Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)?

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Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)?

Post by StarCreator »

So I recently picked up a 4K television with the intent of gaming on it, meaning it will be receiving 720p and 1080p signals primarily for a while. I had figured it would be a simple matter to display both natively without any interpolation, but it seems there is no television that will simply duplicate each input pixel 4 or 9 times to preserve the input image, and the interpolation I am stuck with looks pretty awful. Is there a possibility of hardware that could do this duplication as a pass-through so the TV is fed a 4K signal and thus doesn't scale it? And could this be done without introducing significant input lag?
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by ZellSF »

Well a PC capture card setup could do it, but that would be about 3 frames of lag. Which I really don't recommend combined with the existing lag of a 4K TV. I don't think a lag free hardware solution exists yet.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Fudoh »

For 1080p the HDFury Linker is supposed to do a really nice job. Lagfree and clean. That doesn't help you with 720p though. For 720p and lower I currently can't think of any simple (or one-machine-only) solution.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by StarCreator »

The input lag of the television was actually the primary reason it was chosen despite not having 4K sources to feed it; I personally tested it as having average 23ms input lag with a Leo Bodnar 720p tester.

Nice to hear there is a 1080p solution. 720p is my primary goal though. I might have to try to contact the HDFury guys and see what they think. I would think that if it can be executed for 1080p then 720p should be possible in much the same manner.

Then the question becomes how much input lag is present when the television is receiving a 4K signal, but that's easy to test once the pixel duplication exists.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by orange808 »

StarCreator wrote:The input lag of the television was actually the primary reason it was chosen despite not having 4K sources to feed it; I personally tested it as having average 23ms input lag with a Leo Bodnar 720p tester.

Nice to hear there is a 1080p solution. 720p is my primary goal though. I might have to try to contact the HDFury guys and see what they think. I would think that if it can be executed for 1080p then 720p should be possible in much the same manner.

Then the question becomes how much input lag is present when the television is receiving a 4K signal, but that's easy to test once the pixel duplication exists.
I had to chain the Leo Bodnar through both an HDFury Linker and an HDFury Integral to get the Leo Bodnar to display properly: when scaling to 4K using the Linker. Plugging the Leo Bodnar straight through the Linker doesn't work properly.

The Integral let me edit the EDID so the display would accept the Leo Bodnar signal. It's a curious bug.

720p support seems like a longshot, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. :)
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by StarCreator »

We have an EDID override box we got for another purpose. If I end up getting a Linker (which I don't see myself doing unless 720p upscaling is added honestly; not enough value if it only helps me with 1080p sources) I could try it out through that and see if that makes the difference.

Made a thread on the HDFury forum: http://dme.ghost2.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27064
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by orange808 »

StarCreator wrote:We have an EDID override box we got for another purpose. If I end up getting a Linker (which I don't see myself doing unless 720p upscaling is added honestly; not enough value if it only helps me with 1080p sources) I could try it out through that and see if that makes the difference.

Made a thread on the HDFury forum: http://dme.ghost2.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27064
Can you still return the display? I am still hunting a better way to scale 480p in my setup, but my 4k display handles 720p and 1080p very well.

I am sure there will be some kind of solution out there for you, but a brand new full featured 4k 4:4:4 video processor is going to be expensive.

Do you really want a display that can't handle anything outside of native 4k?
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by ZellSF »

Fudoh wrote:For 1080p the HDFury Linker is supposed to do a really nice job. Lagfree and clean. That doesn't help you with 720p though. For 720p and lower I currently can't think of any simple (or one-machine-only) solution.
It isn't exact pixel duplication (integer scaling though), is it? I find that a pretty important distinction to make, since OP specifically asked for that. Though, of course personally I find integer scaling a bit overrated on these forums...
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Fudoh »

No, it's not, but I'm sure StarCreator wouldn't mind a good looking scaling solution, no matter which algorithm gets applied.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by BuckoA51 »

