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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:21 pm 


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xga wrote:
superg wrote:
PAL MD1 also works the same as MD2, I don't see the issue on my PVM. It could be that those A series and D series have different problems.
I will check Dreamcast tomorrow. I hope at least all Sega's in question share the same problem, I'm not gonna be able to fix all kind of sync issues with the switch.


You'll probably only get the skew issue on your BVM-D9 with the Sega Master System and AES consoles. It's the A series of BVM's with the RGB input board that have these issues as well as some PAL consoles not able to sync at all.

Yeah, the skew issue was my primary objective. So it's really different issues then.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:54 pm 



Joined: 04 Jun 2015
Posts: 195
superg wrote:
Yeah, the skew issue was my primary objective. So it's really different issues then.


Correct. Two separate issues with "A" series BVM monitors using the BKM-68X RGB input board.

i) Skew issue on certain consoles regardless of PAL / NTSC (e.g. SMS, AES) - (I believe this issue exists on BVM-D9's and BVM-D14's as well, which I think you were able to replicate and fix with firmware on the new gscart)

ii) No sync at all with certain PAL consoles (e.g. Mega Drive, N64) - (Only with "A" series BVM's and BKM-68X RGB board)


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:04 am 


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just wanted to confirm I have a bvm-a20f1m with 68x card and it won't sync with my jp neo geo AES, nor will it sync with my jp genesis when playing master system games. in these cases the picture looks almost correct except for the top part of the image which is warped.

https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8288/2902 ... c02324.jpg

all of my other consoles (snes, nes, gamecube, dreamcast, etc, all japanese) work just fine.

very appreciative of superg's work, it's a great monitor and I'd love to be able to play all my consoles on it.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:38 am 



Joined: 31 Dec 2018
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You can handle the sync bending with consoles like Dreamcast/AES with any Extron that has SERR (serration). It's an issue with many of the modern pro monitors.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:43 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
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superg wrote:
I can't reproduce the issue on my BVM-D9H5U using PAL Mega Drive 2, behaves the same as Genesis 2, native mode is fine, SMS mode isn't.
Will try my PAL MD1 next.

Same here, I was never able to reproduce the issue with a French PAL, or UK PAL Genesis. SMS, PCE, Neo Geo and 480p Dreamcast all had problems for me. Some weird stuff too, like Midway (Mortal Kombat) arcade boards.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:02 pm 


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retrorgb wrote:
superg wrote:
I can't reproduce the issue on my BVM-D9H5U using PAL Mega Drive 2, behaves the same as Genesis 2, native mode is fine, SMS mode isn't.
Will try my PAL MD1 next.

Same here, I was never able to reproduce the issue with a French PAL, or UK PAL Genesis. SMS, PCE, Neo Geo and 480p Dreamcast all had problems for me. Some weird stuff too, like Midway (Mortal Kombat) arcade boards.

PAL MD1 is also fine in native mode.
When you say Dreamcast 480p it's HVSYNC so an external sync combiner have to be used, right? I mean it could be that sync combiner doesn't do it up to spec, but there are several solutions so it would be hard to localize the issue and also I doubt it's the same problem as on SMS.
Yeah, Mortal Kombat arcade output sync is so bad that it's a pure coincidence that it works on some devices (at least the specific thing I've seen on your RGB-PI device when launching Mortal Kombat).
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:27 am 



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retrorgb wrote:
I was never able to reproduce the issue with a French PAL, or UK PAL Genesis.


retrorgb, this is very interesting. Can you recall if the French PAL and UK PAL Mega Drives you tested were Model 1's or something else? I wonder what is different with these PAL Mega Drives that you were able to get to sync with the A20F1 monitor? I've tried both Model 1 and Model 2 PAL Mega Drives with my A20F1 monitor and both are unable to sync at all, so perhaps there is a difference with one (or some) of the PAL VA revisions that allows them to sync correctly?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:39 am 



Joined: 05 Jul 2016
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So I just want to confirm that new GScartSW will also fix this (https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... =undefined) Dreamcast issue with Sony BVM D24E1WU and there's no need for Extron device in chain anymore?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:48 pm 


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Decoryah wrote:
So I just want to confirm that new GScartSW will also fix this (https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... =undefined) Dreamcast issue with Sony BVM D24E1WU and there's no need for Extron device in chain anymore?

