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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:06 am 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 833
Gosh this thread got revived after years of inactivity.

Anyway yeah the jittering is even present on pro monitors. I remember seeing it on static images near edges and corners on my BVM too.

Seeing some jittering is normal and occurs on all the consumer sets that I have (including the ones I got new in box).

Back when I first replied here I wasn't sure what that issue was in Cadillacs and Dinosaurs because it seemed a little bit more pronounced than on other game systems, but since then I tried to replicate it myself using Cadillancs and Dinosaurs and found the same thing on my sets, so turns out to be a normal phenomena, probably has something to do with the CP system's slightly unusual frequencies rendering the jitter ever so slightly more pronounced than usual.

I think it's just as visible on large and small screens but it might be more a matter of how far you sit from the screen as to how much you might notice it.

Totally agree with Josh, there's no perfect picture with crt's. You can get truly perfect on today's high end lcd's and oled's, but it doesn't make classic games look the way they were meant to be, or the way we remember them. In some ways being able to recreate those imperfect conditions to make classic games look their best is making them look perfect, but it's all subjective.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:11 pm 


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Joined: 19 Feb 2012
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Location: United States
If the interference looks like a ~ I've read people have had success recapping the vertical/horizontal sections of their monitors.

Also a lot of Sony CRTs don't like CSYNC if google is anything to go by. From a quick google search it seems a lot of them want to extract sync out of composite video. By giving them pure sync/csync they try to extract the sync but its already pure thus the messed up colors. I've also read some sets get confused on sync on luma and activate s-video too.

A few of my monitors exhibit this ~ problem but I also have a few that don't. Slightly related, but on my Egret 2 I wired up a new PSU and forgot to connect Earth to a good ground. I saw the same phenomenon on the screen (~ like a wave pulse) much like the monitors that had the jitters. although the ~ interference was around 2-3x worse. After connecting the earth to a solid ground it was gone.

Imo, not only could it be something out of spec (likely electrolytic capacitors in the vertical/horizontal psu section) but it could be interference from incoming AC. A lot of these tvs, especially consumer grade ones did not have isolation transformers due to cost. Maybe this plays a part in it.

In any case some of these jitters/wobble could be a quirk of some sets but I doubt it is normal for all crts.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:07 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 833
That's a good idea, but actually I have tried with both Csync and composite sync on the SNES back in the day (since I had a cable for both) and it made no difference. With caps you never know with absolute certainty, but I doubt that was the problem simply because of the high number of sets I tried, and the intensity and the jitter location is always the same.

Interference is absolutely a possibility. Especially since later tv's had less shielding, and it seems to happen more noticeably on sets from the late 90's and on (earlier tv's will have their own issues usually but interference is less of one in my experience). Also when in the US, most consumer tv's don't handle well anything that's off NTSC standard frequencies, so anything like 59.25hz or 59.35hz can also start displaying video issues (potentially).

It's worth noting of course that as per usual different people will have different levels of sensitivity, and while some users might be able to spot this when looking for it, others may not even be able to notice this ever so slight jitter and their eyes might just render it normally perhaps. It's good to let people know who catch onto this that it's really nothing to worry about.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:15 pm 


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@Chuchu

Its not related to sync of a source. As the OP said, its present on menus and/or the green OSD characters with no source attached.

@Taiyaki

I think its more noticeable (for me) on larger sets because we are sitting too close and looking too hard. I dont see it on my Wega or Symphonic unless I put my face close to the screen, like an OCD person. That said, when I do it, its more noticable on the 32" Sony, but I think its the same effect as using a magnifying glass to see something thats hard to see with the naked eye. Everything on the 20" is just smaller.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:53 pm 


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Oh, I was just talking about jitter in general.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:24 pm 


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ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
Oh, I was just talking about jitter in general.


Ahh.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 pm 



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 17
jepjepjep wrote:
It's hard to describe and hard to capture on video, but easy to see with the naked eye. If I consider a static screen, take for example Castlevania SOTN running through a PS2 with official Sony component cables, and pause the screen. The picture looks very nice and detailed, scanlines are very clear. But there are pixels that constantly change near the ends of objects. It is most easily seen on text, but it applies to all graphics, just a constant oscillatory motion where pixels should be static, end up oscillating.

I've tried to capture it in this video. If you look carefully at the staircase, you can see pixels oscillating. This image is a paused screen, so the image should be completely static.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzB_nQ6oNI0 (make sure to change streaming quality to 720p!)


dreadnought wrote:
Did anybdoy ever solve the jitter/micro-wobble issue? Or at least knows what's causing it?

