OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

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kel
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by kel »

retrorgb wrote:
kel wrote:Well you tell me what the argument is about then, cause it seems to be your argument. My only point is that none of this is necessary. Markus doesn't owe us anything, open source or not IMHO.
Let me break it down for you:

The good:
- Markus has created a great product. He doesn't owe anyone anything. We're all huge fans of his work.
- Becker looks like he created an awesome extension of that product. I'm happy it's out there.
- Matt has done an excellent job getting all of this together and took a giant risk by investing into these. It's many of our opinions that his current distribution model could be more efficient for everyone, including him. Matt seems to agree. I should not have brought that up here, but I felt it was important enough to address. I've praised his website and store for years (and continue to do so) and I expect whatever he chooses to do will be what's best overall.

The debate (the only debate):
The product is called the "open source" scan converter, but is not actually open source: It's a scan converter with open source firmware. It kicks ass and I love it, but the name is confusing, as is Markus' stance on it. It would be nice if Markus posted here and said:

- It's closed-source, it's my design, I'll call it whatever I want and sell it any way I want. Maybe I'll share some files, but it's a closed source project and completely up to me.

or

- It's open source. Here's the licence it's under. Here's the github for everything.

or

- It's closed source now. I'll open source it when I'm done with it. There's no timeframe for that.


Any of those answers is 100% okay by everyone posting here (who knows what they're talking about). Even the huge fans of open source completely respect closed-source projects and totally support people wanting to make a living off selling their products (I really do hope Markus made a good amount of money from this, as he deserves it). The people here are just asking for clarity on what this project actually is: Open or closed.

Is that clear enough?
Wow you really put some work into that reply :D . It was more a rhetorical question, as in I already got the point so if you are saying that I have no idea what the argument is about then there must be something you know that I don't know, obviously not. Maybe I didn't punctuate it properly :shock:

Even with the reiteration my opinion is still the same as before, that none of this was necessary over a technicality regarding whether or not the OSSC can be deemed %100 open source just because the kicad files were not released but sadly my opinion does not seem to fit into "the only debate" so you chose to conclude that I didn't know what the argument was about.

No worries anyway :D Markus has said that he will reconsider releasing the kicad files now. So the open source police can sleep soundly in their beds 8)
RGB0b
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by RGB0b »

Wow. What a douche. Thanks for reminding me why I try to never post on forums. I'll go back to lurking and not posting. Topic unsubscribed.
kel
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by kel »

Now now, no need for nasty words :D I thought this was supposed to be a natural and productive debate. Take it easy dude, I wish you well even if we don't see eye to eye.
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eric90000
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by eric90000 »

BuckoA51 wrote: I'm not prepared to take peoples money and just sit on it in my bank account.


Image

:lol: :lol: :lol: you might not get this if you aren't from UK/Ireland.

I think you've been doing a pretty good job Bucko. I signed up to the mailing list and got an OSSC in batch 2, sure the ordering system could have been better but it wasn't that bad. It was obvious that you were trying to provide as efficient a service as you could. That trycelery thing looks very promising, I've seen Bob mention that before on one of the podcasts.

Anyway, it seems like you're coming under fire for licensing info that should only really be answerable by Marqs (which seems he has). At the end of the day you distribute them, you didn't design the things. I definitely agree that the more open source this thing is the better....there's a lot of talent in this community who already have a tonne of experience with other projects.

Speaking of talent, this would be a pretty great topic for the next Retro Round Table podcast! :)
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becker
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by becker »

Hi Folks.

I realize I came out of nowhere with this project. I am an unknown and several people got upset by lack of information.
I am a fan of Marqs' work but I do not know him. I asked him a few technical questions a few months ago when I was drawing the schematic. I complimented him for making the firmware and schematic public. I also complimented him for taking the time to respond to a couple technical inquires. We messaged maybe 6 times in 6 months. I do not have insider information or files.
I made the Wolf edition alone using just the schematic PDF. It's still a lot of work, but if you want to copy a circuit board, all you need is the schematic. The schematic has been public for a long time.

OSSC DIY v1.5 Schematic https://www.niksula.hut.fi/~mhiienka/os ... ematic.pdf

The most valuable, important and unique part of the OSSC is the firmware. The firmware is open-source.

https://github.com/marqs85/ossc

The firmware is the special sauce that makes off-the-shelf components (that anyone can buy) work together to make the OSSC.
The needed pieces to recreate the OSSC have been public for a long time. The kicad files would save someone time but are not needed to make an OSSC.
borti4938

Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by borti4938 »

becker, first of all thanks for sharing your thoughts on an alternative OSSC edition and putting your knowledge base into designing the PCB for it! GREAT :)
becker wrote: [...], but if you want to copy a circuit board, all you need is the schematic. The schematic has been public for a long time.

