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 Post subject: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:17 pm 


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Location: France
Hi there,

I own two Sony Trinitron CRTs, one is this KV-29FX30B and a 36cm one which I don't have the model# but which is also a grey case Trinitron from the same era.

The problem is both have an issue with CSYNC.

I experienced the same issue with a NTSC-J Saturn and a NTSC-J Super Famicom when using a custom made CSYNC SCART cable: The colors are off when using those cables, and the colors are fine when using LUMA cables. When I plug the SCART in the Framemeister the colors are OK, the issue is with the TVs.

When plugging the SCART, the colors appear correctly for < 1 second then "switch" to greenish image, or it "blinks" constantly switching between normal and greenish.

I thought CRTs that support PAL60 mode would be compatible with CSYNC, am I wrong? Is it a known issue with Sony consumer CRTs?

I'm considering my options:

1/ Buying only LUMA SCART cables since my TVs don't seem to support it
2/ Find a TV that is CSYNC compatible, then I may need some advice on finding it (I live in France, a lot of CRTs are available dirt cheap)
3/ Something may be off with the cables I'm using? Or something may be done in TV service menu?

Thanks for your advice.
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:51 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 231
Do you have a resistor on the sync line of the Csync cable? TVs need 75 Ohm level sync. The consoles output TTL level Csync.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1153623#p1153623


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:44 pm 


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Location: France
paulb_nl wrote:
Do you have a resistor on the sync line of the Csync cable? TVs need 75 Ohm level sync. The consoles output TTL level Csync.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1153623#p1153623

I won't open the cable for now so I mailed the guys who made the cable, i'll keep you updated with their response, thanks for the tip.
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:53 am 


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Got an update, it looks like there is no resistor in there since it's not required according to the manufacturer:
Quote:
Hi Turom

Only the model 2 Saturn cable requires a 75 ohm resistor and 220uF cap on the sync line, as these component are missing from some board revisions of the Saturn 2.

Do you guys think it's related to my issue? Is there a way to troubleshoot it?
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:14 pm 



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 995
Location: Leeds
I think it's primarily an bit of an issue with these kinds of sets; an intolerance. The older black sets do not seem to exhibit the same issue with identical setups.

I have an scart > rgbs breakout box with potentiometers/pots/variable resistors (call them what you will) primarily to fuss around with colors.
I added the sync one when I was using a similar model when using in combination with 360 + emotia...

Turning down the sync stabilized my image and got rid of the green tint on a similar model.

(I generally set the any tv to be a bit over saturated/colourful especially when using emotia since it appears a little desaturated imho, and tone down my rgb using these pots when not using emotia - prevents having to fuss with service menu. You often have similar issues in regards to signal strength when using pcb+supergun setups)

...

These are later model tv's, and I don't think all things are equal, but that 5-10 years younger thing could help longevity at this stage. So up to you if you want to fuss around with pots just for one screen. Though you may find that having such an adjustment box is kind of handy if you have many devices and like to adjust your colors easily (depending on my mood I can be quite picky about these)... so I'd kind of recommend it in general.

However, off the shelf you may just find it easier to get another tv if you're not as picky about adjusting such things.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:51 pm 


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I don't believe this is an issue with the color adjustment of the screen since when I use LUMA SCART the colors are perfect.

And even more frustrating thing is when I plug the CSYNC SCART in from my Super Famicom, the colors appear normal like for 1 second, then the image blinks and shifts to green.

It's like there's not enough power to maintain the image or that some capacitor charges up and screws the color encoding after a second.

I excluded my SCART switch to be the problem since the issue is the same when I plug the SCART directly into the TV.

Maybe I should try on another brand's CRT? I really though Sony Trinitrons were popular for retrogaming setups, i'm surprised nobody had the issue before with CSYNC...
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:57 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
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Turom wrote:
Got an update, it looks like there is no resistor in there since it's not required according to the manufacturer:
Quote:
Hi Turom

Only the model 2 Saturn cable requires a 75 ohm resistor and 220uF cap on the sync line, as these component are missing from some board revisions of the Saturn 2.

Do you guys think it's related to my issue? Is there a way to troubleshoot it?


It seems the cable seller is misunderstanding the issue. Did you read the link I posted? The SNES needs a resistor of about 330 Ohms at the console end and the Saturn needs a resistor of about 470 Ohms at the console end.

You will damage your TV sooner or later if you use a cable that outputs TTL level sync.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:05 pm 


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Location: France
paulb_nl wrote:
It seems the cable seller is misunderstanding the issue. Did you read the link I posted? The SNES needs a resistor of about 330 Ohms at the console end and the Saturn needs a resistor of about 470 Ohms at the console end.

You will damage your TV sooner or later if you use a cable that outputs TTL level sync.

Yes I've read it though there may be a misunderstanding. I sent another message for clarification.

Is the lack of those resistors would produce such symptoms as color shift? Is it common on the custom SCART cable market to have this design issue?
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:25 am 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 231
I'm not sure what the symptoms would be but without those resistors the voltage will be too high for your TV so it can cause any kind of issues.