Right now what I fixed is SMS sync problem. I'm not sure whether it's related to the Dreamcast issue.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:06 pm 



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What I understand and what is my experience with Sony BVM-D24 monitor is that with SMS, PCE, Neo Geo MVS/AES and Dreamcast in 240p/480i you get the curved image on top of the screen. With D-series monitor you can solve this by VCR mode option in service menu but A-series apparently doesn't have that. VCR mode option in the other hand isn't available in 480p so you need an Extron RGB interface and SERR switch enabled in your chain to fix that curved image there. I just wondered if this new development with GScartSW switch would also solve the case where Dreamcast is in 480p mode? I'm sure all the other 240p/480i cases with different consoles will get fixed at the same time if SuperG has solved image curving with SMS console.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:23 pm 


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Decoryah wrote:
What I understand and what is my experience with Sony BVM-D24 monitor is that with SMS, PCE, Neo Geo MVS/AES and Dreamcast in 240p/480i you get the curved image on top of the screen. With D-series monitor you can solve this by VCR mode option in service menu but A-series apparently doesn't have that. VCR mode option in the other hand isn't available in 480p so you need an Extron RGB interface and SERR switch enabled in your chain to fix that curved image there. I just wondered if this new development with GScartSW switch would also solve the case where Dreamcast is in 480p mode? I'm sure all the other 240p/480i cases with different consoles will get fixed at the same time if SuperG has solved image curving with SMS console.

I just meant not to get your hopes high :)
Visually SMS issue, at least on my BVM-D9, is flickering in the top portion of the screen where top is bent, it takes 1/4 of the screen and it's really terrible. I am 90% sure that static Dreamcast image curving is a consequence of incorrect HV sync combining which is done by external device, not the Dreamcast. Am I missing something here?
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:37 pm 



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Yes I think you might be right. With Dreamcast in 480p through Toro curving looks like this: https://i.redd.it/zexhsxwh1zdz.jpg. With other consoles in 240p curving looks like this: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SkslzaHJXzE/maxresdefault.jpg. So it doesn't look exactly same. So is Toro doing something wrong which Extron RGB interface can then fix somehow?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:16 pm 



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I've been loosely following this topic because of the similar (to the A-series) sync issues I've had on my D9's and D14's with 129X card, and wanted to chime in. Has anybody else experienced these sync problems on one monitor, then used the same exact console with the same game, same exact cable, same exact input card on another identical-model monitor and had it work just fine? (I've tried different input cards as well FYI).

My sample size isn't huge, I think 2x D9's and maybe 3x D14's, along with probably 4ish different 129X cards. Sadly I don't think I owned a pair of matching monitors at the same time (honestly, I usually sold these pretty quick because of sync issues and other oddities I couldn't stand) so I could be screwing up this test, but I'm 99% positive I've had the same exact 1CHIP-03 SNES (CSYNC) for example work on one D9/D14 (or on two D9's, or two D14's), then not work on another - sometimes with the same exact 129X card (I always keep one of those around to test any of these monitors I might find). PCE is the other console which worked on one but not the other, and for the longest time I only have one of those consoles and only one cable so it was definitely the same exact everything tested on two monitors of the same series. One guy I sold a D14 to and warned him it wouldn't sync to PCE/TG16 wrote me back saying it works fine on his... (want to say we both had the SSDS3 too...) - which is likewise weird.

These were all extremely low hour monitors too - think D9's had under 3-4K (which is pretty normal), one D14 had something insanely low like 1,400 (1.4K), others maybe 10K-ish...so we're talking about fairly low use equipment too.

...just wanted to add the above to the oddity of these monitors, and if I had to guess I would say these sync issues are even dependent on the exact monitor you're testing - so saying a blanket statement that XYZ console works (or doesn't work) on ABC monitor isn't always foolproof since a bit of this might actually be monitor-dependent. This is turning the tables a bit I think. We're all used to certain consoles having like fifty different hardware revisions, so one revision might work on a monitor, while another console revision might NOT work on that same exact monitor, but it's kinda rare from what I can tell for monitors themselves to be likewise fickle.



