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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:37 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 577
Lawfer wrote:
2. Can it convert S-Video to RGB or YPbPr?

Maybe? If anything, a daughter board would likely be able to decode and digitize composite and/or S-Video and feed it directly to the OSSC's video processing pipeline (to put it in simple terms).

If the Wolf OSSC will also be capable of outputting YPbPr or RGB, then I imagine you would ultimately be able to effectively get YPbPr and/or RGB from S-Video.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:19 am 


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Joined: 30 May 2016
Posts: 59
Location: USA - West Coast
Omnigamer wrote:
One thing I'm curious about though - did you (or anybody else, for that matter) look into the ADV7842 as an option for the primary or daughtercard encoder? On paper it has a lot of great features (all variety of analog inputs, 2x HDMI, configurable cleaning/processing), albeit at a higher cost. I'm planning to get an eval board for testing soon, but wanted to know if you had any additional knowledge about the part that would make it unsuitable for retro consoles.


The downfall of most encoders has been non support or unknown support of 240p.
I looked at the ADV7842 and it does not mention going as low as 240p. It is also intimidating to prototype. It is a BGA and uses RAM which needs length matched traces. BGA packages need a stencil and reflow oven. I know you can build ovens but I still do not have one.
I also lack the programming skill to do such a project myself which has been my biggest downfall. I am just a pcb designer trying to apply my skills towards something interesting. I thought these would turn into a community effort but that has not been the case.

Lawfer wrote:
1. Does this Wolf Edition have the same capabilities with the PSP that the regular OSSC has?
2. Can it convert/transcode S-Video to RGB and/or YPbPr?
3. Will you be able to buy pre-made/pre-assembled units online (like the regular OSSC that's available from VGP) or it's gonna be DIY stuff?


1. I do not know. Probably yes.
2. The current setup is outputting HDMI.
3. I do not currently have plans to build anything. I have a newborn on the way and money is tight right now. Hobbies like this fall to the wayside.

Galdelico wrote:
'Stupid questions' guy here. :D

Apologies, should I have missed you giving this information already, in the past: do you plan designing a proper case/shell - similar to the Framemeister, as an example - for your OSSC, or will it have the usual sandwich layout?

I am currently working on my final design (a different layout of the original OSSC) which could be put into an extruded aluminum housing. Basically I kept all connectors and LCD facing forward and backward with space on the sides to go into rails. It does not fit an existing off-the-shelf housing so it would have be to ordered in bulk or nothing at all.
My motivation is to be able to use all my parts I bought two years ago when I first revealed the Wolf. I need to prove to my wife I didn't blow our savings on something that didn't get built. I also hooked it up like the original OSSC on purpose so it uses the same firmware. It does have a WiFi/Blutooth module attached because I was curious about controlling it with an Android app. But it will work like normal without the module attached.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:54 pm 


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Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 571
Location: Finland
becker wrote:
The downfall of most encoders has been non support or unknown support of 240p.
I looked at the ADV7842 and it does not mention going as low as 240p. It is also intimidating to prototype. It is a BGA and uses RAM which needs length matched traces. BGA packages need a stencil and reflow oven. I know you can build ovens but I still do not have one.
I also lack the programming skill to do such a project myself which has been my biggest downfall. I am just a pcb designer trying to apply my skills towards something interesting. I thought these would turn into a community effort but that has not been the case.
I'm afraid the boards as-is already are a bit intimidating to prototype for many, and an expensive hard-to-build BGA daugtercard would be even more so. Your Terasic daugtercard adapter might help lowering the entry bar a bit, though, since Terasic just recently released an inexpensive DE10-Nano kit which could be well utilized to prototype with the daughercards. It has a fairly powerful FPGA with a hard ARM core, SDRAM (e.g. for optional framebuffer), ADV7513 HDMI TX and 2pcs 2x20-pin GPIO connectors (with dedicated clock pins) where one could connect those daughtercards.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:30 am 



Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 40
marqs wrote:
becker wrote:
The downfall of most encoders has been non support or unknown support of 240p.
I looked at the ADV7842 and it does not mention going as low as 240p. It is also intimidating to prototype. It is a BGA and uses RAM which needs length matched traces. BGA packages need a stencil and reflow oven. I know you can build ovens but I still do not have one.
I also lack the programming skill to do such a project myself which has been my biggest downfall. I am just a pcb designer trying to apply my skills towards something interesting. I thought these would turn into a community effort but that has not been the case.
I'm afraid the boards as-is already are a bit intimidating to prototype for many, and an expensive hard-to-build BGA daugtercard would be even more so. Your Terasic daugtercard adapter might help lowering the entry bar a bit, though, since Terasic just recently released an inexpensive DE10-Nano kit which could be well utilized to prototype with the daughercards. It has a fairly powerful FPGA with a hard ARM core, SDRAM (e.g. for optional framebuffer), ADV7513 HDMI TX and 2pcs 2x20-pin GPIO connectors (with dedicated clock pins) where one could connect those daughtercards.