2 of my 4 Trinitrons are affected by it. It's visible on static screens, around edges of objects, most annoying when there is text on screen - for that reason it makes these sets unusable for microcomputer use, and that's what I mainly do.


ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
Oh, I was just talking about jitter in general.



The "wobble" is caused by Velocity Modulation. The problem is that the BA-6 Chassis, like a 27FS120, setting VM to OFF actually sets it to low. You gotta go into the service menu to fully disable VM. On the BA-5 Chassis, setting VM to off, fully disables it.

https://imgur.com/DOj7zkZ

https://imgur.com/a/z024r0W

Also red push can be adjusted by the setting called "AXIS" BA-6 or "AXNT" = 0 BA-5/BA-5D


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:30 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1055
I've actually seen that kind of wobble/jitter on two D-series Sony BVMs I've owned. I wonder if there's something in the maintenance menu, maybe for one of the boards, that can adjust this.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:01 pm 


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Location: United States
Those reds still look orangey to me. I have quite a number of crts but the KV-27FS120 with the red push fix the reds still appear orangish. On the two 27FS100 that setting is the first thing I changed years back and all is well. Cool tip to know on to disable the VM on BA6 though.

I never messed with it more as it had a few problems. Cosmetically it was beat up quite a bit. Additionally it has this wavyness interference due to the rotate IC circuit mechanism oscillating. Putting the tilt at +5 or -5 fixes it but then it is slightly tilted in the corners. So that means I need to rotate the yoke afterwards if I want good geometry. Color calibrating it really wasn't worth it.

In any case I do plan to mess around with it more sometime and give it away. Fix the component inputs is the first priority.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:41 am 



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
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ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
Those reds still look orangey to me. I have quite a number of crts but the KV-27FS120 with the red push fix the reds still appear orangish. On the two 27FS100 that setting is the first thing I changed years back and all is well. Cool tip to know on to disable the VM on BA6 though.

I never messed with it more as it had a few problems. Cosmetically it was beat up quite a bit. Additionally it has this wavyness interference due to the rotate IC circuit mechanism oscillating. Putting the tilt at +5 or -5 fixes it but then it is slightly tilted in the corners. So that means I need to rotate the yoke afterwards if I want good geometry. Color calibrating it really wasn't worth it.

In any case I do plan to mess around with it more sometime and give it away. Fix the component inputs is the first priority.


On the BA-6 chassis, you need to calibrate AXIS setting. https://imgur.com/lytG1fE
Calibration is the same idea as setting saturation.
Except you put the monitor into red-only mode (so disable GON and BON) and then make the color bars looks uniformly red.

I sold my 27FS120. It was an okay TV but I prefer the BA-5 units. slightly better picture quality because they use a separate jungle chip.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:30 am 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 833
Ryeno wrote:
The "wobble" is caused by Velocity Modulation. The problem is that the BA-6 Chassis, like a 27FS120, setting VM to OFF actually sets it to low. You gotta go into the service menu to fully disable VM. On the BA-5 Chassis, setting VM to off, fully disables it.

https://imgur.com/DOj7zkZ

https://imgur.com/a/z024r0W

Also red push can be adjusted by the setting called "AXIS" BA-6 or "AXNT" = 0 BA-5/BA-5D


Not always. Some BA-6 sets such as the FV300 sets don't have that issue, and when the VM is set to off also fully disables it, as shown here for the 20 and 24 inch models:

https://imgur.com/a/pMMV2Hx

Personally I find the BA-6 actually gives me better reds when calibrated, but this only applies to the FV300 sets. The FS120 sets I have had were great sets but in my experience the reds and colors in general slightly harder to work with. Most people wouldn't notice unless it's side by side perhaps.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:50 am 



Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 29
Josh128 wrote:
This "micro-jitter" is present to some extent in every SDTV CRT I've seen, including my own Trinitron Wega and 20" Symphonic / Funai. It appears to be more visible on larger screens.
Im not sure that its actually a problem unless it gets noticeably worse than what was shown in the video.

I think this is one of the negatives of chasing down the "perfect picture". The perfect picture doesnt really exist. Once you see this, its all you can think about and it can drive you nuts. Its the bane of the OCD perfectionists existence.

Taiyaki wrote:
Gosh this thread got revived after years of inactivity.
Seeing some jittering is normal and occurs on all the consumer sets that I have (including the ones I got new in box).


I'm well aware of the OCD trap and I'm always trying to advocate myself for people not to go down this agonizing rabbit hole, just enjoy the sets they have unless there is some major problem. And I have a very high tolerance for flaws myself - my "calibration" usually just boils down to a quick and dirty service menu run, sometimes I don't even bother with that.

