Sony Consumer CRT issues

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matt
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by matt »

Taiyaki wrote:Does the TROT do similarly as the TILT in the settings?

In the past when I've experienced this I pushed the tilt to +5 (or maybe it was -5) which was the point where the interference was at it's smallest (near gone), and then tilted the yoke manually like you did. Picture is very clean, but in some very rare instances I can still make out some near invisible interference going through.
Yes, it does the same thing. However, TROT works in smaller increments so it's easier to fine tune - sometimes you get a TV where the "sweet spot" is in between 2 "tilt" settings.

I find that usually, the yoke is oriented correctly to begin with. Unplugging the tilt coil means you can tweak TROT as much as you want and, most of the time, you won't have to mess with the yoke.
kitty666cats wrote:Hmm, does this apply to the BA-5D as well? I’m assuming “no”/you would have specified if so (I used to have a KV-32FS100 and haven’t encountered this or heard about it)
I've only ever seen the tilt-related interference in 1st-gen BA-6 Trinitron (FS100) models. I've never seen it in BA-5/5Ds or on second-generation BA-6 (FS120 etc).

Jittery component video is present on BA-5/5D and BA-6. The OSD doesn't suffer from this, though. This is one reason why RGB modding a BA-5/5D does serve a purpose; the OSD doesn't suffer from this issue and it also avoids the various edge enhancement "features". As such, the RGB mod does produce a noticeably cleaner picture than the component inputs.
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kitty666cats
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by kitty666cats »

matt wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:Does the TROT do similarly as the TILT in the settings?

In the past when I've experienced this I pushed the tilt to +5 (or maybe it was -5) which was the point where the interference was at it's smallest (near gone), and then tilted the yoke manually like you did. Picture is very clean, but in some very rare instances I can still make out some near invisible interference going through.
Yes, it does the same thing. However, TROT works in smaller increments so it's easier to fine tune - sometimes you get a TV where the "sweet spot" is in between 2 "tilt" settings.

I find that usually, the yoke is oriented correctly to begin with. Unplugging the tilt coil means you can tweak TROT as much as you want and, most of the time, you won't have to mess with the yoke.
kitty666cats wrote:Hmm, does this apply to the BA-5D as well? I’m assuming “no”/you would have specified if so (I used to have a KV-32FS100 and haven’t encountered this or heard about it)
I've only ever seen the tilt-related interference in 1st-gen BA-6 Trinitron (FS100) models. I've never seen it in BA-5/5Ds or on second-generation BA-6 (FS120 etc).

Jittery component video is present on BA-5/5D and BA-6. The OSD doesn't suffer from this, though. This is one reason why RGB modding a BA-5/5D does serve a purpose; the OSD doesn't suffer from this issue and it also avoids the various edge enhancement "features". As such, the RGB mod does produce a noticeably cleaner picture than the component inputs.

Dayum, I’d love to see a modded BA-5D in person… my old KV-32FS100 w/ a Kramer FC-14 transcoder looked frickin’ phenomenal
Taiyaki
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Taiyaki »

matt wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:Does the TROT do similarly as the TILT in the settings?

In the past when I've experienced this I pushed the tilt to +5 (or maybe it was -5) which was the point where the interference was at it's smallest (near gone), and then tilted the yoke manually like you did. Picture is very clean, but in some very rare instances I can still make out some near invisible interference going through.
Yes, it does the same thing. However, TROT works in smaller increments so it's easier to fine tune - sometimes you get a TV where the "sweet spot" is in between 2 "tilt" settings.

I find that usually, the yoke is oriented correctly to begin with. Unplugging the tilt coil means you can tweak TROT as much as you want and, most of the time, you won't have to mess with the yoke.
kitty666cats wrote:Hmm, does this apply to the BA-5D as well? I’m assuming “no”/you would have specified if so (I used to have a KV-32FS100 and haven’t encountered this or heard about it)
I've only ever seen the tilt-related interference in 1st-gen BA-6 Trinitron (FS100) models. I've never seen it in BA-5/5Ds or on second-generation BA-6 (FS120 etc).

