90's Era PC to HDMI

[strygo]

What surprised me a bit is that you have stability issues with the Gefen. I can't say that I ever noticed anything like that and I would suspect that it comes down to manual sampling controls.

I think I'm enjoying the hunt more than when I finally find a unit I like.

[strygo]

Fudoh, based on your praise of the Gefen scaler, combined with the oddities I observed with the original power supply, I came to suspect that the device I'd gotten (for $20, as-is) may be defective. It turns out this was true. I picked up another unit on the cheap and this new one behaves much better than the original one.

I've had much better luck with this unit than the Kramer scalers, although I still prefer the Extron RGB 300. Here is my assessment of this device relative to the Extron:

Positives
- Seems to handle 720x400 (DOS) better out of the box (no tweaking necessary)
- Image appears to be slightly more stable, especially DOS text mode

Negatives
- Slower to switch resolutions. Delay is much better than say the Framemeister, but it is noticeably slower than the Extron
- Less flexibility around tuning the display. The Extron has better support for tuning specific resolutions
- Windows resolution (1024x768) is worse. I noticed some overscan artifacts in Windows that I haven't been able to eliminate
- Doesn't handle audio over HDMI. There is a newer model that supports HDMI+audio, so this negative is specific to the model I have

I haven't noticed lag so far, but I haven't specifically tested for this.

As an aside, someone on VOGONS has mentioned they have had success with the XPC-4 in PC scenarios. They happen to use the device in their capturing chain. I've asked them for more info about their experiences. I remain intrigued by this option (perhaps due to the lack of information surrounding it and its overall cost). Anyone here with one able to do any testing?

I've come across a few other higher-end Extron devices that look interesting: the Extron DVS 605 and the Extron DSC 301 HD. Anyone try these?

[strygo]

The person I previously referenced was able to create some screenshots from the XPC-4: http://imgur.com/a/RX11n

I don't have a capture card to do a side-by-side comparison, but I would say the XPC-4 produces an image that is slightly crisper than what I'm seeing with the Extron device.

Interestingly, the Datapath capture card used in the later screenshots on that page produces an even clearer image. I plan to do some more digging on their product line, but does anyone know if they have a comparable scaler product that might be worth testing?

[Fudoh]

Interestingly, the Datapath capture card used in the later screenshots on that page produces an even clearer image.

but the Datapath captures in native resolution and the upscaling is done in postprocessing - something that doesn't actually help you with your setup.

The XPC-4 looks as expected, but don't forget about the price.

[strygo]

RE: Datapath - fair. I've read your review about their monitor splitter - do they have any upscaling products that might produce similar results to this capture card?

RE: XPC-4 - also fair. I'm interested in finding the highest fidelity solution and then will do the exercise to see if I can stomach the price.

[strygo]

My other pursuit has led me to consider the Mimo Genius II for downscaling to a PVM for my 480i/480p signals. I'm still not sure I can get over the price, but given my issues with the Rxi 201 and the general lack of availability of the Emotia, I'm at least considering it.

Reading Fudoh's reviews, the Genius II seems to handle both upscaling and downscaling admirably. Has anyone tried using this device for PC resolution upscaling?

[strygo]

I picked up the Genius II and while it handles downscaling beautifully, it is not a good solution for PC upscaling. Lots of visual artifacts and essentially not functional.

I also grabbed a cheap Lumagen HDQ whose manual claims it can handle scaling PC resolutions. I'm waiting on a power supply but once I have it, I will give it a try and report back.

The XPC4 remains as another candidate for my purposes. A few folks on VOGONS have reported success with the device (including sharing some nice screen caps).

The Extron RGB remains the most functional device I have found. It just works and handles resolution changes nicely. The only major issue is slight noise. I really want something as crisp as the Framemeister.

[strygo]

I finally had some time to test the Vision HDQ, and I have to say, it seems like the most versatile device I have encountered. Apart from some (what I suspect to be) sync issues I'm dealing with, the HDQ handles 240p, 480i, 480p and (most important to this thread) PC resolutions.

