shmups.system11.org

Hi all,

First-time poster, so forgive me if I seem a little wet behind the ears...

For a long time I've been hunting for a Sony CRT for my retro gaming needs. I already have a couple of PVMs (20M4E 800 line and 20L2 600 line), but I still crave the more 'authentic' consumer CRT look.

Over the last couple of months I've been through several different models, experiencing a number of issues along the way. However, I am seeing a number of recurring issues that I was hoping someone here might be able to help me with.

I currently have 3 models of Trinitron TV:-

KV-21X5U circa 1998
KV-21LS30 circa 2001
KV-21CT1U circa 2003

My first problem is a persistent picture wobble/interference. This can be seen on all systems connected via RGB scart but - crucially - also on the OSD, even when nothing is plugged in or connected to the scart input. So, for example, switch the TV to AV1 and the interference is visible on the AV1 text at the top of the screen and on the OSD. After switching on the system (e.g. Megadrive connected via RGB scart), the interference/wobble is still visible across the whole picture and still on the OSD.

This has been a problem on various models of Trinitron that I've tried and leads me to believe the interference is internal. It's similar to (though not as extreme as) the OSD wobble you see when switching to the tuner - e.g. channel 1 - with nothing tuned-in (obviously as these all have analogue tuners!) This presumably is caused by the tuner static noise, but I wondered could this be somehow 'leaking' into the scart input? Or could it be interference from something else inside the TV?

The above is affecting both my KV-21X5U and KV-21CT1U (and has been present in several other CRTs that I have since binned).

The second problem I have is colour accuracy with pure/csync RGB signals. I.e. when feeding a RGB csync signal to the TV the colours are lacking vibrancy, almost looking dull/off colour. Reds in particular look almost brown. This is only a problem with csync signals (my Megadrive and PS2) and does not happen with either luma sync (my SNES) or composite video sync (my Saturn).

The above only affects my KV-21LS30, but I previously owned another of the same model and the 29" model, both of which were exactly the same. Could it be that certain Sony consumer CRTs simply weren't designed to accept/recognise a csync signal properly? I have never heard of this, but having seen it with my own eyes it's clearly an issue with the csync somehow. I should state that this is absolutely not a case of me confusing composite video with RGB. My SNES via RGB with sync-on-luma and Saturn via RGB with composite video sync deliver a proper, perfect RGB signal. I could, of course, change my csync scart leads to composite video sync, but they work perfectly on my other two TVs and my PVMs, so this seems a bit drastic!

The final problem is that my KV-21LS30 specifically is intermittently losing picture/sync. i.e. the signal cuts-out, then reappears at intervals. This happens on all systems, regardless of sync type. Probably a fault of some kind, but I wonder if there is an easy thing to check/fix? This only seems to be an issue when connecting via my scart switcher, although that same switcher works perfectly with my PVMs and all other TVs I have used it with.

I should state that I can/will open the TVs if necessary and I have already done this to tweak focus/h-stat convergence and G2. Having said that, I'm a total novice when it comes to electrics/wiring, although I'm a keen learner!

I also want to be clear that this isn't a case of me being fussy because I'm accustomed to my PVMs. In fact, I think the picture quality on all three of my above TVs is fantastic. The KV-21LS30 in particular has an absolutely beautiful picture, superb focus, good convergence and excellent geometry etc. I feel that I am so close to the right TV, if only I could fix the above issues!

I also don’t think that I’m being overly sensitive as I’m certain that anyone with the slightest interest in retro gaming and CRTs would notice the above issues if exposed to them in person.

I've searched everywhere for explanations on the above with no success, so I thought it was time I turned to the experts!

Any help would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post!

Many thanks,
Ben

This post is about the colour issues, and it's not an answer, because I don't know the answer; it's a related anecdote and some rambling:

I was using a Radeon 4350 with crt_emudriver in an arcade cab, and thought it was fine. Then I changed it out for a Radeon 6870 when upgrading my desktop, and the difference was huge. The colours were far brighter on the later card. And on all other (newer) cards I've tried. Not just brighter, in fact, but far more colourful, much redder reds, etc. Everything else was the same - the amp I'm using, the homemade sync-combiner circuit, and all cables. I've mentioned this in a few places, and no one else seems to have had this problem.

