Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

Gunstar wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Uhh, well, I got the regulator board and popped it in and when I turned it on the power LED on the N64 was flickering so I have it unplugged right now...

Thanks for the continuity test points Gunstar, all looked good with the board itself. I snipped the original 3.3V line on the ribbon connector, checked that I didn't manage to bridge a pin where the ribbon cable connected originally, and hooked the 3.3V from the new regulator board up to the larger pad on the N64RGB...

No clue what else to look at.
With my first attempt, the N64 didn't power on so I uninstalled the regulator board and decided to remove a fair bit of the old solder from the three target pins. I then added a bit of fresh solder before connecting the regulator board again and it worked. I'm not sure how well it was mixing with the old existing solder plus it's hard to see as it gets obscured but try giving that shot, hopefully, it works for you too.
I'll give that a shot later tonight- I think I'll remove the regulator board and just see what the power light looks like, it's only powering the N64RGB after all. Actually, composite might even work fine without it to test maybe?

EDIT: Replaced the wire since it had gotten pinched when I put the console together last time, went over the ribbon cable 3.3v pad again, and reflowed the solder on the regulator board. Everything was fine until I screwed the console back together, then the power light is back to blinking. What the heck.

EDIT 2: Okay, insulated the board and all is well now. It must have been just tall enough to make contact with the metal shielding on the bottom of the system ONLY when I screwed the motherboard back down tight. Gunstar, if you didn't happen to insulate your board, maybe the same thing happened, but you got it a little more flush with the N64 motherboard after removing some solder from the 3 pins, so that fixed it for you?

Either way, much improved now, the horizontal line noise is gone from solid colors. There's still some snow-like random noise in certain colors, but that could be inherent to the system or the R2R ladder approach on Tim's N64RGB. Maybe I'll try the ground wire another day, since my modder also didn't install it.
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Gunstar
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Gunstar »

Glad you got it sorted! Good thinking, that could be very likely why it didn't work the first time for me. I'll go back and insulate for peace of mind, thanks for the tip.
Lonny S Miller
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Lonny S Miller »

Is there a way I can get some info from anyone please turn on doing just N64 RGB upgrade...
Or I see that the gametech website has been updated but they are not taking any new orders. I'm very interested in buying 10 to 20 Ultra HDMI kids also doing slight LED mods to the systems. I hope I am not on the wrong thread I really am very pretentious because of all of the long waiting and I just discovered about Ultra HDMI and RGV in the past few months and I see that everyone has had ultimate success with the NES. Anyone anywhere that could help me out with some information or to get on a list even or even get a couple of kits or installs of kits done please let me know
Lebeauluc
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Lebeauluc »

Sorry for the newbie question, but I have installed the n64rgb board back in 2016 and haven't really touch my nintendo64 since then. Back then I was aware of the noise and I haven't installed the 3.3V regulator by Borti which at the moment I am trying to build. But I am quite unsure about something, it says on the board :
C1: 10-100uF/16V+ (SMD0805-1210)
C2: 10-100uF/6.3V+ (SMD0805-1210)

Does that mean that any value between 10-100uF is good or is it one capacitor at 10uF and other one at 100uF no distinction made?
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Gunstar
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Gunstar »

Lebeauluc wrote:Sorry for the newbie question, but I have installed the n64rgb board back in 2016 and haven't really touch my nintendo64 since then. Back then I was aware of the noise and I haven't installed the 3.3V regulator by Borti which at the moment I am trying to build. But I am quite unsure about something, it says on the board :
C1: 10-100uF/16V+ (SMD0805-1210)
C2: 10-100uF/6.3V+ (SMD0805-1210)

Does that mean that any value between 10-100uF is good or is it one capacitor at 10uF and other one at 100uF no distinction made?
Yeah, any value between 10 and 100 uF (including 10 and 100 uF) will work. The same goes for the SMD size suggestions.
Lebeauluc
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Lebeauluc »

Gunstar wrote:
Lebeauluc wrote:Sorry for the newbie question, but I have installed the n64rgb board back in 2016 and haven't really touch my nintendo64 since then. Back then I was aware of the noise and I haven't installed the 3.3V regulator by Borti which at the moment I am trying to build. But I am quite unsure about something, it says on the board :
C1: 10-100uF/16V+ (SMD0805-1210)
C2: 10-100uF/6.3V+ (SMD0805-1210)