Do you think a DVDO/ABT machine plus HD Fury linker would work well? I know the ABT scalers are kind of dated now but they're low lag and they aren't that bad in my opinion.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by StarCreator »

I'm definitely after integer scaling and not any other type of scaling. Interpolation scaling is completely unnecessary in this situation and has more potential for issues than just doing the simple and obvious mathematical solution that still results in a perfect representation of the input signal.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by ZellSF »

StarCreator wrote:I'm definitely after integer scaling and not any other type of scaling. Interpolation scaling is completely unnecessary in this situation and has more potential for issues than just doing the simple and obvious mathematical solution that still results in a perfect representation of the input signal.
I have to ask: Have you actually compared a high quality interpolated 1080>4K scale with a 1080p>4K integer scale?
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by StarCreator »

ZellSF wrote:I have to ask: Have you actually compared a high quality interpolated 1080>4K scale with a 1080p>4K integer scale?
Considering that performing an interpolating scale with any quality worth mention requires the scaler to wait and buffer larger chunks of visual data, no, I can't say I'm at all interested. Besides the primary factor in not wanting to introduce any amount of lag, I also don't really find any compelling argument that unnecessary visual interpolation is any more acceptable than temporal interpolation (60Hz->120/240, or the infamous "soap opera effect"). We needed it to show 720p content on 1080p screens because integer scaling simply wasn't possible in that situation, but we are past those days now.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by ZellSF »

Do you have a computer that can output 4K? Because you really should try. The iScan Micro/Mini or HD Fury Linker might actually give you satisfactory image quality, but you're looking for a product that doesn't exist based on an assumption you haven't tested.

If after testing you figure out that only integer scaling is good enough for you, you have three options: replace the TV (and limit your choices of replacements drastically), wait for a device that will do it (there are none currently) or take the input lag hit of a PC capture card setup.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Xyga »

Too few TV sets do good-enough 1080p>4K by themselves, and they all fail hard at 720p>4K.
Sony sets consistently do a good job, although a bit too soft.
Samsung vary a lot, from good to awful, it's not even consistent within a same series.
LG fail pretty much everywhere.
Vizio seem to show even greater gaps than Samsung, going from LG-ugly to surprisingly good.
Can't say much about other brands due to the lack of comparative screen captures/interest, but you an go to Rtings and compare the tested ones viewed at full size.
The photos Rtings use are definitely not ideal for that kind of testing, but they've also added watermarked characters and square-shapes on the bottom right corner, it helps a bit.

High quality scaling w/ interpolation simply isn't a given in the world of 4K displays, the only way to somewhat make 'sure' is indeed to use a PC as the only source.
As for external scalers, well, we're discussing the issue. ^^
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by StarCreator »

ZellSF wrote:Do you have a computer that can output 4K? Because you really should try. The iScan Micro/Mini or HD Fury Linker might actually give you satisfactory image quality, but you're looking for a product that doesn't exist based on an assumption you haven't tested.
That doesn't do anything for 720p though. I want the ability to do both in the end, but 720p is the more important goal right now. To provide more backstory: the biggest reason I want this is because the only television with low enough lag in the size we needed for an arcade machine monitor replacement was a Samsung 4K set, which was the aforementioned TV with a 23ms average lag. The arcade machine outputs 720p (true 720p at that, not the more common 768p) but the scaling engine in the TV is the most godawful thing I've ever seen. We are currently putting up with it, because input lag is king, and we've not found another viable monitor in half a year of searching and lag testing in stores since our previous monitor (a used professional display from Planar) burned out.

If there were a viable 720p (not 768p, which is an extremely tall order in the flat panel display space) set on the market with low enough lag for our purposes, we would have jumped in it in a heartbeat. But in the end our search brought us to 4K, because that is what the hardware in the market has become.