How the sync itself could affect the picture on an arcade chassis I'm not sure. I know the sync drives the timing of all the other parts of the chassis, of course, and that timing on the HV or grids could certainly affect the brightness, or at least give droop or tilt (lines getting dimmer at the end or frames at the bottom) if something like the sync tip clamp is too slow. I've also done a lot of testing with the sync-combiner circuits I use. Nothing special, just resistors and diodes slapped in to see what happens, what different levels do, where the monitors lose sync, and especially to see if I can dull the flicker in different interlaced modes (I have some old PVM-2730's that this helps with). I can certainly confirm that different Sony PVM's like their sync slightly different, and that varying the circuit you use has different effects on different models. Consumer sets would simply add more variation, I suppose. There's a lot of overlap in the middle where everything will work, of course, but peripheral effects vary.

But while playing with this a fair bit, I've *never* seen brightness affected, never been able to introduce droop or tilt, let alone affect colour tone. How sync could affect colour tone I don't know. At a guess, I'd say it's not possible, it's related to something else. I'm not sure, but the reds being produced by my 4350 weren't only duller, they seemed slightly brownish. I thought that might have been a product of phosphor condition and personal opinion though, so it's nice to hear someone else's opinion. I should probably have measured the voltages I was getting, but with the new card in there was clearly no going back, so I didn't bother.

So, what happens when you try one of the problem systems over composite, rather than RGB?

I dunno if this helps at all, but I had a rather large power supply near my CRT and it was causing some issues and exaggerating a few others... once I moved it, the picture got better. Not perfect, but made enough of a difference. In audio we want pure power for best sound... wouldn't same logic apply to video? IDK

Nope... Electric current running through wires creates a small magnetic field. This can interfere with any analogue signal video or audio... Generally this is very small and of minimal impact... However you want to avoid video/audio cable being bundled with power cables as far as possible. ..and if large/close enough a magnetic field will interfere with the electron gun in your crt - often seen when degausing a monitor next to another or moving a subwoofer or unshielded speaker close to a crt.

Large metal components in buildings like structural supports or beams may even have a big enough effect to inference with crt. Could this be effecting your experience?

Get an video of the wobble. A small wobble is always apparent on interlaced sets... Does it stabilise @ 240p?... Obviously more pronounced wobble will likely be due to something else especially if you've had strong effects on every set you've owned...

I use similar size range of Sony crt's as you do and that wobble on the OSD with nothing on is normal. However the wobble should only occur on the OSD when nothing is powered to the tv. The second you power on something to the video channel then the image should become normal again including the OSD.

There are exceptions, the Neo Geo for some reason doesn't correct this wobble. I have no idea why. This happens on the CMVS called the Omega and was discussed on the Neo Geo forums with a video of what it looks like:

https://youtu.be/fidh9pltpzw

According to what I've read, that cmvs uses the CXA1145 encoder which is the same as the Neo Geo AES home console, so if I had to guess I would assume the Neo Geo AES also has this problem on all of Sony's medium size crt tv's. Maybe CMVS with a better encoder doesn't do this, I'm not sure. I'm thinking of making a thread to discuss this actually.

Is that video the wobble you describe having on your tv's? And you get this with your Megadrive as well? Is it a pal console? I can only speak for myself but all my consoles are NTSC and I had never seen this happen before, only on the OSD when no signal is being sent to the channel.

Next I have to be honest in saying that, RGB is just not worth it on a regular consumer tube. Most of these consoles can display excellent S-Video and the jump in quality from S-Video to Component does not equal the jump you get from RF to Composite or from Composite to S-Video. Yes the image is better but only marginally (on modern technologies the difference is like night and day however). Then the difference from component to rgb is almost what I'd call a placebo. I have done side by side comparisons and you need to go pixel peeping to see a difference in sharpness and frankly I still wasn't sure it was there. If RGB is causing you problems, really you should try S-Video. Honestly you won't be loosing that much.

Hi everyone.

Sorry for the late reply. It's been a while since I started this topic and hadn't realised I'd had some replies!

The TVs are currently in storage, but I'll try to get at least one of them set up over the weekend and experiment with composite inputs as suggested by buttersoft (I haven't tried this before). I'll also try to capture the interference and colour issues in a video as suggested by gray117.

Regarding the wobble, it's present on 240p as well as 480i. In fact, it's more noticeable on 240p signals as the inherent shimmer of 480i signals masks the wobble to an extent. All of my consoles are outputting 60hz / NTSC.

