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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:46 pm 



Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Posts: 82
daty2k1 wrote:
jwrose wrote:
daty2k1 wrote:
I see. Then with the D Series you have access to VCR mode which can help with most of theses issues no?

No, I don't. I think it's in there somewhere but I've always seen it greyed out. Maybe because I'm using RGB? Either way it's not an option for these systems.


Ah strange. I found this video if it's any help:
https://youtu.be/6_2_OgrMPcg



Or you could watch Bob's great BKM-68x part 2 video, he has already posted it but just for convinience:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:20 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
daty2k1 wrote:
Ah strange. I found this video if it's any help:
https://youtu.be/6_2_OgrMPcg


Thanks for sharing. I've actually solved my TG16 and Neo Geo AES with just an Extron RGB 203 RXI (the SERR setting was all I needed) It's just the SMS that's giving me issues.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:40 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1348
jwrose wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Is your US Neo Geo AES a 3-1 (first hardware version) by chance? Someone told me that his Neo Geo AES was a 3-1 US model and had no sync issues with RGB on the BKM-68X. Would putting the Extron 203rxi after the Extron Crosspoint mess up other consoles when the sync fix is adjusted for Neo Geo AES?


I'm not sure which mine is. How can I tell? I get the flagging issues but sync seems just fine as the image complete, just distorted.

Open up the cartridge slot and look to the far right with a flash light. You should see "NEO-AES, followed by the board revision number. No number means it's a 3-1

Image


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:48 am 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
GeneraLight wrote:
Is your US Neo Geo AES a 3-1 (first hardware version) by chance? Someone told me that his Neo Geo AES was a 3-1 US model and had no sync issues with RGB on the BKM-68X. Would putting the Extron 203rxi after the Extron Crosspoint mess up other consoles when the sync fix is adjusted for Neo Geo AES?


Open up the cartridge slot and look to the far right with a flash light. You should see "NEO-AES, followed by the board revision number. No number means it's a 3-1


Ah, thanks! Yep, this is a 3-1. I double checked by peeking under the daughter board below the "Neo-AES" and all it said there was "Made in Japan".
Image

Thanks for the heads-up on that. I suspected this was the first hardware version, but I wasn't 100% sure until now. So, the newer hardware versions have sync issues with BVMs? Is it similar to the SMS sync issue?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:19 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1348
jwrose wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Is your US Neo Geo AES a 3-1 (first hardware version) by chance? Someone told me that his Neo Geo AES was a 3-1 US model and had no sync issues with RGB on the BKM-68X. Would putting the Extron 203rxi after the Extron Crosspoint mess up other consoles when the sync fix is adjusted for Neo Geo AES?


Open up the cartridge slot and look to the far right with a flash light. You should see "NEO-AES, followed by the board revision number. No number means it's a 3-1


Ah, thanks! Yep, this is a 3-1. I double checked by peeking under the daughter board below the "Neo-AES" and all it said there was "Made in Japan".
Image

Thanks for the heads-up on that. I suspected this was the first hardware version, but I wasn't 100% sure until now. So, the newer hardware versions have sync issues with BVMs? Is it similar to the SMS sync issue?

Nice job and thank you for checking. Well it seems like every SNK Neo Geo AES has sync issues with BVMs, regardless of the region or motherboard revision. Which makes sense. I don't think a different region BIOS or hardware revision would produce a different sync signal. Yeah, every Sega Master System and Sega Mega Drive/Genesis console playing SMS games have sync issues on BVMs as well.

SNK Neo Geo AES Sync Fixes:
  • Extron RGB 203rxi
  • Extron RGB 580xi
  • gscarts

Sega Master System and Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Sync Fix:
  • Extron RGB 580xi

What about mods to the consoles themselves? Like replacing the master clock crystal of the Neo Geo AES to more closely match the NTSC standard of 59.94 Hz. According to this thread on NeoGeo.com, 3-1 and 3-2 revisions run at 59.18hz, while 3-3 through 3-6 revisions run at 61.18hz. 3-1 and 3-2 have a 24mhz crystal and the newer ones use a 24.16mhz crystal.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:38 am 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
GeneraLight wrote:

Sega Master System and Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Sync Fix:
  • Extron RGB 580xi


Interesting, I hadn't heard about the Extron RGB 580xi fixing the SMS sync issues. I just ordered one as they're pretty cheap. Are there certain Genesis' that hav sync issues? Mine is a model 1 and it has no issues. I also use a Sega CD model 2 and a 32x, all without any problems.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:11 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1348
jwrose wrote:
Interesting, I hadn't heard about the Extron RGB 580xi fixing the SMS sync issues. I just ordered one as they're pretty cheap.