I'm afraid ADV7842 doesn't support pixel-perfect sampling of composite/svideo input from retro gear, because it always samples at the fixed PAL/NTSC resolution, which isn't optimal. It's the same with RetroTink-2X, it always samples the analog video at the fixed resolution, so can't get pixel-perfect results like we're used to with OSSC.

The issue isn't only related to ADV7842 though. All the composite/svideo digitizer ICs I've found always assume the fixed PAL/NTSC resolution for composite/svideo input, and it can't be changed/configured.

I guess the most flexible (and hardest to implement) is to use some generic ADC chip and process/decode the analog video manually in the FPGA. Does someone know of a suitable ready-made dual-channel ADC board (with samplerate of at least 40 MSPS) that one could connect to for example Terasic DE10-Nano board (2x20 pin GPIO connector) ?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:04 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 40
marqs wrote:
Your Terasic daugtercard adapter might help lowering the entry bar a bit, though, since Terasic just recently released an inexpensive DE10-Nano kit which could be well utilized to prototype with the daughercards. It has a fairly powerful FPGA with a hard ARM core, SDRAM (e.g. for optional framebuffer), ADV7513 HDMI TX and 2pcs 2x20-pin GPIO connectors (with dedicated clock pins) where one could connect those daughtercards.


Hmm, what's this "Terasic daughtercard adapter" ? I can't find any mentions about it.. but I'm curious, as that sounds like an interesting thing to have/use :) I do have DE10-Nano aswell..


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:54 pm 


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Joined: 30 May 2016
Posts: 59
Location: USA - West Coast
Nrg wrote:
marqs wrote:
Your Terasic daugtercard adapter might help lowering the entry bar a bit, though, since Terasic just recently released an inexpensive DE10-Nano kit which could be well utilized to prototype with the daughercards. It has a fairly powerful FPGA with a hard ARM core, SDRAM (e.g. for optional framebuffer), ADV7513 HDMI TX and 2pcs 2x20-pin GPIO connectors (with dedicated clock pins) where one could connect those daughtercards.


Hmm, what's this "Terasic daughtercard adapter" ? I can't find any mentions about it.. but I'm curious, as that sounds like an interesting thing to have/use :) I do have DE10-Nano aswell..


I made a board for connecting my other daughter cards to a DE10 nano.
https://circuitmaker.com/Projects/Details/Randy-Beckemeyer/OSSC-Wolf-Terasic-Adapter
I was hoping it would be useful to someone. There is also an hdmi receiver board. I wanted to make an hdmi to hdmi ossc scaler for these newer mods like the gameboy advance hdmi from Woozle.
https://workspace.circuitmaker.com/Projects/Details/Randy-Beckemeyer/OSSC-Wolf-Geri


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:18 pm 


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Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 571
Location: Finland
becker wrote:
I made a board for connecting my other daughter cards to a DE10 nano.
https://circuitmaker.com/Projects/Detai ... ic-Adapter
The adapter originally was for DE2-115, right? It's still compatible with DE10-Nano, but with small changes it could be made more optimal for it. DE10-Nano doesn't have SMA clock input, but instead some of the GPIO connector pins are routed to FPGA clock inputs. GPIO_0_D0, GPIO_0_D16 and GPIO_1_D0 are connected to CLK*P pins which should be suitable for single-ended clocks, assuming they're not routed too close to other signal lines (I wouldn't connect any signals to respective CLK*N pins at the same time just in case the traces go next to each other to comply with differential signaling). DE10-Nano also doesn't have a configurable clock generator, so it might be a good idea to add a Si5351C on the adapter board so that it could be used with DE10-Nano as well (in addition to Wolf where it lies on the mainboard). If the adapter was conntected to GPIO_0 block, then GPIO_0_D0 and GPIO_0_D16 could be used for PCLK and PCLK_SI.