[...] The firmware is open-source.
THIS! This is also the reason why I never got the argument "the circuit-board file is not open as 'we' don't want to have Chinese make 'cheap' copies of the OSSC." To be honest, if a Chinese company wants to put a OSSC-copy on the market it should be a peace of cake for them having schematics and firmware.
retrorgb wrote:He was always willing to send the gerbers to anyone who wanted to make their own, but wouldn't send the verilog or kicad files.
Verilog is part of the firmware.
KiCad files can be get from Markus, too, if you want to 'play' with it. :)
marqs wrote:I never guessed that this would generate so much controversy since I expected that most people are happy to have a place to buy PCBs and schematics if they want to design their own model. Now that this seems to be a big deal for many, I have to reconsider about releasing those Kicad sources. After all, ossc is and will be free-time project for me so I'd hate to see people spending lots of time arguing about licenses and such.
Thank you for these words... the best post after post #1 in this thread :)
deltronik
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by deltronik »

eric90000 wrote:
BuckoA51 wrote: I'm not prepared to take peoples money and just sit on it in my bank account.


Image

:lol: :lol: :lol: you might not get this if you aren't from UK/Ireland.

LOL!! I literally just discovered Father Ted! It's one of my fecking favorites now!


On topic, this project looks great and as a current owner of the OSSC, I am exited to see new developments based on it's design. I don't have any need or want for integrated audio, but it seems like a lot of us want this feature.

Good Luck!
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by Xyga »

Drink! :x

*goes back to sleep*
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deruji
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by deruji »

becker wrote:Hi Folks.

I realize I came out of nowhere with this project. I am an unknown and several people got upset by lack of information.
I am a fan of Marqs' work but I do not know him. I asked him a few technical questions a few months ago when I was drawing the schematic. I complimented him for making the firmware and schematic public. I also complimented him for taking the time to respond to a couple technical inquires. We messaged maybe 6 times in 6 months. I do not have insider information or files.
I made the Wolf edition alone using just the schematic PDF. It's still a lot of work, but if you want to copy a circuit board, all you need is the schematic. The schematic has been public for a long time.

OSSC DIY v1.5 Schematic https://www.niksula.hut.fi/~mhiienka/os ... ematic.pdf

The most valuable, important and unique part of the OSSC is the firmware. The firmware is open-source.

https://github.com/marqs85/ossc

The firmware is the special sauce that makes off-the-shelf components (that anyone can buy) work together to make the OSSC.
The needed pieces to recreate the OSSC have been public for a long time. The kicad files would save someone time but are not needed to make an OSSC.
Hi, I already have the OSSC, but like what you are doing as an alternative for others.
Perhaps you might consider adding this to the first post, so that it can be found immediately?
dariodb
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by dariodb »

Count me in! Do I just follow this thread and wait for further announcements?
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lettuce
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by lettuce »

becker, will your revision allow for great compatibility for x3,x4 and x5 modes on TV's?
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becker
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by becker »

lettuce wrote:becker, will your revision allow for great compatibility for x3,x4 and x5 modes on TV's?
It will have the same compatibility as the original. The video circuit and firmware is the same.
CaveManGamer
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by CaveManGamer »

Awesome work, becker. This certainly adds to our options and makes your project more easily to integrate into our setups. The ossc is great, but it added challenges to my setup, not to mention a birds nest of wires. Definitely keep us posted on your progress.

Kind of disappointed how this thread turned from celebratory in nature, to downright embarrassing. There are obvious flaws with the ossc's availability and licensing agreement, and I agree that these questions are valid and should be asked. Bob made some great points about the nature of this being open source and it is important that people know what they're getting themselves into, before taking on a project like this. As far as the ossc's availability, yeah that's a problem and yes there are better methods to preorders, but I also understand that marqs is one guy and Matt from videogameperfection is not a big company, so we shouldn't expect instant availability. What I will say, is that those on the waiting list who missed their emails and social media alerts on the last batch, should be placed at the end of the list; there's too many people who have shown interest early on who are still waiting for an invite. Otherwise, I think Matt's doing a great job organizing shipments, keeping everyone informed and testing units. It's obvious that many are frustrated, but let's try to remember what we're really trying to do here and share. We all love video games, thats why we're here, so lets keep evolving and improving this community rather than trolling one another.