Anyway, wish I took more pictures and kept better records, but these are the only two pics I could find of my issues. I think this one below is the more common problem people have on the A-series:

Image




This is the second most common problem I've had on D9, D14, and ironically even a couple Sony consumer HD CRT sets (when running 240p content). I want to say with PCE too.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:00 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
My sample size isn't huge, I think 2x D9's and maybe 3x D14's, along with probably 4ish different 129X cards. Sadly I don't think I owned a pair of matching monitors at the same time (honestly, I usually sold these pretty quick because of sync issues and other oddities I couldn't stand) so I could be screwing up this test, but I'm 99% positive I've had the same exact 1CHIP-03 SNES (CSYNC) for example work on one D9/D14 (or on two D9's, or two D14's), then not work on another - sometimes with the same exact 129X card (I always keep one of those around to test any of these monitors I might find). PCE is the other console which worked on one but not the other, and for the longest time I only have one of those consoles and only one cable so it was definitely the same exact everything tested on two monitors of the same series. One guy I sold a D14 to and warned him it wouldn't sync to PCE/TG16 wrote me back saying it works fine on his... (want to say we both had the SSDS3 too...) - which is likewise weird.

These were all extremely low hour monitors too - think D9's had under 3-4K (which is pretty normal), one D14 had something insanely low like 1,400 (1.4K), others maybe 10K-ish...so we're talking about fairly low use equipment too.

...just wanted to add the above to the oddity of these monitors, and if I had to guess I would say these sync issues are even dependent on the exact monitor you're testing - so saying a blanket statement that XYZ console works (or doesn't work) on ABC monitor isn't always foolproof since a bit of this might actually be monitor-dependent. This is turning the tables a bit I think. We're all used to certain consoles having like fifty different hardware revisions, so one revision might work on a monitor, while another console revision might NOT work on that same exact monitor, but it's kinda rare from what I can tell for monitors themselves to be likewise fickle.

As far as I know, all kind of SNES (given that RGB mod required on some models was done right) are proven to work on PVM/BVM's. There can be numerous explanations to why it didn't work on some of your PVM's starting from firmware differences and ending with dry capacitors. Also what I want to mention is that for capacitors low hours don't matter. Capacitor dries out because of age. True that higher temperature will accelerate this but thing is that most of the professional equipment we use are from 1990-200x and is already failing.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:56 pm 



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Any news about definitive solution for Sync in BVM-A with BKM-68X?

I have a Sync Strike to connect Scart consoles to BKM-68X.

I can synchronize all consoles PAL 60Hz modded and PCB Jamma arcade like Double Dragon, NEO-GEO MVS, CPS1 with a GSCARTSW?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:11 am 


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RGB-A wrote:
Any news about definitive solution for Sync in BVM-A with BKM-68X?

I have a Sync Strike to connect Scart consoles to BKM-68X.

I can synchronize all consoles PAL 60Hz modded and PCB Jamma arcade like Double Dragon, NEO-GEO MVS, CPS1 with a GSCARTSW?

So far I can say that only SMS has been fixed for D series BVM. Maybe some of the new switch owners can try the other configurations and report back. I don't have any of the mentioned stuff here.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:17 am 



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superg wrote:
RGB-A wrote:
Any news about definitive solution for Sync in BVM-A with BKM-68X?

I have a Sync Strike to connect Scart consoles to BKM-68X.

I can synchronize all consoles PAL 60Hz modded and PCB Jamma arcade like Double Dragon, NEO-GEO MVS, CPS1 with a GSCARTSW?

So far I can say that only SMS has been fixed for D series BVM. Maybe some of the new switch owners can try the other configurations and report back. I don't have any of the mentioned stuff here.

What's the sync solution for Sega Master System on BVM A-Series? Why won't the same solution work with NeoGeo?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:55 am 


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GeneraLight wrote:
What's the sync solution for Sega Master System on BVM A-Series? Why won't the same solution work with NeoGeo?

