Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

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meneerbeer
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by meneerbeer »

borti4938 wrote:
viletim wrote:I spent some time playing with borti4938's new software the other day and the result was no good. It didn't improve the video, it made it more blurry, not less. I was using the static 'you forgot to plug in your controller' screen from Mario Tennis as a test. I would like to investigate this further, but it will have to wait for another day.
OK, after some testing I might have a clue why Mario Tennis looks blurry with the feature enabled: It seems like to me that Mario Tennis uses the full horizontal resolution while being in progressive mode.
The question is how to detect/estimate such a game!?!?
Guspaz wrote:That raises two questions:

1) How does UltraHDMI detect that scenario?
2) Does it actually need to be detected, as in, could a physical on/off switch be sufficient?
According to some of Marshallh's posts, UltraHDMI has some heuristics that check if horizontal blurring is happening. I think he also hinted that his method does not guarantee to always detect the blurring correctly.

My best guess is that he checks if every odd pixel is close to the average of the two even pixels around it. Perhaps he checks if this is the case for all odd pixels in the frame/multiple frames, before he decides if deblur can be activated.

I am not sure how beefy the CPLD is on N64RGB to support something like this (if my described method even works). I have never done anything serious with a CPLD. If you implement something like this, you would also need an always on option on the switch, as your heuristics may fail to detect a blurred image.
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Guspaz
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Guspaz »

It sounds like Tim's plan for a three-way switch (auto/on/off) is more than sufficient to handle edge cases.
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andykara2003
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by andykara2003 »

atheistgod1999 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:There's a difference, but it's not obvious if it's actually better rather than just different. MLiG covered it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpy1M6v ... u.be&t=449
It's probably more noticeable on a CRT, though. Looking at that as well as other videos, it looks like the Framemeister somehow detects pixel width and averages out the video information received over a given amount of time to map to a virtual pixel on the screen, if anyone can follow me.
The RGB output from the funtastics is exactly the same as the other models - the funtastics are a later revision (revision 8 mostly) that need Tim's mod that bypasses the DAC & installs a new one. The output looks the same as a standard THS7314 mod so all RGB mods look the same across all consoles. The issue of better video output using funtastics is based around composite & s-video, which that video is referring to.
Ikaruga11
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Ikaruga11 »

What would look better on a BVM?

The RGB mod with De-Blur (no Digital to analog conversion done)
or the Ultra HDMI (Digital-to-analog conversion, but lossless format)
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

GeneraLight wrote:What would look better on a BVM?

The RGB mod with De-Blur (no Digital to analog conversion done)
or the Ultra HDMI (Digital-to-analog conversion, but lossless format)
They should look exactly the same, the N64RGB is still doing a digital-to-analog conversion to produce the RGB video signal...

The N64RGB is certainly a hell of a lot cheaper and likely easier to install with the new flex cable.
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RGB32E
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by RGB32E »

GeneraLight wrote:What would look better on a BVM?

The RGB mod with De-Blur (no Digital to analog conversion done)
or the Ultra HDMI (Digital-to-analog conversion, but lossless format)
Given that the UltraHDMI doesn't output anything lower than 480p, it's not really an option unless your BVM supports 480p, or chain multiple devices. While you could chain HDMI to RGB converter to an Extron Emotia, you'd also have to switch between 240p/480i manually. So, Tim's v1.2 N64RGB kit would be your best choice for the BVM.
Ikaruga11
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Ikaruga11 »

RGB32E wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:What would look better on a BVM?

The RGB mod with De-Blur (no Digital to analog conversion done)
or the Ultra HDMI (Digital-to-analog conversion, but lossless format)
Given that the UltraHDMI doesn't output anything lower than 480p, it's not really an option unless your BMV supports 480p, or chain multiple devices. While you could chain HDMI to RGB converter to an Extron Emotia, you'd also have to switch between 240p/480i manually. So, Tim's v1.2 N64RGB kit would be your best choice for the BVM.
You mean the N64 will output native 480p with the Ultra HDMI? If its upscaled, wouldn't that be a slight loss in image quality due to being upscaled? How does RGB vs Ultra HDMI fare in input lag?
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

GeneraLight wrote:You mean the N64 will output native 480p with the Ultra HDMI? If its upscaled, wouldn't that be a slight loss in image quality due to being upscaled? How does RGB vs Ultra HDMI fare in input lag?
It's upscaled with likely a perfect 2x integer scale. So no loss in quality.

Analog RGB will have no lag, Ultra HDMI website states this on lag:
You can turn off all the processing for a zero-delay signal with less than 100 nanoseconds of lag. Otherwise, latency averages 1 frame (16ms).
Again though, none of this really matters unless you have a multisync BVM.

EDIT: Tim, is there currently software configured to make use of the de-blur the way you have it wired on the board? I believe you said the 1.2 boards are shipping with the same firmware the 1.1 boards had.
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labbeast
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by labbeast »

borti4938 wrote:Sure. But you have to have an Altera USB Blaster (or at least a clone). Tim offers solder pads for the JTAG interface.
Hey Borti,

Can you make a tutorial on how to flash the Altera chip with an usb blaster for noobs?
I would love to do it, but this is not in my skill set (yet).

Thanks,
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noonan2678
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by noonan2678 »

I read the first and last pages of posts. Unless I missed something, I'd be on the list for one of these as well. I have an RGB N64 and almost always play on my PVM, so not that interested in the HDMI project.

Please PM me if you're wiling to make one! I'd order right away.