Again, becker major thumbs up! keep doing what you're doing
Krissyme1
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by Krissyme1 »

Hi Becker,

Put me on the list for one of these. It looks amazing. I love that you thought about cable management and audio integration.

Please give us better VGA image processing, the original OSSC was the worst I've ever seen the Dreamcast look through VGA. (with the exception of those cheap tomee cables) Maybe I've been spoiled by the Toro, but Ikaruga on a VGA monitor is Sublime. (in my opinion)

My advice on the casing would be to make it two pieces of acrylic, like the behar bros. products use, and the gscart switch and the original OSSC. Makes it easy to blast the dust out with a compressor or some canned air, which tends to improve the longevity of these products (in my opinion).

My only note on this would be to add fiber optic digital audio in (Toslink) instead of or in addition to RCA. Both the PS2 and Original Xbox (if you have the right cables for the Xbox) can output digital audio over Fiber optic only and the five or so fiber optic to RCA digital audio converters I've tried are absolute garbage. (If anyone knows a good one, send me a link to it.)
If we had both inputs it would make Wolf 100% plug-n-play for me.

That being said, this project is a thousand times more interesting to me as a completed retail product than the original OSSC.

Thank you for all your hard work

Kris
headlesshobbs
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by headlesshobbs »

I can only liken this to growing pains in terms of what you've accomplished as a community so far.

I'm not sure where my old post went at, but a few years ago I was griping about how scalers and such were either too expensive or didn't get the job done right and it's funny that today we're finally at that point where someone who's a gamer themself is finally addressing this issue. I can only look forward to what's next to come long as everyone is willing to keep at it for the long term.
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by neorichieb1971 »

If this was my project I'd make the box much bigger. Have 5 scart inputs and 5 component inputs and 1 VGA input in the back and have a toggle on the front for the input you want.

I know people here like having 10 boxes plugged into each other. But for those who have home theatre type setups where everything is neat, in its place. It just makes sense to have a solution that doesn't involve leaning over your equipment, reaching behind a dusty spaghetti junction cluster of cables and trying to find the hole where there is little light.

Just saying.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
h1ghju1ce
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by h1ghju1ce »

neorichieb1971 wrote:If this was my project I'd make the box much bigger. Have 5 scart inputs and 5 component inputs and 1 VGA input in the back and have a toggle on the front for the input you want.

I know people here like having 10 boxes plugged into each other. But for those who have home theatre type setups where everything is neat, in its place. It just makes sense to have a solution that doesn't involve leaning over your equipment, reaching behind a dusty spaghetti junction cluster of cables and trying to find the hole where there is little light.

Just saying.

Maybe someone might make a version like that one day, but I suspect you'll then be the 1st to comment and complain about how much it costs :wink:
ZellSF
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by ZellSF »

Just to reply to the interest check: I already have a OSSC, audio goes from my gscartsw directly to my AVR and I see no need to involve more devices in that chain and all my stuff is wired for SCART, so LPF on VGA is pretty useless to me. So not interested at all.
neorichieb1971 wrote:If this was my project I'd make the box much bigger. Have 5 scart inputs and 5 component inputs and 1 VGA input in the back and have a toggle on the front for the input you want.

I know people here like having 10 boxes plugged into each other. But for those who have home theatre type setups where everything is neat, in its place. It just makes sense to have a solution that doesn't involve leaning over your equipment, reaching behind a dusty spaghetti junction cluster of cables and trying to find the hole where there is little light.

Just saying.
That sounds like it would be much, much more expensive and useless for the people who don't need it. Not talking about the people with switchers here, but the people who only connect one console at a time. And really, the people who connect a lot of consoles might have different needs, with 5 SCART inputs some people will have to buy SCART switches anyway, it's not saving them a lot of money. With just 1 VGA input, some people would still need to buy VGA switches.

With the current solution, everyone just pays for what they need, in form of external equipment. With your way, everyone would pay for what only some of the users need. Sure, those users would save a bit of money, but at the expense of making it more expensive for everyone else. I don't see that as a good business strategy.