Most of the cable schematics online do not include how to connect Csync. Composite video sync and Luma sync are mostly directly connected without components so people just did the same for Csync and sometimes that works. I don't know if its common but some cable sellers might not know this.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:34 pm 



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 995
Location: Leeds
Turom wrote:
I don't believe this is an issue with the color adjustment of the screen since when I use LUMA SCART the colors are perfect.


That wasn't my point. I had the breakout box for slight color adjustments, but (instead of adjusting color - RGB) what needed to be adjusted was the sync (S) ... it's only been with this kind of tv model that I've run into such sensitivity/intolerence in this regard.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:44 pm 


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gray117 wrote:
Turom wrote:
I don't believe this is an issue with the color adjustment of the screen since when I use LUMA SCART the colors are perfect.


That wasn't my point. I had the breakout box for slight color adjustments, but (instead of adjusting color - RGB) what needed to be adjusted was the sync (S) ... it's only been with this kind of tv model that I've run into such sensitivity/intolerence in this regard.

Ah I see, sorry I didn't get it right the first time.

Can this kind of box which let you tune the Sync power be found online easily? This could maybe help me solve the issue.

I will get a LUMA cable for now since I don't have much choice, this will do the job while I find a better alternative.

BTW which CSYNC SCART cable seller would you recommend so I could try one and see if it's the cable design or my TV?
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:26 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 174
What happens if you try composite video for sync? I've said before that's what's commonly used in Europe.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:30 pm 



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
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theclaw wrote:
What happens if you try composite video for sync? I've said before that's what's commonly used in Europe.


ah I assume this is what happening - afaik this is how the signal comes out of saturn*? (*maybe not depending on cable/model... after a quick google there's all kinds of variants and even a seperated c-sync pin on saturn output? ... )

Annoying if this is the cause; but claw could be right - you may well be better off with non-seperated (from video) sync on these tvs...


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:37 pm 


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theclaw wrote:
What happens if you try composite video for sync? I've said before that's what's commonly used in Europe.

I use regularly a PAL Wii console with the official SCART cable, I believe this one is Composite Sync? Got no issue with this one, image is great.
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:47 pm 



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
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Location: Leeds
Turom wrote:
theclaw wrote:
What happens if you try composite video for sync? I've said before that's what's commonly used in Europe.

I use regularly a PAL Wii console with the official SCART cable, I believe this one is Composite Sync? Got no issue with this one, image is great.



The terminology may not be 100% clear here :) ... on the pin 20 you can have:

i) CSYNC only (think theclaw is suggesting this maybe problematic for this tv - often people are after this 'clean' composite sync to feed to scalers/splitters etc. since it's technically the 'pure' csync signal only...)
ii) CYSNC + luma (You've suggested this works fine for certain consoles/cables?)
iii) CSYNC + video (what comes out on scart device normally think theclaw is suggesting this is why some of your other consoles/cables are working fine)

It has never occurred to me that the tv might be happy with ii) and iii), but unhappy with i) .... Most of the time *if* you have a problem the solution turns out to get i) ... it *might* be different in this case though :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:33 pm 


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gray117 wrote:
The terminology may not be 100% clear here :) ... on the pin 20 you can have:

i) CSYNC only (think theclaw is suggesting this maybe problematic for this tv - often people are after this 'clean' composite sync to feed to scalers/splitters etc. since it's technically the 'pure' csync signal only...)
ii) CYSNC + luma (You've suggested this works fine for certain consoles/cables?)
iii) CSYNC + video (what comes out on scart device normally think theclaw is suggesting this is why some of your other consoles/cables are working fine)

It has never occurred to me that the tv might be happy with ii) and iii), but unhappy with i) .... Most of the time *if* you have a problem the solution turns out to get i) ... it *might* be different in this case though :)

Thanks for the input. From my experiment with my setup:

- My PAL Wii with official SCART (which is case iii) in your list I believe) works fine both on the TV and on the Framemeister.
- My NTSC-J Saturn model 2 had a color shift on the Trinitron CRT with a "pure" CSYNC cable (case i) in your list) and not on the Framemeister. Replacing the cable by a LUMA cable (case ii) on your list) solved the issue and it works great on both the TV and the Framemeister.
- Just got a type i) "pure" CSYNC cable for my NTSC-J 1-CHIP-02 Super Famicom and I experience the same color shift that I had back then with the Saturn cable.

You're probably right, maybe the TV is intolerant with the pure CSYNC way, I'm just surprised the issue is not better documented, especially since it happens on two different CRTs I own.

I'm looking up on the web if I can get some other cheap Sony CRTs near my town so I can have more test cases. Meanwhile I asked the cable seller to make a LUMA cable and see if that works like the Saturn cable did.
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:48 pm 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 174
Okay... we are talking about TVs sold at every shop for normal European consumers, right?
If your TV fits that descriptor, give composite video a chance.