Thanks!
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andykara2003
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by andykara2003 »

bobrocks95 wrote:EDIT: Tim, is there currently software configured to make use of the de-blur the way you have it wired on the board? I believe you said the 1.2 boards are shipping with the same firmware the 1.1 boards had.
I was under the impression that Tim's going to have a closer look at what's going on with the software and that, hopefully, a revised version will come from that which would eventually be released already installed on his boards:
viletim wrote:I recently ordered a logic analyser which I can use to look at the digital video data. Once it arrives (I suppose late next week) I'll be able to see the full story....
Hope I have this right!
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

andykara2003 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:EDIT: Tim, is there currently software configured to make use of the de-blur the way you have it wired on the board? I believe you said the 1.2 boards are shipping with the same firmware the 1.1 boards had.
I was under the impression that Tim's going to have a closer look at what's going on with the software and that, hopefully, a revised version will come from that which would eventually be released already installed on his boards:
viletim wrote:I recently ordered a logic analyser which I can use to look at the digital video data. Once it arrives (I suppose late next week) I'll be able to see the full story....
Hope I have this right!
I think I forgot that Tim had ordered a logic analyzer. Basically I'm just antsy and being impatient so don't mind me!
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borti4938

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by borti4938 »

labbeast wrote:
borti4938 wrote:Sure. But you have to have an Altera USB Blaster (or at least a clone). Tim offers solder pads for the JTAG interface.
Hey Borti,

Can you make a tutorial on how to flash the Altera chip with an usb blaster for noobs?
I would love to do it, but this is not in my skill set (yet).

Thanks,
At the moment I'm working on the auto detection whether the N64 uses horizontal blur or not in 240p mode. Once it is done I will probably write something about how to update...

BR
Last edited by borti4938 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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andykara2003
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by andykara2003 »

Nice one - appreciate your work :)
mvsfan
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by mvsfan »

updating is really not that difficult. the hardest part is building your cable and even that doesnt take long.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

Any testing updates from Tim or Borti?
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borti4938

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by borti4938 »

Still WIP :/
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

That's fine! I'm still curious if Tim ever got it working with any game and would thus be willing to offer software that had it as the new hardware now supports. Full heuristics are of course nice, but baby steps :wink:
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tacoguy64
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by tacoguy64 »

Still rocking out N64 on s-video until this thing becomes available.
jay
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by jay »

Very interested in seeing this come to fruition.
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holaplaneta
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by holaplaneta »

Here is some cheering to support this project till fruition. Let´s hope it can happen.

:wink:
ajdesmarais
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by ajdesmarais »

So... is this actually available yet? There is no indication that the version in the store is this new "switchable", de-blurring model...
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andykara2003
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by andykara2003 »

It's a work in progress. Borti and Tim are working on it..
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

A status update would be appreciated though, if there is anything to share :mrgreen:
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Blaasvis
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Blaasvis »

Well i made something for the deblur firmware, since i wanted to be able to make it switchless.
I have put the code for it on my github page.
It is my first venture into PIC programming. So if anyone has some remarks about it just let me know.

https://github.com/Blaasvis/N64-Switchless-deblur

I have uploaded a video of it on youtube. It switches every few seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjxiB_o1JuE
borti4938

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by borti4938 »

bobrocks95 wrote:A status update would be appreciated though, if there is anything to share :mrgreen:
Nothing to share - I haven't had time during the last one or two weeks to look further into it.... Still, I'm close to just throwing it away. Maybe this gives me a more clear view onto it to start new. However, maybe it makes more sense to implement some kind of controller input sniffing to (de-)activate the de-blur with a certain key combination in 240p/288p.
Blaasvis wrote:Well i made something for the deblur firmware, since i wanted to be able to make it switchless.
I have put the code for it on my github page.
It is my first venture into PIC programming. So if anyone has some remarks about it just let me know.

https://github.com/Blaasvis/N64-Switchless-deblur

I have uploaded a video of it on youtube. It switches every few seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjxiB_o1JuE
Nice project to start with. But your code does exactly the same as my overclocking code in some part: https://github.com/borti4938/Switchless ... /Overclock
One could use that one for the switching too ;)
leonk
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by leonk »

Blaasvis wrote:Well i made something for the deblur firmware, since i wanted to be able to make it switchless.
I have put the code for it on my github page.
It is my first venture into PIC programming. So if anyone has some remarks about it just let me know.

https://github.com/Blaasvis/N64-Switchless-deblur

I have uploaded a video of it on youtube. It switches every few seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjxiB_o1JuE
When Mario is sleeping, I can see the difference in the hat (deinterlace vs jaggy edges) but apart from that, not sure if it's YouTube squashing the video or what, it's hard to tell the difference. And when you run around, I can't tell at all.

Is the blur really that bad? Can people really notice it sitting 8-10' away from a TV with lots of motion?? Or are we pixel peeping at this point? (Maybe my eyes are going bad with age) :)
cfx
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by cfx »

Who sits 8-10' away? I sit 2-3' from a 17" CRT and even if I was playing on a big flatscreen I'd never sit that far away.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

I don't even need switchless heuristics, I'd be fine with Tim just adding firmware that will enable (in 240p) or disable the de-blur...

As a note reviewers of the UltraHDMI have I think pretty much all said the VI de-blur makes a notable difference.
EDIT: Bucko has a good comparison to show the de-blur on his website: https://www.videogameperfection.com/201 ... 4-gallery/
Last edited by bobrocks95 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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andykara2003
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by andykara2003 »

Same - for me, just the ability to switch the effect on or off with a physical switch would be amazing.
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