I'm fully aware there are better scalers but I'm not willing to compromise on lag. At all. So here I am, in a forum where there are some really, really smart hardware engineers, asking if there would be anyone willing to take on this problem. Because out of your list of choices, waiting for a product that does not currently exist seems to be my only option given the circumstances.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by ZellSF »

StarCreator wrote:
ZellSF wrote:Do you have a computer that can output 4K? Because you really should try. The iScan Micro/Mini or HD Fury Linker might actually give you satisfactory image quality, but you're looking for a product that doesn't exist based on an assumption you haven't tested.
That doesn't do anything for 720p though.
The DVDO products support 720p. Sadly, no one has the equipment to do 4K captures of either of the mentioned devices, so you would have to buy them to see if they'll offer any improvement.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Fudoh »

Since there's no machine out there, which does what you want, you might just as well give the existing solutions a try. The DVDOs are your best choice. The Micro is sub-$100, the Mini sub-$200.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Guspaz »

StarCreator wrote:Considering that performing an interpolating scale with any quality worth mention requires the scaler to wait and buffer larger chunks of visual data
Bilinear interpolation requires a single scanline to be buffered. On a 720p signal, that is 0.023 milliseconds. That's the best case scenario: the worst case for nearest neighbour scaling (which is what you're asking for) is buffering an entire frame before scaling it. When comparing interpolation or nearest-neighbour scaling, the latency is almost entirely dependent on the implementation, not the algorithm.

In other words, you've made a faulty assumption (that interpolation is slower), and should be judging based on actual latency and image quality, not imagined latency alone.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Unseen »

Guspaz wrote:Bilinear interpolation requires a single scanline to be buffered.
Not just bilinear, the same is true for nearest neighbour - unless you want to do horizontal-only scaling and keep the same vertical resolution.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by StarCreator »

I would think, assuming each line is rendered from left to right in both input and output, that the best case buffering scenario for integer upscaling is actually a bit over 2/3 of a horizontal line draw for 720p->4K (1/2 of a line for 1080p->4K), though I would probably ask a hardware implementer to buffer the whole line to be safe. As was just mentioned, other scaling techniques generally aren't only scaling horizontally and thus need multiple horizontal lines in the buffer to be able to scale both horizontally and vertically. I'm not seeing why integer scaling would be slower and how two dimensional scaling could possibly be faster.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Guspaz »

You've missed the point, which is that a fiftieth of a millisecond is essentially zero latency when it comes to perceived latency. The scaling algorithm effectively has no impact on latency, and you should look for devices that produce acceptable latency with acceptable image quality, not trying to pick devices based on which interpolation algorithm has the lowest theoretical latency. There are scalers out there that do integer scales which add more than a frame of lag.

Your TV has 25ms of latency, which means that adding a single scanline of lag would take it to 25.02ms.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

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I'm not sure what you're trying to argue since no 720p->4K upscaling method that is that fast has been mentioned in thread.

And I believe I've established that I -also- believe that upscaling is inherently worse - when is attempting to create data where there is none better when just representing the input accurately is an option? The "soap opera effect" example I brought out earlier was just showing how upscaling gets things wrong; it's just upscaling two-dimensionally doesn't make the errors stand out as much and most people won't notice. Even the best upscaling methods drive me nuts.

I'm honestly surprised this is even a question here. Wasn't Mushihimesama Futari's port considered the best because of its ability to render dot by dot, unlike Cave's offerings?
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Fudoh »

Futari looks so good because you get the intial 4x integer scaling FOLLOWED by the your TV's upscaling from 720p to 1080p or 4K (well mostly 1080p a few years back). I honestly dislike integer scaling up to the panel's resolution.

Same reason why Pixellate is hands down the best shader for anything BUT scanlines. It also solves the problem of non-integer scaling factors, while offering results that easily surpass any other upscaling method.
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Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)?