Read my posts in this thread, it had been explained for SMS. If the source of NeoGeo issue is the same as in SMS it all can be corrected by the newest gscartsw with DIP 3 toggle.
I have neither BVM-A monitor nor arcade stuff here thus I can't check it with scope.
And by what others pointed out in this thread, BVM-A has other specific issues which I'm unable to reproduce on my BVM-D.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:05 pm 



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superg wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
What's the sync solution for Sega Master System on BVM A-Series? Why won't the same solution work with NeoGeo?

Read my posts in this thread, it had been explained for SMS. If the source of NeoGeo issue is the same as in SMS it all can be corrected by the newest gscartsw with DIP 3 toggle.
I have neither BVM-A monitor nor arcade stuff here thus I can't check it with scope.
And by what others pointed out in this thread, BVM-A has other specific issues which I'm unable to reproduce on my BVM-D.

What are these other issues that BVM-A series have besides sync?


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:30 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
What are these other issues that BVM-A series have besides sync?

I meant other sync issues. It's all here, couple of posts back.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:52 pm 



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superg wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
What are these other issues that BVM-A series have besides sync?

I meant other sync issues. It's all here, couple of posts back.

I see. This solution for the Sega Master System isn't even perfect as it will degrade the image quality very slightly. Not to mention having to buy a gscartsw with SCART cables if your setup is exclusively BNC.

All in all, the A-Series BVMs are simply a downgrade from the D-Series BVMs. They have sync issues, have less expansion board slots than the D-Series BVMs, can't use the BKM-11R remote, don't come with analog RGB/YPbPr by default, and are way more expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:14 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
This solution for the Sega Master System isn't even perfect as it will degrade the image quality very slightly.

Totally untrue, don't know where did you get it from.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:04 am 



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superg wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
This solution for the Sega Master System isn't even perfect as it will degrade the image quality very slightly.

Totally untrue, don't know where did you get it from.

MyLifeInGaming did a visual comparison between a direct connection and the gscartsw and at the time of this video, the gscartsw degraded the image quality a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998tBzpJhVo


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:32 am 


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GeneraLight wrote:
MyLifeInGaming did a visual comparison between a direct connection and the gscartsw and at the time of this video, the gscartsw degraded the image quality a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998tBzpJhVo

First of all it was the older prototype switch version I've sent them. Second, every processing in a chain introduces slight degradation and it's perfectly normal, the more you process the signal, the bigger it is. Actually even this older version was best when it comes to brightness loss. Also SMS fix is very precise and it won't affect anything else. There is no other minimum latency / minimum degradation solution.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:25 pm 



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superg wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
MyLifeInGaming did a visual comparison between a direct connection and the gscartsw and at the time of this video, the gscartsw degraded the image quality a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=998tBzpJhVo

First of all it was the older prototype switch version I've sent them. Second, every processing in a chain introduces slight degradation and it's perfectly normal, the more you process the signal, the bigger it is. Actually even this older version was best when it comes to brightness loss. Also SMS fix is very precise and it won't affect anything else. There is no other minimum latency / minimum degradation solution.


An Extron matrix switcher has no quality loss but that costs a fortune in cables and really isn't a good solution due to it's immens bulkiness. Your Gscart solution is the best and cheapest option for the best result with it's great price to performance ratio. On a professional CRT (PVM of BVM) the difference isn't noticeable between a direct connection, Extron matrix switcher or Gscart. Not even in direct comparisons.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 pm 


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H6rdc0re wrote:
An Extron matrix switcher has no quality loss but that costs a fortune in cables and really isn't a good solution due to it's immens bulkiness. Your Gscart solution is the best and cheapest option for the best result with it's great price to performance ratio. On a professional CRT (PVM of BVM) the difference isn't noticeable between a direct connection, Extron matrix switcher or Gscart. Not even in direct comparisons.

gscartsw will perform equally well or better in the same Extron environment. Extron is an active switch with a lot of processing. I also claim that sync processing (regeneration and now SMS fix) is faster on gscartsw :) but I never checked that, I just know the implementation details. I would be very interested to see some independent comparisons with some proper methodology. What people usually do is comparing direct connection and connection through the switch. When you do this you inevitably change the cable length (same console to switch cable and additional switch to monitor cable). And cable matters! During all these years of gscartsw iterations and troubleshooting I can say that this is the cleanest as I could get it.