The HDQ handles PC resolution changes quite nicely, and although it defaults to 16:9 for each resolution it encounters, it remembers my 4:3 preference for each. It is easily on par with the Extron RGB in terms of usability - I haven't needed to tune anything to get things to work.

The primary knock I have against the RGB is its slight vertical vibration at certain resolutions. It's not terribly noticeable, but once I do notice it, it is hard to ignore. The HDQ on the other hand doesn't have this issue. I see no artifacts and the image is extremely steady.

What I don't like about the HDQ is its lack of audio support. I can certainly combine the DVI-D output with audio, but if I use more than one input of the device, this presents a challenge. (If anyone has thoughts on how to deal with this, I'd love to hear them.)

I'm thinking through the logistics of the routing for this device, but I do think it will make its way into my setup.

[Blair]

strygo, how many sources of audio do you need to combine into your signal? the JEC analog audio switch I'm using can do 5in 1out or or variations on that (like 3in 2out). I usually have this directly connected to a separate audio amp and speakers. Logitech has some pretty good bundles for under $100 that produce great sound with analog sources. but I'm sensing that you want to digitize the signal pump that into a TV (correct?)

[strygo]

strygo, how many sources of audio do you need to combine into your signal? the JEC analog audio switch I'm using can do 5in 1out or or variations on that (like 3in 2out). I usually have this directly connected to a separate audio amp and speakers. Logitech has some pretty good bundles for under $100 that produce great sound with analog sources. but I'm sensing that you want to digitize the signal pump that into a TV (correct?)

Hey Blair, fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) I've been able to route everything via SCART so audio has been carried along with the video signal. Therefore, something like the JEC device you recommend would work: I really only need 2in 1out assuming I go this route. It would only be used to bring together audio from this SCART chain and separately a PC into the Lumagen. I may then route the combined audio + DVI through a Framemeister to my LCD.

I've been meaning to test this, but does anyone know if the Framemeister can combine analog audio with either of the HDMI pass through ports? I've suspected it because I am today using one of the HDMI pass throughs and I've noticed that I need to toggle the button twice to get audio. I'd love to not need yet another device for combining audio and video here.

[Blair]

hi again strygo, I was looking at this guide (http://arekuse.net/blog/my-games/the-ul ... ister-eng/). it seems to indicate that the FrameMeister can mix different analog audio sources into the HDMI signal.

in the menu

AUDIO_SET
AUDIO_LEVEL: adjust the volume level
HDMI_1_AUDIO: choose between audio sources (instead of HDMI_1 use the analog audio from D Terminal). Can be set to HDMI or D.
RGB_AUDIO: select the audio between RGB or VIDEO inputs.

also, from what I remember I think the HDMI input on the frame Meister is always processed to some degree, (I remember there being a discussion about it actually being a true pass-through or not).

[strygo]

Cool, thanks for the info. I could have sworn I had read this somewhere - I bet it was on that site. This will save me the need for an extra converter.

[strygo]

I spent some time playing with this capability of the Framemeister and it has a few downsides:

1) I couldn't get the HDMI passthrough to play nice with the Lumagen. When passthrough is enabled, I couldn't get a signal.
2) When routing the signal through the Framemeister, I ran into some issues with the PC gaming resolutions, whereas when the Lumagen went direct to the LCD, those resolutions would work fine.
3) I was hoping for more flexibility around which audio signals I could mix. You're limited to precisely to what you outlined, so you can't mix HDMI 1 or 2 with say the RGB input.

Given the performance issues, I'm going to be searching for an alternate solution. I'm separately running out of HDMI ports on the LCD, so I'm wondering if there are any HDMI switches that may have these mixing capabilities. Anyone aware of one? Thanks as always.

[orange808]

Hi strygo,

Apologies, I got very ill on my holiday and lost a few weeks. Glad to be back home and out of bed.

The Kramer FC-49 does a good job combining DVI + audio to HDMI. They are fairly compact, so you might consider just using multiple FC-49 units. I have two.

240p timing

Spoiler

https://image.ibb.co/d9u6AQ/IMG_20170414_034008.jpg

[strygo]

Apologies, I got very ill on my holiday and lost a few weeks. Glad to be back home and out of bed.