Post by LDigital »

I don't understand why there is an issue. I haven't seen or tried to use any non optimal sources on a 4K tv but shouldn't they just Line triple 720 > 2160 and linedouble 1080 > 2160

It seems 4K is the perfect multiplier for both resolutions so I would expect them to look razor sharp either way. Is this not the case?
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Guspaz »

I'll agree: at least in terms of retro games, they were never intended for integer scaling, they were intended for blurry consumer CRTs. In my opinion, scaling 240p to 480p or 720p and then using a softer scale to get the the panel's native resolution is much more pleasing than cut-your-eyes sharp integer scaling to 1080p or 4K. Personal preference may differ, but an integer scale is no more accurate than a bilinear scale: you're still upscaling, it's still interpolation (nearest-neighbour interpolation is still interpolation), and it's still having to create data that wasn't there originally.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by orange808 »

Here's a repost of a couple iScan Micro screenshots. These are 720p scaled to 4k. I have tested the iScan Micro for lag and it gets the job done in a microsecond. That's one decile of a millisecond. (One frame = ~16 milliseconds.) Lag is not an issue.

I managed to pick up my iScan Micro for $40 usd from Tiger Direct.

They were taken with a cell camera, so you will have to excuse the photos. With that established, you can still get a general idea.

This is not the pinnacle of video scaling, but it might be good enough for your application.

Hi Def Nes no scanlines/no interpolation 720p -> iScan Micro -> 4k
Spoiler
Image
Spoiler
Image
--------------

Another option is to find a scaler that gets you a 1080p output that makes you happy. You could add an HDFury Linker to finish upscaling to 4k. It's a two machine solution, but it can be done.

Hope this helps. :)
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by Xyga »

LDigital wrote:I don't understand why there is an issue. I haven't seen or tried to use any non optimal sources on a 4K tv but shouldn't they just Line triple 720 > 2160 and linedouble 1080 > 2160

It seems 4K is the perfect multiplier for both resolutions so I would expect them to look razor sharp either way. Is this not the case?
It is not the case.
But that's what a lot of people unfortunately believe 'because math'. It is mass market products we're talking about, each manufacturer's R&D follows its own logic, though a dogma/commandment they all seem to share in this case would be: "thou shall never allow pixelleth~blockieth output in any mode".

So all 4K displays force a form of smoothed resizing which cannot be integer (there are maybe some forms of light smoothing that don't break multiples but they're not used by any manufacturer I think) and we get messed up 720p and 1080p > 4K instead of perfect integers.

I understand manufacturers don't trust the average customer to understand that the 4K business is just marketing bullshit they don't really need, IMHO even before the fear of stupid people returning products I think it's the primary reason why they don't allow pure non-smoothed multiples: because that would lead many customers to realize it's bullshit.
You know right, that most people think their fresh 4K set makes everything look better 'because moar pixels!!!' even though it's actually looking worse right before their eyes ?

PS: tbh though with time I got used to detect the changes/flaws so of course I would notice and be pissed, but people saying it makes everything look better is a bit too much. :/
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by StarCreator »

I found an iScan Micro on eBay for $74 shipped and decided to give it a shot first since it's confirmed this works down to 720p input, making it seem to be more versatile than the Linker at the moment.

I still wish integer scaling were an option, but there's little I can do on that front.
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Re: Hardware 1:2 or 1:3 pixel duplication (720p/1080p to 4K)

Post by BONKERS »

Fudoh wrote:For 1080p the HDFury Linker is supposed to do a really nice job. Lagfree and clean. That doesn't help you with 720p though. For 720p and lower I currently can't think of any simple (or one-machine-only) solution.
Which is quite funny when they literally all they have to do is the simplest scaling method ever.
Point sampling.
Draw 9 pixels for each 720p pixel.
Draw 4 pixels for each 1080p pixel.
I mean FFS how hard can it be??
You go , Input>Resolution detection>Is point scaling set in menu? if yes>Bypass all processing>Upsample each with point sampling.
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