Does that mean that any value between 10-100uF is good or is it one capacitor at 10uF and other one at 100uF no distinction made?
Yeah, any value between 10 and 100 uF (including 10 and 100 uF) will work. The same goes for the SMD size suggestions.
Awesome, thank you!
bytesaber
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bytesaber »

The N64RGB30 says it supports either RGB or Component video output. Generally I am just using RGB output from the board, with an HD Retrovision SNES cable to adapt the RGB output to Component video for my HDTV. However, if I did choose to output Component from the board... do cables exist that could use of that?
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by TooBeaucoup »

bytesaber wrote:The N64RGB30 says it supports either RGB or Component video output. Generally I am just using RGB output from the board, with an HD Retrovision SNES cable to adapt the RGB output to Component video for my HDTV. However, if I did choose to output Component from the board... do cables exist that could use of that?
I use HD Retrovision's SNES component cables with my N64 Tim Worthington board. It works great!
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

bytesaber wrote:The N64RGB30 says it supports either RGB or Component video output. Generally I am just using RGB output from the board, with an HD Retrovision SNES cable to adapt the RGB output to Component video for my HDTV. However, if I did choose to output Component from the board... do cables exist that could use of that?
https://twitter.com/jeffqchen/status/14 ... Q2z6QHAV8A
bytesaber
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bytesaber »

It will take some time for the boards and parts to arrive, but I am going to make this and try it. Thank you!
strayan
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

I’m pretty sure someone was doing a run on these but can’t remember who unfortunately.

Alternatively you could probably adapt a cheap scart cable with one of these: https://www.vhydefirm.com/index.php?mai ... _id=251222

There are a bunch of cables on aliexpress too but I would be surprised if they had pins wired on the rgb lines e.g. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 1512%21rec
bytesaber
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bytesaber »

I have a DLC9G Xilinx programmer. I used to use it for doing GCvideo projects. Can this programmer, along with Impact 11.1, update the firmware to borti4938's deblur firmware onto a old N64RGB12 ? I am trying to get it prepared with the deblur ability for IGR or physical switch. Impact seems to want .ipf files, and borti and viletim provide .pof files.

https://github.com/borti4938/n64rgb_fw4 ... s/tag/v1.1

I am also assuming that the 1.2 firmware on Tim's page does not do what I need. Is this still true?

Thanks
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Syntax
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Syntax »

I think it would be much more wise to avoid wasting any more time pondering if you can use your programmer and instead spend $10 on a USB Blaster.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by maxtherabbit »

Syntax wrote:I think it would be much more wise to avoid wasting any more time pondering if you can use your programmer and instead spend $10 on a USB Blaster.
that's what I did, no regrets
bytesaber
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bytesaber »

Syntax wrote:I think it would be much more wise to avoid wasting any more time pondering if you can use your programmer and instead spend $10 on a USB Blaster.
Ah! So Altera for Altera, and Xilinx for Xilinx. I didn't really know that lol. I just figured JTAG connection meant the right gear.

I did search for Altera programmers before, and saw much more expensive prices. I do see various $10 ones too. I'm guessing this is me realizing clones vs name brand. Something like this one appropriate? Do you have a recommendation?

RioRand USB Blaster,ALTERA CPLD/FPGA Download Cable,Double Buffer Chip Supports 1.2V to 5V Voltage https://a.co/d/431feVK

Do any come with a breakout cable like my Xilinx? I saw a mention earlier in this thread, where you suggested diagrams from an NES project for pinout with the ribbon cable. I could probably adapt that with header pins.
Freedy
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Freedy »

Hi,

I am experiencing some shimmering with my N64 advanced board. Do you have some tips what should I check, or maybe what part should I replace on the rgb board?

I have the latest firmware, using a samsung 4k tv via component input.
The N64 is PAL, using Line 2x setting, filter board - filter bypass
I tried different component cables, cheap wii component cable from china, with an n64 plug soldered to it, an n64 component cable from china, and even an original xbox 360 component cable with an n64 plug soldered to it. I experience the shimmering with all of these cables.

I tested the tv's component input with a ps3, and ps2, I didn't experience shimmering with them.