If your home theater setup is so neat and tidy, you should have a place for hidden away for passive devices anyway.
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by Nrg »

Where can I place the order? :)
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by BuckoA51 »

Please give us better VGA image processing, the original OSSC was the worst I've ever seen the Dreamcast look through VGA. (with the exception of those cheap tomee cables) Maybe I've been spoiled by the Toro, but Ikaruga on a VGA monitor is Sublime. (in my opinion)
You too huh? Well that makes two. We need to get to the bottom of these reports because the Dreamcast should (and indeed does) look perfect with the OSSC, better than any basic VGA to HDMI box.
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by Wolf_ »

Would this allow for the playing the ps2 over scart and making the signal RGsB 480p and adjusting the scale as well with 0 lag?

Can spdif be selected as the audio input even if your scart cable carries audio?

Does converting the signal from analogue to digital add any lag?
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becker
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by becker »

Wolf_ wrote:Would this allow for the playing the ps2 over scart and making the signal RGsB 480p and adjusting the scale as well with 0 lag?

Can spdif be selected as the audio input even if your scart cable carries audio?

Does converting the signal from analogue to digital add any lag?
The video processing is the same as the original OSSC. I think PS2 was one of the most compatitible systems. Marqs has done a lot of firmware work making the OSSC compatible with most systems. There is no frame buffer so it's considered zero lag.
Video and audio inputs can be selected separately so scart video does not need to use scart audio.
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DoctorPain99
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by DoctorPain99 »

Krissyme1 wrote:My only note on this would be to add fiber optic digital audio in (Toslink) instead of or in addition to RCA. Both the PS2 and Original Xbox (if you have the right cables for the Xbox) can output digital audio over Fiber optic only and the five or so fiber optic to RCA digital audio converters I've tried are absolute garbage. (If anyone knows a good one, send me a link to it.)
If we had both inputs it would make Wolf 100% plug-n-play for me.
I'm struggling to even think of a console that has a digital coaxial audio output, so I'm not sure what purpose such a port would serve. A digital optical audio input would make more sense I think. Why was the decision made to go with digital coax instead?
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becker
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by becker »

DoctorPain99 wrote:
Krissyme1 wrote:My only note on this would be to add fiber optic digital audio in (Toslink) instead of or in addition to RCA. Both the PS2 and Original Xbox (if you have the right cables for the Xbox) can output digital audio over Fiber optic only and the five or so fiber optic to RCA digital audio converters I've tried are absolute garbage. (If anyone knows a good one, send me a link to it.)
If we had both inputs it would make Wolf 100% plug-n-play for me.
I'm struggling to even think of a console that has a digital coaxial audio output, so I'm not sure what purpose such a port would serve. A digital optical audio input would make more sense I think. Why was the decision made to go with digital coax instead?
The coax audio was just a freebee. The 6 pack RCA had a yellow jack left over. I can't process composite video so I hooked it to the spdif pin of the hdmi transmitter. The choices were leave a jack unused or connect it to something else. Adding pcb traces is free so I connected it. I agree it's uncommon and probably won't get used much.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by orange808 »

BuckoA51 wrote:
Please give us better VGA image processing, the original OSSC was the worst I've ever seen the Dreamcast look through VGA. (with the exception of those cheap tomee cables) Maybe I've been spoiled by the Toro, but Ikaruga on a VGA monitor is Sublime. (in my opinion)
You too huh? Well that makes two. We need to get to the bottom of these reports because the Dreamcast should (and indeed does) look perfect with the OSSC, better than any basic VGA to HDMI box.
Agreed. The OSSC trumps the simple Chinese ones.

The only better option for direct RGBHV to HDMI transcoding is the Extron DVC RGB HD A--and that's hardly a simple or common device. It does has the noise filter, embeds audio from day one, and the config software. On the other hand, the Extron cannot line double.
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by Guspaz »

Converting S/PDIF TOSLINK to coax is cheap, easy, and lossless: Monoprice charges $10 for the adapter, and since there's no format conversion (it's S/PDIF to S/PDIF), it should be lossless.
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by BuckoA51 »

The adapter requires a external PSU though, not a big problem but I'd rather see S/PDIF too, but maybe the connectors are harder to source?
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by becker »

I will look into changing the RCA SPDIF to optical. I think the board needs to grow. It's compact for no good reason.
I usually read and respond from my phone so its hard for me to type much or do quotes and links. Maybe I can get home early enough to use a proper computer tonight. I need to edit the first post for clarity.
I send the board to the fab last night. It will come in 10 days. I don't know when I can assemble it. I fully expect it to have issues and a couple revisions before release.
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by Talkurt »

Consider this another vote for 240p downscaling (for a substantial price bump) And a future order. :)
Last edited by Talkurt on Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Seraphic
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Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI

Post by Seraphic »

Interested in one too.
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