Jittery component video is present on BA-5/5D and BA-6. The OSD doesn't suffer from this, though. This is one reason why RGB modding a BA-5/5D does serve a purpose; the OSD doesn't suffer from this issue and it also avoids the various edge enhancement "features". As such, the RGB mod does produce a noticeably cleaner picture than the component inputs.
So you mean the tilt coil is what causes the interference. That's a huge discovery. Thank you for sharing. I'll definitely try removing it next time I open one up.
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matt
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by matt »

Well, it's been known for a while that tilt control affects the onscreen interference. Unplugging the coil doesn't stop the interference from happening - it just disables the tilt function so that you can adjust it to whatever setting has the cleanest picture without the whole image being slanted.

I'm curious why this happens - hopefully there's a way to eliminate the interference without disabling the screen tilt (which is a useful feature). The KV-FS120 models don't have this problem, despite having mostly the same chassis, so apparently Sony managed to fix it somehow.
kitty666cats wrote:Dayum, I’d love to see a modded BA-5D in person… my old KV-32FS100 w/ a Kramer FC-14 transcoder looked frickin’ phenomenal
The difference is pretty subtle. There are a few situations where component has some weird effects - for instance the red powerup bullets in Soldier Blade are kind of warped with component but nice and straight in RGB. I don't think most people would notice it enough to make the mod worth the trouble, but it does help if you're a perfectionist (or just enjoy doing mods).
Taiyaki
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Taiyaki »

matt wrote:Well, it's been known for a while that tilt control affects the onscreen interference. Unplugging the coil doesn't stop the interference from happening - it just disables the tilt function so that you can adjust it to whatever setting has the cleanest picture without the whole image being slanted.

I'm curious why this happens - hopefully there's a way to eliminate the interference without disabling the screen tilt (which is a useful feature). The KV-FS120 models don't have this problem, despite having mostly the same chassis, so apparently Sony managed to fix it somehow.
I see. Yes it's been known (I think I also shared my settings 5 or 6 years ago about this occurence on 20/24 inch FS100's and FV300's), but I had no idea what causes it. So it's not the coil itself.

At any rate your solution is much cleaner and simpler than what I was doing (nudging the yoke as I was adjusting the tilt function). Probably works better for everyone other than those who use a swivel under their TV (as swiveling would gently have a tilt effect).
dreadnought
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by dreadnought »

I still hate it dearly (it appears on 3 of my otherwise brilliant sets) but have learned to live with it too. Adaptation is an important skill for those wanting to live in the CRT jungle.
sjittur
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by sjittur »

My Sony Trinitron KV-32FS100 has a siginifcant jittering/shaking problem does anyone know what causes this (or what its proprly called) and how i can fix it?

https://youtu.be/6fRhRFbBbbE
Slammer661
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Slammer661 »

I need help I recently did a mod on a Sony trinitron and was successful with the mod. The only problem is the alignment seems to be off. I can’t even fix it with osd menu or the hidden menu for centering the screen. Any ideas ?
KPackratt2k
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by KPackratt2k »

Slammer661 wrote:I need help I recently did a mod on a Sony trinitron and was successful with the mod. The only problem is the alignment seems to be off. I can’t even fix it with osd menu or the hidden menu for centering the screen. Any ideas ?
It sounds like the deflection yoke is out of alignment. Try rotating the deflection yoke just enough to straighten the image. You should put a mirror in front of the TV so you know when it's aligned correctly. Be careful when doing this as there are certain parts of the yoke that are energized when the TV is on, I recommend wearing high voltage gloves when doing this.
fernan1234
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by fernan1234 »

KPackratt2k wrote:It sounds like the deflection yoke is out of alignment. Try rotating the deflection yoke just enough to straighten the image. You should put a mirror in front of the TV so you know when it's aligned correctly. Be careful when doing this as there are certain parts of the yoke that are energized when the TV is on, I recommend wearing high voltage gloves when doing this.
Any tips for when there's epoxy blobs holding the yoke fixed?
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Syntax
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Syntax »