Yeah, the Extron 580xi does in fact fix the Sega Master System's sync issues. Bob from RetroRGB did a two part YouTube video series about it.

Sony BVM A-Series and the BKM-68x - Pt 1
Sony BVM A-Series and the BKM-68x - Pt 2

jwrose wrote:
Are there certain Genesis' that hav sync issues? Mine is a model 1 and it has no issues. I also use a Sega CD model 2 and a 32x, all without any problems.

Not exactly. Genesis, Sega CD and 32X games do not have sync issues, but Sega Master System games do still have sync issues on all Sega Mega Drive/Genesis models and revisions.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:20 am 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
GeneraLight wrote:
Yeah, the Extron 580xi does in fact fix the Sega Master System's sync issues. Bob from RetroRGB did a two part YouTube video series about it.

Sony BVM A-Series and the BKM-68x - Pt 1
Sony BVM A-Series and the BKM-68x - Pt 2
Not exactly. Genesis, Sega CD and 32X games do not have sync issues, but Sega Master System games do still have sync issues on all Sega Mega Drive/Genesis models and revisions.


Wow- I don't know how I missed those videos when I was searching a couple months ago on this topic. Thanks!
In regards to SMS games on Genesis- ok, yeah I've experienced that when I tried my Extron SMS adaptor on my Genesis. Game Gear games are pretty weird as well through Genesis/MD aren't they?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:29 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1348
jwrose wrote:
Game Gear games are pretty weird as well through Genesis/MD aren't they?

I don't have any experience with Game Gear so I'm not sure.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:54 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
GeneraLight wrote:

Sony BVM A-Series and the BKM-68x - Pt 1
Sony BVM A-Series and the BKM-68x - Pt 2
Not exactly. Genesis, Sega CD and 32X games do not have sync issues, but Sega Master System games do still have sync issues on all Sega Mega Drive/Genesis models and revisions.


So I finally sat down and watched both of those- great stuff. The 580xi's COMP SYNC option is really interesting. The manual seems to just imply that its doing composite sync when its on. Is there something in the SMS sync signal that is slightly out of spec that this is fixing? Anyway, just thinking out loud.

I mentioned this before but checked again based on the second video and VCR mode. So, I have a BVM-D14H5U and VCR mode is present but is not available (see image below). I noticed that my menu system was a bit different than the video, but that's likely due to different model and software. Any thoughts on why the VCR mode isn't selectable? Before I saw this video, I thought VCR mode was only for composite video or another signal type I wasn't using. I'm using RGB and I think that's what was being used in the video, too.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:11 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1348
jwrose wrote:
So I finally sat down and watched both of those- great stuff. The 580xi's COMP SYNC option is really interesting. The manual seems to just imply that its doing composite sync when its on.

Yes, those videos were very interesting and fun to watch. I definitely learned a lot about A-Series BVMs and console sync issues from them.

jwrose wrote:
Is there something in the SMS sync signal that is slightly out of spec that this is fixing? Anyway, just thinking out loud.

I'm not exactly sure what is out of spec about the SMS signal. I think it has something to do with the sync pulses. Someone on here should know.

jwrose wrote:
I mentioned this before but checked again based on the second video and VCR mode. So, I have a BVM-D14H5U and VCR mode is present but is not available (see image below). I noticed that my menu system was a bit different than the video, but that's likely due to different model and software. Any thoughts on why the VCR mode isn't selectable? Before I saw this video, I thought VCR mode was only for composite video or another signal type I wasn't using. I'm using RGB and I think that's what was being used in the video, too.