The shimmering is not that serious, in game from normal viewing distance is not really visible, but from close, the shimmering can be seen basically on every letter of the OSD or some game elements.

I made some pictures about the installation and the test pattern showing jailbars. I also made a video about the shimmering.

https://imgur.com/a/cR5XLjC
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

Freedy wrote:Hi,

I am experiencing some shimmering with my N64 advanced board. Do you have some tips what should I check, or maybe what part should I replace on the rgb board?

I have the latest firmware, using a samsung 4k tv via component input.
The N64 is PAL, using Line 2x setting, filter board - filter bypass
I tried different component cables, cheap wii component cable from china, with an n64 plug soldered to it, an n64 component cable from china, and even an original xbox 360 component cable with an n64 plug soldered to it. I experience the shimmering with all of these cables.

I tested the tv's component input with a ps3, and ps2, I didn't experience shimmering with them.

The shimmering is not that serious, in game from normal viewing distance is not really visible, but from close, the shimmering can be seen basically on every letter of the OSD or some game elements.

I made some pictures about the installation and the test pattern showing jailbars. I also made a video about the shimmering.

https://imgur.com/a/cR5XLjC
I have not installed this board so I'm just taking an educated guess- are you able to shorten the digital signal wires at all? Does the problem go away if you have the console open and move the wires around? For Tim's RGB board the analog output wires should be kept as far away as possible from the digital input wires- the separation looks good for your install but you may notice a change if you try to separate them further.

Jailbars I don't have any ideas on...
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Freedy
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Freedy »

bobrocks95 wrote:
I have not installed this board so I'm just taking an educated guess- are you able to shorten the digital signal wires at all? Does the problem go away if you have the console open and move the wires around? For Tim's RGB board the analog output wires should be kept as far away as possible from the digital input wires- the separation looks good for your install but you may notice a change if you try to separate them further.

Jailbars I don't have any ideas on...
Moving around the wires doesn't make it better unfortunately.
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Kez
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Kez »

Freedy wrote:I am experiencing some shimmering with my N64 advanced board. Do you have some tips what should I check
I wonder if it could be power related - do you have any other N64 PSUs you can try on it?
Freedy
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Freedy »

Kez wrote:
Freedy wrote:I am experiencing some shimmering with my N64 advanced board. Do you have some tips what should I check
I wonder if it could be power related - do you have any other N64 PSUs you can try on it?
I have two PSUs, both are original and have been recapped. The picture is the same with both.

I am thinking, that something is wrong with the board itself, maybe some caps are not the correct value or something. But after the DAC there is not much capacitor, and it gets the power straight(there is a ferrite bead between them) from the n64's 5V line. Maybe I should start replacing some components from a different source, but I don't even know where to begin.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

How much slack is on the wires for the digital input? As in, how much shorter could they be if you redid them? From what I've read on here before I thought dancing pixels was mostly a problem with interference on digital lines.
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Freedy
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Freedy »

bobrocks95 wrote:How much slack is on the wires for the digital input? As in, how much shorter could they be if you redid them? From what I've read on here before I thought dancing pixels was mostly a problem with interference on digital lines.
I could shorten them by a few cm. I checked out the flex cable borti designed, I don't think my cable is longer than that, but the flex has an IC to buffer the digital lines.

I don't know if it would make any difference, but I'm thinking about ordering the smaller, RCP2PADs flex cable, that also has a place for the buffer IC,but first I will try cutting the wires a bit shorter.

EDIT:
I've cut off some of the wires, the picture is the same. I also shorten the 3.3v wire and the gnd wire under the 3.3v pad.
picture of how much I could cut off: https://imgur.com/v5JClbG
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

Freedy wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:How much slack is on the wires for the digital input? As in, how much shorter could they be if you redid them? From what I've read on here before I thought dancing pixels was mostly a problem with interference on digital lines.
I could shorten them by a few cm. I checked out the flex cable borti designed, I don't think my cable is longer than that, but the flex has an IC to buffer the digital lines.

I don't know if it would make any difference, but I'm thinking about ordering the smaller, RCP2PADs flex cable, that also has a place for the buffer IC,but first I will try cutting the wires a bit shorter.