Unfortunately this jitter classifies as a major problem. It's not present on all the sets I have, so it's not normal. It's also not something you only see with your nose next to the glass - it's well visible from 1-2 meters, which is how I normally view 21" screens.

There are two things about this issue though: one, as often happens when talking about CRT flaws, is that we may be thinking about different kinds of a flaw. It's because these things are hard to describe. For example I'm not 100% sure "my" jitter is the one OP (Molhoy) and few other posters were talking about, but it's definitely the one @jepjepjep mentioned. It's not the (totally normal) OSD jitter. It is a small wobble/oscillation/jitter/whatever around mostly text and some objects. Again, we are not talking some microscopic, irrelevant flaw but a seriously annoying, unstable-picture kind of thing.

The other issue is that it's only really visible under certain conditions - some colour/gfx combinations seem more pronounced than other. Mostly white/bright text objects combined with darker backgrounds, while being static. For that reason it can be mostly invisible when playing full-colour games with rich gfx, so I use one of my Trinitrons (which has otherwise astonising IQ) for arcade and console action games, no problem there, because you only see it when you pause and look hard for it.

Unfortunately, when you try to display microcomputers, with lots of text and simpler/slower gfx it becomes unbearable. Similar in more static console games, such as RPGs.

480i is fine though so I also use this set for these consoles.

Ryeno wrote:
The "wobble" is caused by Velocity Modulation. The problem is that the BA-6 Chassis, like a 27FS120, setting VM to OFF actually sets it to low. You gotta go into the service menu to fully disable VM. On the BA-5 Chassis, setting VM to off, fully disables it.


I tried to look for this VM setting in my affected sets but couldn't find it. The sets are 21FQ10K and 21T3K. Here is the manual for the FQ, I couldn't find one for the T3, I think it's chassis BE-4A though and I couldn't see it in its manual either.

I read a description of it elsewhere and am not quite sure it's the same issue in any case: "scan velocity modulation. It is an extreme form of edge enhancement. It literally changes the thickness of vertical transitions from light to dark. It usually manifests itself as lines or halos around edges of bright objects."

My jitter-free sets are: Sony KV 21FT1k and Philips 21PT5606

What's frustrating is not just that damn problem itself but trying to make sure we all are actually talking about the same thing :) I might try to make a vid of this later, though it's, as always, rather tricky, besides jepjepjep has tried already.

Anyway, I'd really appreciate either a solution or at least knowing for sure what is the cause of this - if it is an intrinsic quality of particular sets or some sort of wear/failure/damage which can affect them all.

PS: I also found this manual for WEGA KV DR29, which describes a function called DRC PROGRESSIVE - apparently it
"reduces jitter of any small areas or scanning lines (eg letters or the edge of objects) on the screen". Hmph.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:55 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 833
You're right, it could be many different things. The kind of jitter that is generally normal and that I talk about is the kind you'd only observe right up with your face to the screen. This kind of jitter definitely happens on all Trinitron tubes I have ever seen, including the PVM and BVM models. Even for more particular users (I'll avoid the word fussy), this type of jitter should not be noticeable during normal use.

The two other kinds I have observed include one where the edge of contrasting colors scintillate if you will, and I have mostly ever observed this using Groovymame, on some sets it's more pronounced than on others, so that's one possibility. In most cases the scintillating is only noticeable when strongly focusing on it in my experience. In other words even this should probably not get in the way.

The last one is the aforementioned wavy picture for which you can see a video in previous pages, you get this from outputting non standard NTSC frequencies on an NTSC CRT. The intensity of it will vary depending on how far off it is from the standard. Different sets have different sensitivities, on most sets things already go off when around 59.25hz and below, so even the Neo Geo can have an unstable picture if not using a chip to fix it at regular NTSC standard (I highly recommend all Neo users have one installed if they haven't already, to guarantee maximum compatibility with all sets). This kind of jitter, if one can call it that, is pretty bad, and arguably makes games hard to play, more particular users such as myself would call it unplayable.

I'm sure there are other kind of jitter like behaviors, and I'm not sure which you are getting. Taking a video might help.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:31 am 


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It would be cool if someone could somehow contact a Sony engineer that worked on the FD Wegas back in the day and picked their brain about it. I'd be willing to bet they could tell us what could be done to minimize the jitter.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:05 pm 



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 17
Taiyaki wrote:
Not always. Some BA-6 sets such as the FV300 sets don't have that issue, and when the VM is set to off also fully disables it, as shown here for the 20 and 24 inch models:

https://imgur.com/a/pMMV2Hx

Personally I find the BA-6 actually gives me better reds when calibrated, but this only applies to the FV300 sets. The FS120 sets I have had were great sets but in my experience the reds and colors in general slightly harder to work with. Most people wouldn't notice unless it's side by side perhaps.