Yolk wont fix LR alignment, and its not the problem.
Change where you are injecting sync, try Svideo as your RGB channel, or the sync type to csync, the jungle chip should process this a tad faster and center the image.
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Josh128
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Josh128 »

What do you mean misaligned? Do you have a photo?
Bassa-Bassa
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

I'm getting this issue with a Sony KV-X2963 (AE2 chassis):

Image

Image

The upper lines are mirrored and displayed (kind of) over the lower lines. It affects the OSD as well, as you can see (the rest is fine). I know next to nothing about CRT repairs, but I'm willing to try. Anyway, having this properly diagnosed will help me to decide if it's worth it, it puzzles me that this only happens after a few minutes of correct operation (it actually may be seconds or even hours, depending on how long the set was unplugged).

Thanks for any advice!
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Syntax
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Syntax »

Retrace lines, should be tuned to be off screen.
Prepare for a recap or vertical collapse soon.
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

With "tuning the lines", do you mean finding out some sync(?) option in the service menu (as I don't think there're pots for this)? Or just recapping as an end-all solution? If it's just the lines, is it normal that the TV's OSD isn't displaying properly, either?
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Syntax
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Syntax »

The lines WERE tuned to be off screen.
Failing capacitors have caused them to drop.
Replace the caps.

OSD looks like it cannot grab sync to lock. That's a separate issue but probably failing caps somewhere off the OSD chips sync line causing an open circuit or sketchy syncrate.
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Understood, thanks again. Do I need to check every cap to know which replacement should I buy or are there safe kits for Trinitrons?
drojman
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by drojman »

Sorry to dig up an old thread.

Can I just ask, is it possible to confirm whether this is definitely present on all CRTs in some for or another? I have a Sony 14T1U (pretty cool actually it's NOS) that has this, but it's not really that bad, I also have a CM8833 MK2 right next to it, which has no OSD, everything is adjusted through POTs and it while it certainly doesn't have it to the same degree, I'm pretty sure it's there. I have had PVMs in the past but never noticed it, but I imagine it still must be there to some degree?

Weirdly if I knew these jitter in the Sony crt is 'meant' - bad choice of word, I think - to be there, I could totally live with it!

Cheers.
Taiyaki
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Taiyaki »

drojman wrote:Sorry to dig up an old thread.

Can I just ask, is it possible to confirm whether this is definitely present on all CRTs in some for or another? I have a Sony 14T1U (pretty cool actually it's NOS) that has this, but it's not really that bad, I also have a CM8833 MK2 right next to it, which has no OSD, everything is adjusted through POTs and it while it certainly doesn't have it to the same degree, I'm pretty sure it's there. I have had PVMs in the past but never noticed it, but I imagine it still must be there to some degree?

Weirdly if I knew these jitter in the Sony crt is 'meant' - bad choice of word, I think - to be there, I could totally live with it!

Cheers.
I can confirm I had jitter on even my BVM's (2 of them). So yes it's there. it is more noticeable on consumer sets however. Once you get used to it it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
drojman
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by drojman »

Taiyaki wrote:
drojman wrote:Sorry to dig up an old thread.

Can I just ask, is it possible to confirm whether this is definitely present on all CRTs in some for or another? I have a Sony 14T1U (pretty cool actually it's NOS) that has this, but it's not really that bad, I also have a CM8833 MK2 right next to it, which has no OSD, everything is adjusted through POTs and it while it certainly doesn't have it to the same degree, I'm pretty sure it's there. I have had PVMs in the past but never noticed it, but I imagine it still must be there to some degree?

Weirdly if I knew these jitter in the Sony crt is 'meant' - bad choice of word, I think - to be there, I could totally live with it!