EDIT:
I've cut off some of the wires, the picture is the same. I also shorten the 3.3v wire and the gnd wire under the 3.3v pad.
picture of how much I could cut off: https://imgur.com/v5JClbG
Ah, not a big difference at all. From the first picture I thought maybe you had 6+ inches of slack but that's pretty tight. I've definitely seen examples of additional components on the digital lines helping, not sure if they were buffers and which problems they fixed, though it's probably all in this thread.
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Josh128
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Josh128 »

** Disclaimer**-- my opinions on this are based on outputting a real N64 to a 36" trinitron via RGB with the old school RGB amp method.

Ive been playing around with the MiSTer and its awesome N64 core in the past couple weeks, and found some rather interesting stuff that led down yet another interesting rabbit hole. The MiSTer, like the emulator ParaLLEl N64, emulates the N64 RCP at a low level, and enables you to set certain VI (video interface) registers. Whilst playing around on my 1440p monitor with the MiSTer, I tried different settings, but came across two that really make the N64 "pop". VI Dither, and VI Divot. Turning off dither removes a vaseline like color filter that hides dithering present in 16 bit color mode games. VI Divot does something really unique to some textures, such as the windows on the castle, the trunks of the puffy trees, and fences and bannisters in SM64---it removes some sort of specific blur filter on such objects but leaves untouched everything else. It makes them more easily visible at a distance, yet does not make them appear pixelated.

The VI Antialias, which infamously and unfairly takes most of the blame for many N64 games blurry look, actually doesnt do anything at all to add blur to textures or bitmaps, all it does is smooth line edges and intersections, and I have found that it most definitely needs to stay On/ at default for games that use AA (most of them). On games that dont use AA, toggling it makes no difference and will not apply AA to a non AA game. Anyways, enough about N64 on MiSTer.


On a real N64 and games, many of the same options available in the MiSTer core can be either enabled via game shark or pre-patched into the game ROMs. Below is a great page on ways to do this. Ive found that the U64aap044.zip program set that Saturnu created is superior to the set of .ips/.aps patches by Porregon because the U64AAP044 program allows you to individually toggle dither or divot on or off apart from turning off the AA. This is significant because when you turn off the AA via the known methods, it doesnt just turn off AA, it turns off the dither filter and the divot filter as well.

Ive found that just turning off the dither filter is the single best sharpening mod, as it seems to lift a veil of vaseline-like smear from all the textures of 3D rendered objects. It sharpens them quite visibly. The downside to this is that on darker scenery especially (Castlevania is a prime example), the dithering is very visible and can be distracting. Personally though, for me, even heavily dithered scenes are worth the tradeoff for the blur removal. Interestingly enough, even on pure 2D games like Rampage: World Tour, turning this dither filter off really sharpens the image, making it look more crisp and with better contrast between colors, equaling or bettering the PS1 2D output, which Ive always found noticeably sharper than N64.

Second is the Divot filter. As mentioned above, it only works on seemingly 2D objects working in a 3D space, but turning it off removes a level of blur from them and looks superior in all cases that Ive seen, with no downsides that I know of.

Last is AA. Using the .ips patches and possibly Gameshark codes (not sure if you can piecemeal those) to turn off AA is misleading, because they also turn off the dither and divot filters-- the two most responsible for cleaning up the image. Those aside, turning off the AA itself is not good. Line and polygon edges become remarkably rough and jagged, and Ive not found a single game that I prefer to turn AA off vs just turning off the divot and dither filters. From all the methods Ive seen, turning off AA also turns off divot and dither, and theres no way to just turn off AA by itself-- except on the MiSTer.

Oh and also, the horizontal 640/320 blur is not possible as of yet to turn off with any of these registers, but when gaming on a very sharp 36" Trinitron I really couldnt see the difference when I tried it on an N64 RGB a few years ago, try that I did. It is possible with the MiSTer though.

In any case, if you havent dont it yet, give U64aap044.zip a try and experiment with just dither and divot filters without touching AA. The difference from those alone is very impressive to me. Some games, like SoTE, Blast Corps, and KI Gold dont work with it and I havent seen Gameshark codes for them yet, (Well I did see one for SoTE PAL version, but havent tried it) so Im guessing no one was able to find the VI register addresses for those for some reason. I have half a mind to try myself but dont know if I ever will.




https://consolemods.org/wiki/N64:N64blur
Last edited by Josh128 on Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

I've been trying to fix the horrible noise dithering on Wonder Project J2 and the author of the N64 core informed me that it's likely in the game's VI rendering code itself and not something that can be removed by just changing the VI registers- that might be what's happening with the other games you mentioned as well.