27FV300 is BA-5D. All FS120 sets are BA-6. I don't like them.

dreadnought wrote:


I tried to look for this VM setting in my affected sets but couldn't find it. The sets are 21FQ10K and 21T3K. Here is the manual for the FQ, I couldn't find one for the T3, I think it's chassis BE-4A though and I couldn't see it in its manual either.

I read a description of it elsewhere and am not quite sure it's the same issue in any case: "scan velocity modulation. It is an extreme form of edge enhancement. It literally changes the thickness of vertical transitions from light to dark. It usually manifests itself as lines or halos around edges of bright objects.".


Have you tried experimenting with the settings in the PICT area? Coring? Black Strech. What is Intelligent Pic?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:52 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
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Ryeno wrote:
27FV300 is BA-5D. All FS120 sets are BA-6. I don't like them.


The FV300 is mid size range (20 and 24 inch) are BA-6 too, It's in the service manual. There are some differences between series, even in the service menu, so the BA-6 on the FV300 is not exactly the same as on the FS120.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:31 pm 



Joined: 09 Jan 2019
Posts: 23
I have exactly this issue on one kv 21lte chassis fe-2 firmware 3.17, this TV set is like new, perfect color, perfect contras but on rgb those interferences are present and expecially noticeable on dark-flat areas of The picture. I have already recapped The entire A and c board, disconnected pin 19 on scart con, disconnect The psu v of The tuner but those interferences still there. The csync rgb is ok and no issue on kv-29fx30e (FE-2 chassis) and kv-29X5C (FE-1).


Last edited by Leoraider on Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:16 pm 


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I've seen this "jitter" effect on many different brands of TVS, including Sony, Sharp, Philips, and Toshiba. The worst I've ever seen was on a Toshiba 27af45. I recapped the deflection and power supply sections of the chassis but it still persisted. A year or two later, I found another toshiba AF that had the exact same problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:01 am 



Joined: 16 Jul 2020
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Chiming in. I've seen this on 3 of 4 CRTs I've owned. 2 Trinitrons included.

The Bang & Oulfsen I have is rock solid.

Could it be a voltage regulation issue? I've noticed the Bang & Oulfsen blooms a lot less than the affected sets I've had.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:20 pm 



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
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I've got a KV-21LS30u and i've noticed the interference issue, I managed to get this set from new and it's only had about 60hrs use. I honestly though the issue was down to quality control as crts we're coming to the end of their lifespan.

On another note has anyone managed to get it to save any value changes in the service menu?

I've made adjustments in the geometry but as soon as I switch the set of it seems to default back to normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:45 pm 


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Theres a certain code you have to input on the remote to save settings. Google around and you should be able to find it.

Also, FYI, my old Well Gardner K7000 25" arcade monitor does not have the micro jitter issue. Its rock solid stable. Strange.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 am 



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
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Josh128 wrote:
Theres a certain code you have to input on the remote to save settings. Google around and you should be able to find it.


Yeah, I've tried Mute + Enter, Mute + 0 and neither seem to work. I'm wondering if maybe the save function is faulty.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:21 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
Theres a certain code you have to input on the remote to save settings. Google around and you should be able to find it.

Also, FYI, my old Well Gardner K7000 25" arcade monitor does not have the micro jitter issue. Its rock solid stable. Strange.


This is good to hear! I recently bought a rebuilt K7000 chassis to pair with an old 25" TV I found on craigslist but I'm still waiting on a few parts before putting it all together.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:25 pm 



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nigel1210 wrote:
I've got a KV-21LS30u and i've noticed the interference issue,


I actually owned that set brand new back in the early 2000s. I distinctly remember it had the issue. I bought a KV-21CL10U recently and it had the problem too.

Now I have a KV-21FV1U and it's rock solid. Interestingly with this set when you adjust the colour and sharpness on a RGB source, it does nothing. This is the same as the only other rock solid CRT I've owned: The MX4000. This indicates these particular TVs are doing very little processing and just passing the clean signal through.

I suspect the jitter is due to crappy image processing to enable user sharpness and colour adjustments.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony Consumer CRT issues
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:31 am 



Joined: 09 Jan 2019
Posts: 23
I have the solution for the interference on FD trinitron 14-21 FE2 chassis just desolder the pin 8 on tv scart connector and zero interference in backgrounds (it is the function pin so the tv no more aouto swith into rgb, you just go manually). There is another type of issues with the latest chassis, the BX-1, wich have a weirdo pixel mooving at borders of sprites and certain text, I think that there is a some sort of "velocity scan modulation" option wich should be turned off, still have to better investigate on those chassis with my scope.


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