Cheers.
I can confirm I had jitter on even my BVM's (2 of them). So yes it's there. it is more noticeable on consumer sets however. Once you get used to it it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

So interestingly, my Phillips monitor wasn’t actually doing it, it was just on the verge vertical collapse…seems to be fixed now though, and I have to say, vs the Trinitron it’s a much much more stable image, but then, it was meant to be viewed much closer.
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by MKL »

drojman wrote:So interestingly, my Phillips monitor wasn’t actually doing it
In agreement with:

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1474637
Taiyaki
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Taiyaki »

MKL wrote:
drojman wrote:So interestingly, my Phillips monitor wasn’t actually doing it
In agreement with:

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1474637
Your mileage may vary with jitter. I know some people don't notice the jitter unless they have their face up to the screen (from even a few feet away they just can't see it). I've generally stayed clear of CRT's older than 97~98 or so for several reasons: age, available connections, and general picture qualities (and ultimately I favor horizontally flat sets) so I've never seen a set without jitter. It's interesting to know that this might be exclusive to later CRT's.

The other thing to keep in mind is that similarly to most most common geometrical and convergence issues, jitter, on the whole wasn't a problem back then. Now that people are used to technologies that no longer exhibit such video anomalies going back to CRT's "can" make these issues stand out to different degrees to different users.
Bassa-Bassa
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Does any expert here have some experience with "service commanders"?

Got a European KV-29X2 set (AE-3 chassis) which has this singularity of having the option to turn off the 100hz/flicker reduction feature and despite not counting with too many hours of use for its age, its RGB picture needs all kind of adjustments. The problem is, I can't get to the service menus apparently because I need a "service commander" which is the first time I hear about.

From the service manual:

Image

Notice it states that "adjustment can be performed with the supplied remote commander", but this doesn't have the "Test" button/function they're suggesting. So I looked at the previous page and the they actually mention there a "service commander" with this function:

Image

Sadly there's no mention whatsoever of the model number or anything which serves to identify this device and Google's not being of use here.

Any suggestion?


ETA: Figured out how to display service menus so problem solved in this regard. Anyway, I'm curious now about these "service commanders" with Test function (which doesn't seem to be of use actually despite the manual's instructions). Are they like this one?

Image
Bassa-Bassa
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

So looking for some advice to adjust this KV-29X2 set (AE-3 chassis). This is the picture it shows:

Image

Image

With Age WHT on:

Image

Do you agree there's a severe ghosting issue here aside of the convergence adjustments it needs? Do you know what should I look for in the service menu to fix the ghosting (just look at the first pic - the T in SHOT, for instance, is kind of copied a few pixels to the right). Source is a PS2 with an RGB pack-a-punch cable working fine on other sets.
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Josh128
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Josh128 »

Vertical convergence near corners can only be adjusted with permalloy strips if H-stat and V-stat are good on the rest of the screen. Looks like your vert convergence on the top right? is way off. I would try to get this corrected first, then see if the horizontal ghosting issue persists.

Also, a tip I dont see mentioned often-- make every effort to adjust purity, convergence, and geometry with the set in the location and orientation that you plan to use it. At the very least, face the set in the same azimuth. You can have a set just where you want it on the adjusting table and when you move it or rotate it back to where you are going to be using it, you can have major purity and even geometry issues. These things are greatly affected by the earths magnetic field, and it seems to me that larger sets are more affected. You can save yourself a lot of time by keeping this in mind. 



https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/co ... pdf.23225/


https://www.retrogameboards.com/t/honey ... log/852/49
Bassa-Bassa
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Thanks a lot for the links and tips. I don't think static convergence is good enough anywhere but the top right is quite a mess, yeah. Should have taken better pics, though it's hard to capture how bad the ghosting? looks on this.
bogdy
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Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues

Post by bogdy »

I have Sony KV-21X5K (FE-1 Chassis) and the interference problem as well. I'm using high quality scart cables and tried to cut scart pins 8, 19 but this didn't work for me. By googling I found this suggested solution for FE-1 Chassis:

Band of interference down left of screen on dark scenes This was cured by adding a 1000pF, 2kV capacitor (part no. 1-161-731-81) in parallel with D539 in the EW diode modulator circuit

Did anybody try this route?
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