Image

After doing some research, it seems that VCR Mode on the 14" and 9" Sony BVMs are only usable with Composite and S-Video signals. So they effectively have the same sync issues as an A-Series BVM when played in RGB.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60403&start=30
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57929&start=120

Fortunately for you though, your BVM-D14 uses the BKM-129X expansion card for RGB and YPbPr, which has been reverse engineered and cloned by Skum. Maybe he'll add a VCR Mode in an update.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65940


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:28 am 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
GeneraLight wrote:

After doing some research, it seems that VCR Mode on the 14" and 9" Sony BVMs are only usable with Composite and S-Video signals. So they effectively have the same sync issues as an A-Series BVM when played in RGB.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60403&start=30
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57929&start=120

Fortunately for you though, your BVM-D14 uses the BKM-129X expansion card for RGB and YPbPr, which has been reverse engineered and cloned by Skum. Maybe he'll add a VCR Mode in an update.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65940


Whoa... that's super interesting. Thanks for sharing.

OK, so I had it in my mind that it was composite only (and s-video, too!) so I'm wondering if I had read in months past and totally forgot the details. Thanks for pointing it out! At least i know its not defective or has some settings that are incorrect. I've only had a BVM for about 7-8 months so there's still a ton I'm learning. I thought I'd would have a year or so to do a bunch of research before actually finding one, and then THREE of the same D series popped up not too far from me. (two from the same seller). I didn't even realize it supported resolutions higher than 480i when I bought it. After hooking up my older systems and thought I was "done" and realized I had a 360 and PS3 sitting in the same room unused and could be hooked up :)


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:26 am 



Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Posts: 82
It took me a while, but I've done all the test I can think of, you'll see that most of my sync issues are probably because slightly off spec frequencies, I also tested an unmodded PAL megadrive and have the same issue as well, the only problem that I've been able to solve with this setup is the skew problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhgcH13zha4


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:49 am 



Joined: 09 Mar 2020
Posts: 17
I recently discovered that the N64 has the same issues as the PS1. You either need an NTSC console to play NTSC games or you need a dual frequency oscillator to operate at the correct frequencies. I suspected as such since I can't get PAL games to sync on my japanese console.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:05 pm 



Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Posts: 82
I've done a table to summarize my results, this corroborates that sync issues on the BVM-A20F1M and BKM-68x are the result of offspec sync signals. I'm considering buying a native NTSC Megadrive, Master System II and Saturn as my PAL consoles just don't work well. EDIT:will do so unless someone can offer hope of a solution that would fix this without adding input lag.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 7:06 am 



Joined: 09 Mar 2020
Posts: 17
I came to the same conclusion. Every system that runs at the wrong speed when playing a game from a different region will not sync.

I believe for Megadrive, Nintendo 64, Playstation and Saturn, you have the option to install a dual oscillator. For Master System, the only fix that I know of is the gscartsw. As for Neogeo I think you can install an oscillator as well but I'm not sure. You can also go the MiSTer route which is working fine for me with a custom core.

I have decided to get a dual oscillator installed for my PS1, N64 and Saturn. I'll report back when I get them. I know it's a lot of fuss and someone once told me to sell the BKM-68x and get a D series or a 20L5 but it's not like I can snap my fingers and find one of these monitors...


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 3:23 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
daty2k1 wrote:
As for Neogeo I think you can install an oscillator as well but I'm not sure. You can also go the MiSTer route which is working fine for me with a custom core..


For my US Neo Geo (and Turbografx 16) on my d series bvm, the Extron RGB 203 RXi did the trick.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 1:15 am 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
I came across another solution for my D series BVM with an accidental purchase. I intended to buy an Extron USP 405 upscaler with SDI. Anyway, I bought one without and decided to try to find a use for it. I ran my Master System into it and I was able to get a good picture with the issue resolved at 720p and 576p. My first two images are 720p and second is 576p. 576p fills the screen better but, of course, sacrifices frame rate since it’s 50hz.

Obviously no scan lines, but it’s another good option. I’m sure other upscalers would do the trick. The Extron scaler I got has lower resolutions- but they all had some weird visual issues with colors not quite right and the middle of the image having a weird shadow like problem. 576p and 720p were the only ones that looked right.

https://ibb.co/zh33TFw
https://ibb.co/NL0P9nj
https://ibb.co/n8dKRTK

Now to try to fit this into my crazy setup chain.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:58 pm 


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Posts: 12183
Location: Germany
any upscaler that doesn't directly lock the output to the input sync will work and "fix" the problem (well, let's call it a workaround instead).