The true "lossless" switching is mechanical (but you have to factor in cable length / performance) but that's really nothing to talk about as there isn't any logic there.

EDIT: I never owned any Extron switch. If it's manual-only and built using relays it basically means it's mechanical and it would be incorrect to compare it to gscartsw.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:17 am 



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superg wrote:
EDIT: I never owned any Extron switch. If it's manual-only and built using relays it basically means it's mechanical and it would be incorrect to compare it to gscartsw.


You really should grab one man, no offense to your awesomely engineered (with the gamer in mind) switch, but the Crosspoints are the gold professional-environment standard with good cause for decades (heck, we're talking nearly every broadcast room during the good old SD TV days, every movie house that made Hollywood block busters, every single ~quarter-million+ square foot convention center, and even NASA and NSA and I'm sure tons of other 'mission critical' type places used them). I honestly only use Crosspoints instead of Gscarts so I can loop in and out all the transcoders/up-downscalers and such I use (nearly filled up a 32x32 switch), and because it can handle CV, YC, YPbPr, RGsB, RGBS, RGBHV/VGA, etc. (which I completely know was not your intention with your product).

Anyway (and yes I'm a fanboy lol ;) to answer the question though, I don't think the Crosspoints would be considered a mechanical switch (which I think of something like a Bandridge non-automatic in that category) - as in nothing physically moves inside, it's all routed through the circuitry (don't know if those are 'relays' or not) - so much so that I can even wirelessly hook up a tablet to it and switch it through their web interface. Normal use though, it might be considered non-automatic since you do physically have to press buttons to switch the signal.


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
You really should grab one man, no offense to your awesomely engineered (with the gamer in mind) switch, but the Crosspoints are the gold professional-environment standard with good cause for decades (heck, we're talking nearly every broadcast room during the good old SD TV days, every movie house that made Hollywood block busters, every single ~quarter-million+ square foot convention center, and even NASA and NSA and I'm sure tons of other 'mission critical' type places used them). I honestly only use Crosspoints instead of Gscarts so I can loop in and out all the transcoders/up-downscalers and such I use (nearly filled up a 32x32 switch), and because it can handle CV, YC, YPbPr, RGsB, RGBS, RGBHV/VGA, etc. (which I completely know was not your intention with your product).

Anyway (and yes I'm a fanboy lol ;) to answer the question though, I don't think the Crosspoints would be considered a mechanical switch (which I think of something like a Bandridge non-automatic in that category) - as in nothing physically moves inside, it's all routed through the circuitry (don't know if those are 'relays' or not) - so much so that I can even wirelessly hook up a tablet to it and switch it through their web interface. Normal use though, it might be considered non-automatic since you do physically have to press buttons to switch the signal.

You are clearly missing the point. Let's keep to the topic. If you feel like discussing technical aspects, you're more than welcome to post to gscartsw support thread.
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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:43 am 



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superg wrote:
You are clearly missing the point. Let's keep to the topic. If you feel like discussing technical aspects, you're more than welcome to post to gscartsw support thread.


Lol. No, I'm not missing the point, I was simply replying, be it off-topic or not, explicitly to your post:

You said you never owned an Extron switch, which as a designer of a switch of your own kinda blew my mind that you would never have owned the defacto industry-standard switch so of course I would reply to something that boggled my mind! (as this forum is all about learning about EVERYTHING we use to play Shmups on).

I then proceeded, to the best of my ability, to try to answer if the Crosspoints were mechanical switches or not. That's all - just being friendly by posting some info, if it helps or not ;)


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 Post subject: Re: BVM-A20F1M Sega consoles Sync problems
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:55 am 



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I'm thinking about grabbing a gscartw for the sync regeneration, automatic switching and cheaper cables. Is the Extron Crosspoint a manual or automatic switcher? Is it active or passive? Any degradation in image quality from an Extron Crosspoint?


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