I agree that the difference between composite and s-video is more pronounced than the difference between s-video and RGB. However, I can still notice the difference, even on a consumer CRT. Also, one of my favourite consoles is my Megadrive and this doesn't output S-video. Thanks anyway for the feedback, it's still appreciated.

Thanks again for the replies and I'll update when I've had a chance to test the TV(s) further.

Megadrive is one of my favorites as well. You can get S-video through the Megadrive through modding it. It's a very affordable mod to do and there are some really great folks on the forums here who could help you out. The S-video on the Megadrive is of superb quality actually, I think you would be very happy.

Are your tv's pal region models or are they tubes from North America (or at least an NTSC region)?

Did you check the video I linked to to see if that's the same kind of wobble shown there?

Hello,

I'm in the UK and have a PAL Sony Trinitron KV-32LS36U, which belongs to the same "LS" and ending with "U" line as the original thread posters TV with the colour issue. The set is perfectly capable of/designed to handle NTSC signals and 60hz, as well as full RGB euroscart.

I too have the EXACT same colour issue, when using a CSYNC RGB Scart cable designed for/with my NTSC Super Famicom (Japanese) on my set, the Picture is Clear, no wobble when a powered source is displayed, but the COLOUR ACCURACY is off. Everything seems slightly more...green than it should be, but by far the clearest issue is that some Reds appear Orange/pink. This is particularly evident on the Super Mario World title screen and in Super Mario RPG when seeing the red part of Mario's clothes.

I know that neither the 1CHIP 03 nor the SNES MINI/SFC JR systems can output Csync/pure without modding, and the same applies to the PAL SNES systems. But I'm trying to get CSYNC with my 1CHIP 01 NTSC Super Famicom, which is 100% compatible - without the need to mod - with CSYNC (as far as I know,) and I'm only interested in NTSC anyway.

I'm using Original American NTSC games and PAL games to test, not Japanese ones. I also used my SD2SNES, with no difference on Super Mario World via that. I got ALL my CSYNC/PURE SYNC RGB and SYNC ON LUMA RGB cables - both with Euroscart output - from http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk

I presently have a Sync on Luma Cable which I used with my old PAL SNES and was designed for PAL, and the colour is perfect on that when used with my NTSC Super Famicoms, but I'm unclear on if it's OK (No risks etc?) to use a PAL Luma Sync scart with an NTSC Japanese Super Famicom.

When I access the SERVICE MODE on my CRT, there is a function under the "Design" option called "CDEC," and when I alter the value to 0000, 0001 or 1000, it improves the colour accuaracy drastically, making the Green effect disappear, BUT the Reds are STILL weak, looking orange/pinkish instead of the strong red expected. ALSO, the moment I either switch the tv to standby and back on, OR switch off the service menu back to either the "TT" screen with the "_" and "-" lines and the numbers and stuff that comes up when the TV first switches on in Service Mode from Standby, the effect of the "CDEC" value change is reset, and when I return to the "Design" menu, the value is where it was before I made the change. Of course, this change, even if it DID stay, doesn't solve the RED issue properly.

Just to be HELPFUL, I ACCESSED the SERVICE MENU or ENGINEER MENU by pressing the following buttons, ONE AT A TIME, RELATIVELY SLOWLY, WHILE THE TV WAS IN STANDBY MODE: i+, 5, VOL+, (_). The First button is known as INFORMATION, the Second is the Number Five, the third Volume up, and the Last is the DISPLAY button, which Looks Like a BLANK TV Screen. Learning this myself took me a couple of days of searching on and off across the net, and funnily enough the answer was elsewhere on these very forms.

I should make it clear that BOTH my 1 chip 01 NTSC Super Famicom AND my SNS APU01 NTSC SUPER FAMICOM (which is NOT a 1chip) have the SAME Colour issue on this TV set WHEN USING the NTSC CSYNC euroscart, as does my Playstation 2 SLIM's have their own colour tone accuracy problems as well, though not exactly the same, both PAL and NTSC PS2's using the CSYNC cable for them. With them though, a pale BLUE tinge appeared in brilliant white screens in games, notably in Shadow Hearts, for example.
Again, Luma Sync euroscart cables for each system were perfect with the Playstations and my original PAL SNES. (I have three SNES units in total now...and a SUPABOY.)