If you want something solid, including scanlines, then a Retrotink2x Scart along with any HDMI to VGA dongle will do a nice job on any CRT having problems with native sync from any system.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:16 pm 



Joined: 01 Apr 2015
Posts: 46
So whats the consensus on the neo geo AES. Which revision serial number is best to invest in,, as in at least getting a stable image with an extron RGB in the chain.

i want to get an aes to replace my mvs


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:19 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2020
Posts: 17
Just get a MiSTer :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:30 pm 



Joined: 01 Apr 2015
Posts: 46
daty2k1 wrote:
Just get a MiSTer :wink:


does the mister sync well with neo geo core on the a series? since the mister will emulate the odd refresh rate


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:39 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2020
Posts: 17
I use a modified version with the refresh rate of a late AES revision and it works perfectly on my A series.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:57 pm 



Joined: 01 Apr 2015
Posts: 46
daty2k1 wrote:
I use a modified version with the refresh rate of a late AES revision and it works perfectly on my A series.


oh really interesting i might just do that,, can you pm me on how to go about what to buy and setup,, if you could spare your time?

Ive never used anything like the mister, I persume that ill also have access to other hardware cores.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:58 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
Saturngamer81 wrote:
So whats the consensus on the neo geo AES. Which revision serial number is best to invest in,, as in at least getting a stable image with an extron RGB in the chain.

i want to get an aes to replace my mvs


Unfortunately a prior owner removed the serial number on mine, but it’s an original hardware version (I forget the number on the board that indicates that) and it does have the issue. So later may be better.
Extron 203Rxi can also fix the signal if you place it in the chain AFTER the crosspoint output.

UPDATE: sorry- I misread and pictured “Extron Crosspoint” when you said “Extron RGB”. Sorry for telling you to do what you were already doing :)


Last edited by jwrose on Fri May 29, 2020 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:02 pm 



Joined: 01 Apr 2015
Posts: 46
jwrose wrote:
Saturngamer81 wrote:
So whats the consensus on the neo geo AES. Which revision serial number is best to invest in,, as in at least getting a stable image with an extron RGB in the chain.

i want to get an aes to replace my mvs


Unfortunately a prior owner removed the serial number on mine, but it’s an original hardware version (I forget the number on the board that indicates that) and it does have the issue. So later may be better.
Extron 203Rxi can also fix the signal if you place it in the chain AFTER the crosspoint output.


does your aes have the 24.00 mhz crystal?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
Saturngamer81 wrote:
jwrose wrote:
Saturngamer81 wrote:
does your aes have the 24.00 mhz crystal?


It must since it’s the first gen AES and has issues. Mine must be a 3-2. When I checked the board previously I remember it being the earliest. Looks like 3-6 has the good crystal, but I’m not sure how early they added it.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:21 pm 



Joined: 01 Apr 2015
Posts: 46
if thats so then the issue with the MVS can be timing, since that has the same refresh rate. it has to be the sync pulse. but when i use my MVS the monitor goes into 576i50 mode like its confused

whats issues with yours aes did you have?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:35 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 37
Saturngamer81 wrote:
if thats so then the issue with the MVS can be timing, since that has the same refresh rate. it has to be the sync pulse. but when i use my MVS the monitor goes into 576i50 mode like its confused

whats issues with yours aes did you have?


It was flagging (top of image was pushed to the right). SERR on my EXTRON RGB solves it.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:46 pm 



Joined: 01 Apr 2015
Posts: 46
jwrose wrote:
Saturngamer81 wrote:
if thats so then the issue with the MVS can be timing, since that has the same refresh rate. it has to be the sync pulse. but when i use my MVS the monitor goes into 576i50 mode like its confused

whats issues with yours aes did you have?


It was flagging (top of image was pushed to the right). SERR on my EXTRON RGB solves it.


if you culd somewhen confirm it is 24.00mhz crystal that would be apreciated, we need to start documenting properly things like this for future users


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