Nrg wrote:
I'm afraid ADV7842 doesn't support pixel-perfect sampling of composite/svideo input from retro gear, because it always samples at the fixed PAL/NTSC resolution, which isn't optimal. It's the same with RetroTink-2X, it always samples the analog video at the fixed resolution, so can't get pixel-perfect results like we're used to with OSSC.

The issue isn't only related to ADV7842 though. All the composite/svideo digitizer ICs I've found always assume the fixed PAL/NTSC resolution for composite/svideo input, and it can't be changed/configured.
Some of the chroma information/resolution is already lost when signal is encoded into composite/s-video, so usefulness of pixel-perfect sampling would probably be somewhat limited. It's still too bad none of the analog cvbs/s-video decoder chips are no more generally available - I have one for curiousity so it'd be nice to compare it against these newer sampling ICs one day.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:10 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 40
marqs wrote:
DE10-Nano also doesn't have a configurable clock generator, so it might be a good idea to add a Si5351C on the adapter board so that it could be used with DE10-Nano as well (in addition to Wolf where it lies on the mainboard).


Hmm.. can one use the 6x configurable/fractional PLL's on de10-nano to generate needed clocks? It seems for example the default de10-nano example SD-card image uses the PLL to generate the HDMI TX pixel clock for each resolution. Or did I misunderstand the use case / need? [I'm FPGA newbie really :)]

marqs wrote:
Some of the chroma information/resolution is already lost when signal is encoded into composite/s-video, so usefulness of pixel-perfect sampling would probably be somewhat limited. It's still too bad none of the analog cvbs/s-video decoder chips are no more generally available - I have one for curiousity so it'd be nice to compare it against these newer sampling ICs one day.


I do have an old analog s-video --> RGB transcoder, so I can hook up s-video sources to the OSSC. When setting up the OSSC for pixel-perfect sampling of the source.. I can say there's definitely a difference in video quality. At least I can immediately see a visible difference.. but maybe that's because I've been staring at these pixels for quite a while already comparing different upscaling solutions for retro gear :) For example c64 looks *so* good when it's processed with pixel perfect sampling :)

So that's why I'm keen on finding a solution which allows custom number of samples per scanline for s-video sources, to be able to to do pixel-perfect upscaling of retro gear without hunting for these rare oldschool analog transcoders from ebay..


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:41 pm 


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Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 571
Location: Finland
Nrg wrote:
marqs wrote:
DE10-Nano also doesn't have a configurable clock generator, so it might be a good idea to add a Si5351C on the adapter board so that it could be used with DE10-Nano as well (in addition to Wolf where it lies on the mainboard).


Hmm.. can one use the 6x configurable/fractional PLL's on de10-nano to generate needed clocks? It seems for example the default de10-nano example SD-card image uses the PLL to generate the HDMI TX pixel clock for each resolution. Or did I misunderstand the use case / need? [I'm FPGA newbie really :)]
If they're anything like Cyclone IV PLLs, then their flexibility is not very good and it's ankward to configure them dynamically. For example, if one wants to normalize a 786-line signal into a 750-line signal (assuming same horizontal rate for simplicity), then output clock would need an exact ratio of 786/750 which is unlikely to be valid for those PLLs.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:16 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 40
marqs wrote:
Nrg wrote:
marqs wrote:
DE10-Nano also doesn't have a configurable clock generator, so it might be a good idea to add a Si5351C on the adapter board so that it could be used with DE10-Nano as well (in addition to Wolf where it lies on the mainboard).


Hmm.. can one use the 6x configurable/fractional PLL's on de10-nano to generate needed clocks? It seems for example the default de10-nano example SD-card image uses the PLL to generate the HDMI TX pixel clock for each resolution. Or did I misunderstand the use case / need? [I'm FPGA newbie really :)]
If they're anything like Cyclone IV PLLs, then their flexibility is not very good and it's ankward to configure them dynamically. For example, if one wants to normalize a 786-line signal into a 750-line signal (assuming same horizontal rate for simplicity), then output clock would need an exact ratio of 786/750 which is unlikely to be valid for those PLLs.


Ok. I found an example about setting up the de10-nano PLL here:
https://github.com/intel/meta-de10-nano ... apps.patch

There's a good explanation about the algorithm (before pll_calc_fixed() function) which is used to calculate the parameters for the PLL. Does that look similar to the Cyclone IV PLLs?


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