I should ALSO make it clear that I have tested my Super Famicom NTSC 1chip 01 with its CSYNC RGB scart on my HDTV and the colours were fine. I also own a small phillips CRT, but the image won't show at all via csync on that set, and a SD Plasma screen by TECHWOOD, but I haven't tested that yet.
So if it IS the CRT trinitron that doesn't like CSYNC, how can I FIX this? Aren't ALL RGB enabled euroscart CRT's - Certainly a high class Trinitron - capable of CSYNC? I've had no other issues with the set.

I too can post photos upon request, and would like to compare my problem to the original thread posters Colour issue, perhaps we can help each other?

If anyone else has any ideas, I'd GREATLY appreciate it and Thanks for any help offered. Cheers.

KV-21X5U owner here and yes I also have the interference when using the Scart input (Tested on a pal RGB modded N64 with an official pal Gamecube scart). It's mostly noticeable on dark flat colours I think.

I did notice that if you lower the brightness it reduces the visibility of the issue. I might try inputting and tuning in an RF source whilst I use the Scart on the tv to see if it eliminates the interference. Will report back later.

Just tried using an RF, composite and s-video source connected to the tv whilst I used the scart av channel and it made no difference, the interference is still there.

If the Philips set shows no picture, that means it doesn't accept RGB through its Scart port. It is only showing the composite signal, which is absent because you are using a csync cable.

As for you Trinitron, I doubt the problem is csync, as it shouldn't have an effect on colors. Are you plugging it into Scart port 1 (the bottom one)?

I have been experiencing this effect too and it's driving me insane! I have a KV-24FS120 (US model). I'm primarily using a HAS supergun through XSelect-D4 to transcode to component input since my US set doesn't have a scart input. The picture is good, aside from interference issues. The wobble is really pronounced on text and static screens. I've tried other consoles through the XselectD4 (pcengine, saturn) but the issue is the same. I also tried the composite input on the front of the monitor and the effect was present. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Are you talking about the same wobble as shown in the video above? Does it happen to you only through the XselectD4 or do you get this on other systems? Normally you shouldn't get it with other consoles using regular connections (composite, s-video, component). I'm still trying to nail down why this happens myself.

I tried disabling the blanking screen (I'm assuming that's what the screen is when there's no input) in the service menu but it doesn't seem to work, I get an 'XX' when I input 18. Anybody else want to give this a try?



Maybe one of the other codes could help.

The interference on my set seems a little different. Not as large as a wobble, but rather edges of objects have a wobble to them. It seems more of a high frequency wobble, maybe I should take a video. I suspected the xselect as a cause, but I hooked up a ps1 console through straight composite to the TV and noticed the same effect. I was thinking that my TV got damaged by transporting it somehow, but now I'm not so sure since others have been having issues as well with these Trinitrons.

I doubt it's the tv itself. Try taking a video so we can see whether it's a type of interference that has been diagnosed from other causes maybe. That's very weird that the PS1 console on composite straight to the tv would be doing that too. You are located in the US with an ntsc FV-xxFS120 and you are runninig a US ntsc PS1 correct?

Yes, that's correct. I'll take a video of it tonight. Thanks in advance!

Here's a video of the interference that I'm seeing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbjfyJ8RJI&t=2s (starts at 0:34s).

The wobble in edges is especially visible on text. There's also a slow horizontal ripple that moves it's way across the screen that's not very visible in the video but seems to be another interference type issue.

I'm used to playing on an arcade CRT that has rock solid picture. I can't imagine that these wobbly lines are normal for consumer TVs. If I pause the picture the edges of text just seem to oscillate constantly.


Edit: I just noticed this post in a different thread and I wonder if this is the same effect that I'm noticing:


Could it have something to do with the digital signal processing related to sharpness, and more importantly is there a way to turn if off?

Ah yeah actually I've seen something like that happen in an arcade machine before, not sure it's the same behavior, because to be honest the problem is a bit difficult to catch on video. I'm going to have to assume this is more noticeable in person. I think if this is happening on other systems such as the PS1, even when hooked directly to the tv, then it could well be a problem with this particular tv (not the model), maybe you could check the capacitors see if anything isn't quite right? I believe that you are right that that this should not be happening. If you had a second tv doing it then it would likely rule out the tv but I used to have an FS120 and I never had that happen on my ps1 or any other system. Sometimes you get wiggly pixels in parts of the screen that wiggle very very gently at irregular momentsand that's normal on (I believe) all crt's, but for it to happen on all texts like that is probably not.