The Kramer FC-49 does a good job combining DVI + audio to HDMI. They are fairly compact, so you might consider just using multiple FC-49 units. I have two.

Yikes! Sorry to hear that. I hope you're feeling better.

Thanks for sharing the timing. I haven't had a chance to play with the device so this will be a good excuse to give it a try.

I'll also look into this Kramer device. Thanks again for all your pointers!

Steve

[Blair]

Given the performance issues, I'm going to be searching for an alternate solution. I'm separately running out of HDMI ports on the LCD, so I'm wondering if there are any HDMI switches that may have these mixing capabilities. Anyone aware of one? Thanks as always.

I picked up the dvi+audio to HDMI adaptor from mono price (it's was sale for $20) and it does an ok job of combining sound with the video output (I used an OSSC for this test). it does seem to boost volume a bit from what I consider baseline. So you might have to do a bit of adjustment to avoid clipping.

Here's an example I posted in the OSSC thread. that's how it sounds.

Spoiler

OSSC+SEGA CDX direct line4x (scanlines 15%)

LINK:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WVfkzII-sw

(please set video quality to 1080p60)

[strygo]

Interesting. That ones looks physically identical to the much more expensive StarTech.com one. I may check it out.

[strygo]

I picked up that Monoprice HDMI adapter and it worked great. No issues whatsoever.

In other news, I managed to pick up a secondhand, but new XPC-4. Apart from some trouble updating its firmware (which I documented on the main XPC-4 thread), that device handles PC beautifully. I need to do some side-by-side testing of this device with the Lumagen, but so far the XPC-4 handles all of my scenarios very well. Its overscan controls are easier to use to make adjustments than the Lumagen. I seem to recall the Lumagen being able to handle resolution changes a hair more quickly.

[orange808]

Strygo,

What display are you using now? I remember reading your display was giving you "blurry" results on another thread.

Did the XPC-4 give you better results alone or did you also change displays?

[strygo]

What display are you using now? I remember reading your display was giving you "blurry" results on another thread.

I'm still using the Vizio P-50C1 4K display. I've been keeping an eye out for used Sony X900E units, but haven't come across any locally. That display has an option for perfect 1080p to 4K scaling and otherwise seems to be a solid display.

The Vizio is quite good and for all intents and purposes my "blurry" issue is mostly an artifact of my obsessiveness. In practice, at a normal sitting distance, you can't actually discern the slight "blur" that exists and even then, it's only detectable on certain content. The best way to describe the issue is if you have a 720p display (actually a 768p one marketed as 720p) and switch the content from 720p to 768p, the crispness and precision goes up considerably. The upscaled content on this Vizio has similar characteristics. I noticed it most when displaying the ANSI-based menus of the Raspberry Pi. If a pixel-perfect 720p/1080p to 4K affordable scaler emerges, I may check it out, but I'm otherwise content.

In addition to the XPC-4, I also just received an OSSC. The OSSC is quite compatible with the Vizio and all of the noted 'problematic' scales work great on the display. When contrasting the OSSC with the Framemeister, the OSSC seems superior to the Framemeister - clearer and crisper. I have not yet played around with FBX's FM profiles, so I am wondering whether if I switch to those, the gap between the OSSC and the Framemeister will go away. (That being said, from a usability perspective, if I don't need to switch profiles on the OSSC and 'it just works', I would give the OSSC the edge.)

The Lumagen remains the most versatile device I've tested. It handles everything exceptionally well. Its lack of scanline support is my biggest issue with it, and similar to my comments on the OSSC/FM, I think the OSSC may be better for 240p content. I need to do some actual side-by-side tests so I can feel more comfortable with that assertion. Echoing what Fudoh has documented, I've found the Lumagen is a better option for 480p content.

Given that some of these devices have a slight edge in certain scenarios, I'm working on making them all available to my display. I've got a combination of a 1x8 SCART amplifier and an 8x8 VGA matrix switcher that can route everything to my Vizio and my CRTs.