Also want to clarify that it's actually more like a "de-dither filter". It is a smoothing/blur pass that is intended to hide the effects of the dithering. It won't disable the dithering itself (that again seems to require more intensive patching), but depending on how strong the dithering in a game is, may look nicer according to your taste.
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vol.2
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by vol.2 »

bobrocks95 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:12 pmbut depending on how strong the dithering in a game is, may look nicer according to your taste.
Dithering looks fantastic when viewed on a CRT that's going to blur the dithered edges together. I first played the EGA version of Monkey Island, and I thought the dithering was beautiful. Trying to play it now in emulation on an higher resolution monitor doesn't look anything like the same though
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Josh128
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Josh128 »

bobrocks95 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:12 pm
I've been trying to fix the horrible noise dithering on Wonder Project J2 and the author of the N64 core informed me that it's likely in the game's VI rendering code itself and not something that can be removed by just changing the VI registers- that might be what's happening with the other games you mentioned as well.

Also want to clarify that it's actually more like a "de-dither filter". It is a smoothing/blur pass that is intended to hide the effects of the dithering. It won't disable the dithering itself (that again seems to require more intensive patching), but depending on how strong the dithering in a game is, may look nicer according to your taste.
Note that my preference for dither over blur is 100% based on using a real N64 on a 15KHz CRT via RGB / component.

Yes, it is a dither filter (or de-ditherer, if you will :mrgreen: ) that basically filters out visible dithering present in the image if my explanation wasnt quite clear. The clarity it adds to most textures is quite striking to me-- if you look at the castle wall from a distance at the start of Mario 64 and toggle it on the MiSTer, its a huge visible improvement on the textures. Same with the divot filter. You cant toggle them in real time on the N64, but the results match that of the MiSTer.

So with Wonder Project J2, it has these dithering issues by default and you are trying to turn on the filters to patch them out? Does U64aap allow you to change anything for that game? IIRC, someone posted on Reddit a long while back that the dithering on the cars bothered them, and they were able to patch the rom to turn on the dithering filter and it worked for them. If you havent yet tried it, maybe it would work for this one?
Last edited by Josh128 on Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Josh128
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Josh128 »

vol.2 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:24 pm
bobrocks95 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:12 pmbut depending on how strong the dithering in a game is, may look nicer according to your taste.
Dithering looks fantastic when viewed on a CRT that's going to blur the dithered edges together. I first played the EGA version of Monkey Island, and I thought the dithering was beautiful. Trying to play it now in emulation on an higher resolution monitor doesn't look anything like the same though

Yes, my opinions are based solely on real N64 240p RGB output to a CRT. On MiSTer, to simulate this, I use an integer scaling with SNES "sharp" horizontal filter with 50% or lighter scanline vertical filter. I cant imagine playing non filtered or scanlined on a flat panel. PS1 is even worse!! :shock: :shock:
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

Josh128 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:37 pm So with Wonder Project J2, it has these dithering issues by default and you are trying to turn on the filters to patch them out? Does U64aap allow you to change anything for that game? IIRC, someone posted on Reddit a long while back that the dithering on the cars bothered them, and they were able to patch the rom to turn on the dithering filter and it worked for them. If you havent yet tried it, maybe it would work for this one?
It uses the "noise" style dithering seen here: https://mattpierce.info/n64-dither

The de-dither filter appears to be on by default for this game, it looks even worse with it off. No emulator options in Mupen or Ares have been able to remove it- I've seen video from one MiSTer user that seemingly showed it disappearing with a setting, but then another much more thorough video from someone in the MiSTer discord kindly stepping through all the options for me showed that nothing cleared it up. Tried various U64aap options and nothing got rid of it.

It looks hideous and I'm debating between putting up a $100 bounty to patch it out or trying to learn how to do it myself. Again according to the MiSTer N64 core dev himself, the game's draw calls themselves are asking for this noise dither and would need to be patched.
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Josh128 »

Maybe a silly question, but can adjusting the horizontal sampling on the RT5X perform the same 640 to 320 deblur that is being done with the Ultra HDMI? Certainly seems like it should be able to??
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