The image is looking fantastic otherwise.

JepJepJep, I just want to note that what I described happening on my 310 was simply normal screen flicker that occurs with 480i content. What I have discovered is that on both the FV300 and 310 sets is that screen flicker is more noticeable and it causes me a bit of eye strain. I am not exactly sure why this is but a reviewer of the 24FV300 thought it was because of the type of phosphors used in the FV sets. Not everyone is bothered by the screen flicker on the FV sets, though, as people have different levels of sensitivity to screen flicker. I also have an FS120 and screen flicker with 480i content on that set doesn't bother me at all. I am also not experiencing the same problems on my FS120 as you are and am not sure what would be causing your issues. Maybe plugging the TV into a different outlet could make a difference?

Thanks for the input guys. I'll post back if I find out anything else. It's a shame that this issue is ruining an otherwise beautiful picture. The fact that it's not been noticeable on your sets leads me to believe that it can't be due to any signal processing in the set itself, but rather an specific defect in my setup, either interference or hardware component.

I think I might have something similar, it's noticeable on text, like a line subtly shifting pixels horizontally?

It's hard to describe and hard to capture on video, but easy to see with the naked eye. If I consider a static screen, take for example Castlevania SOTN running through a PS2 with official Sony component cables, and pause the screen. The picture looks very nice and detailed, scanlines are very clear. But there are pixels that constantly change near the ends of objects. It is most easily seen on text, but it applies to all graphics, just a constant oscillatory motion where pixels should be static, end up oscillating.

I've tried to capture it in this video. If you look carefully at the staircase, you can see pixels oscillating. This image is a paused screen, so the image should be completely static.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzB_nQ6oNI0 (make sure to change streaming quality to 720p!)

Yeah I think your camera is compensating for hand shake. If you put it down on a stable surface the problem might come through better. I think I see what you mean. I have to say that crt's in general will have a behavior resembling a pixel wiggle as I like to call it. You might see pixels wiggle intermittently (and sometimes suddenly stop). It's a perfectly normal behavior on crt's. Normally this isn't noticeable but you can catch it if you put your face up to the screen (and this even happens or professional monitors as well by the way, including the BVM). That being said the kind of movement you describe sounds a lot more severe than slight occasional pixel wiggle, of the type that is normally only visible 6 inches away from the screen.

Same problem here. Ps if you put 34 on "green words" service menu you will have the same results of changing Cdec but permanently.

Ive gone though quite a few consumer sets attempting RGB mods, one of my pet hates is a screen that shakes.
Most clear up with input, but some just stay shakey.

It doesn't really matter what make or model, its luck of the draw for me.

The internals in some of these sets are getting old and probably out of spec, something may need to be tuned or replaced on the chassis to stop the shakes.

For what its worth, when I first thought it was interference I pulled the composite video pin from the internal jungle IC and connected a clean csync signal directly to the jungle via heavily shielded cable. No change.

I have the same model (Sony KV-21X5B) with the exact same problem. I use RGB cables.
It is mostly visible on black screens as in the GIF.
It is not visible when the consoles are shut down but as soon as a console is powered up the interference starts.
Any solution found Gunstar?

Sorry, Tony, I've not come across a solution but then fixing something like this seems way out of my pay grade. Interesting how I hadn't noticed this until it was mentioned here and a couple of us have experienced this. I think I'll be avoiding these three models if I decide to get another Sony CRT.

Did anybdoy ever solve the jitter/micro-wobble issue? Or at least knows what's causing it?

2 of my 4 Trinitrons are affected by it. It's visible on static screens, around edges of objects, most annoying when there is text on screen - for that reason it makes these sets unusable for microcomputer use, and that's what I mainly do.

This "micro-jitter" is present to some extent in every SDTV CRT I've seen, including my own Trinitron Wega and 20" Symphonic / Funai. It appears to be more visible on larger screens.
Im not sure that its actually a problem unless it gets noticeably worse than what was shown in the video.

I think this is one of the negatives of chasing down the "perfect picture". The perfect picture doesnt really exist. Once you see this, its all you can think about and it can drive you nuts. Its the bane of the OCD perfectionists existence.

Now, Im not saying there isnt a way to improve it, I'd love to know if its possible, I just know that the focus pot on the flyback does not.