I'd spare the effort hunting for specialty cables until after you've established a need for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:33 am 


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theclaw wrote:
Okay... we are talking about TVs sold at every shop for normal European consumers, right?
If your TV fits that descriptor, give composite video a chance.

I'd spare the effort hunting for specialty cables until after you've established a need for them.

Yea those are standard consumer TVs.

A LUMA cable is on the way, I'll post results once I receive it in a few days.
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:08 am 


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Took longer than expected, but I received the LUMA cable and it works like a charm.

My two Trinitron TVs just don't like CSYNC, and looks like I'm not the only one with the same color issue. I'll just stick on LUMA cables for now and save a lot of trouble...
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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:42 am 



Joined: 01 Jan 2018
Posts: 10
Same problem here kv29cl11k.... have you ever find a fix for this? Ps pushing code "34" in green words service menu fix this colours problem a little.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:47 pm 


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Consumer CRTs were never designed to use csync, sure it works it most instances, but in some cases it causes all types of headaches.

Poor color and a dull screen with Sony sets.

The later models of LG think that you are trying to run svideo if you use csync and give you a black and white picture.
Their jungles require the "busy" composite video signal to clean and switch. Csync looks a lot like Luma, and I'm guessing Luma wont work for these sets either

The only reason to use a csync cable is to avoid comp video interference on the RGB lines, but you'll never notice this on a crt, only something like the OSSC.


Csync for LCD, Comp sync for CRT IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:55 pm 


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Turom wrote:
Hi there,

I own two Sony Trinitron CRTs, one is this KV-29FX30B and a 36cm one which I don't have the model# but which is also a grey case Trinitron from the same era.

The problem is both have an issue with CSYNC.

I experienced the same issue with a NTSC-J Saturn and a NTSC-J Super Famicom when using a custom made CSYNC SCART cable: The colors are off when using those cables, and the colors are fine when using LUMA cables. When I plug the SCART in the Framemeister the colors are OK, the issue is with the TVs.


Interesting, I have a Sony KV-21C5B and it has no issues in either Composite Video as Sync, Sync on Luma nor CSYNC (at least none as far as I noticed)


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:23 pm 



Joined: 01 Jan 2018
Posts: 10
Csync (YELLOW everywhere)
Image

Csync "34" code ( better but RED is almost orange)
Image

Original colours ( internet, unfortunately I do not have a cable without csync)
Image

Wher could I find a sync on luma cable for snes mini jr RGB mod and sega?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:55 am 



Joined: 26 Feb 2017
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Hi There. I posted last year in the thread linked by TUROM about this very issue. I can see some interesting points made on this thread about this issue. Has ANYONE figured out a FIX for this, or are we all still using LUMA cables or standard rgb cables with out CRT's still?

I'd love a fix, as I am getting a Sega Genesis (Megadrive) Model 1 va2, and I want the best quality output from it, but I'm not seeing Luma Sync rgb cables for sale anywhere! Only standard RGB or CSYNC.

Can ANYONE help me on this??

Thanks -


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:29 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 174
Air42 wrote:
Hi There. I posted last year in the thread linked by TUROM about this very issue. I can see some interesting points made on this thread about this issue. Has ANYONE figured out a FIX for this, or are we all still using LUMA cables or standard rgb cables with out CRT's still?

I'd love a fix, as I am getting a Sega Genesis (Megadrive) Model 1 va2, and I want the best quality output from it, but I'm not seeing Luma Sync rgb cables for sale anywhere! Only standard RGB or CSYNC.

Can ANYONE help me on this??

Thanks -


Most models of the Genesis (or Master System) do not output Luma.

Wondermega s-video is an exception to that.
...which introduces a different problem. There are Wondermega versions without RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Trinitron CRT CSYNC compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:15 am 


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Air42 wrote:
Hi There. I posted last year in the thread linked by TUROM about this very issue. I can see some interesting points made on this thread about this issue. Has ANYONE figured out a FIX for this, or are we all still using LUMA cables or standard rgb cables with out CRT's still?

I'd love a fix, as I am getting a Sega Genesis (Megadrive) Model 1 va2, and I want the best quality output from it, but I'm not seeing Luma Sync rgb cables for sale anywhere! Only standard RGB or CSYNC.

Can ANYONE help me on this??Thanks -

Depending on your consumer WEGA model, CSYNC can behave perfectly fine so you may just gamble and take the standard CSYNC option and be good with it, with the risk that your TV doesn't like it and having to search for another cable.

I'm surprised they reduced the options on retrogaming-cables and retro-access, though they're nice people so if you contact them directly they may be kind enough to craft you a sync-on-composite RGB cable if your setup is having issues with CSYNC. You can't get LUMA cables for the Mega Drive though as it doesn't support S-Video and it's required for LUMA, that's the trick used for SNES and SAT LUMA cables.

Personally my entire setup is now pro-grade (PVM/BVM) so CSYNC is fine but I understand this issue is frustrating.

I also think the differences between a RGB cable either with sync-on-composite-video/luma/csync won't be so much noticeable on a consumer CRT, but may be more an issue on a pro-monitor.
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