PS2 @ 240p

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Guspaz
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by Guspaz »

None of the currently available models of Extron RGB (there are four of them) have a vertical shift feature.

Of the 39 retired models, only 13 of them definitely have vertical shift (sometimes called "V. SHIFT" and sometimes called "V. CENTER"), and three of them have a digital menu interface that may or may not support it.

The models that support it are: 118 PLUS, 120p, 124, 130xi, 134xi, 138xi, 201 Rxi, 202 Rxi, 202 Rxi VTG, 202xi, 203 Rxi, 203 Rxi EDID, 203 Rxi VTG.

The models that might are the 300, 302, and 304.
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Fudoh
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by Fudoh »

Let me 100% clear: you need a an Extron RGB with vertical shift control. That's the only way I've been able to get clear scanlines with my Extron, by shifting a few lines up or down (usually up). Thankfully, there are plenty models with this feature.
I can't confirm this. Why would you need the vertical shift function to do the 480i to 240p conversion trick? I'm not saying that you're wrong - - if you need the function on your setup, it might be related to the monitor used for that. I have a couple of simple interfaces (190 or 192) which I've used for this on my BVM and there was no need to adjust the vertical offset.

One of the most popular interfaces, which quite a few people here on the board have used to do the 480i to 240p thing on their cabs (or regular CRTs), is the 580xi and it does not have a vertical shift function either.

The only good use for the vertical shift function I found was the alignment control when feeding a 480p signal into an Emotia unit.
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FinalBaton
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by FinalBaton »

Fudoh, what is the switch configuration you use on the 192 for the 240p trick?
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Fudoh
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by Fudoh »

Fudoh, what is the switch configuration you use on the 192 for the 240p trick?
can't be generalized. The DDSP switch is used to switch between 480i and 240p output when a 480i signal is present on the input. Enabling DDSP also disables all other controls. So, on an interface with vertical shift controls, these would be disabled anyway, once DDSP is enabled.

BUT: there's a set of internal dips or jumpers which can control sync polarity and by altering these you can reverse the behaviour of the DDSP switch, so the interface will output 240p when DDSP is DISABLED, hence leaving the other controls active. That's not the standard config though.
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BazookaBen
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by BazookaBen »

Fudoh wrote:
Let me 100% clear: you need a an Extron RGB with vertical shift control. That's the only way I've been able to get clear scanlines with my Extron, by shifting a few lines up or down (usually up). Thankfully, there are plenty models with this feature.
I can't confirm this. Why would you need the vertical shift function to do the 480i to 240p conversion trick?
In my case, running an Extron RGB to my PVM 20M2MDU, I would get barely-detectable scanlines at the default V-position. Adjusting upward a few steps, I would get much more defined scanlines, it would look very close to 240p from an old-school console. It looks like others have lucked out and didn't need V-shift, but it seems that azmun will need it. I certainly did.

And ADSP is the mode that gives us the faux 240p, right? That's what you need to get V and H shift controls to work.
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azmun
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by azmun »

Fudoh wrote:I can't confirm this. Why would you need the vertical shift function to do the 480i to 240p conversion trick? I'm not saying that you're wrong - - if you need the function on your setup, it might be related to the monitor used for that. I have a couple of simple interfaces (190 or 192) which I've used for this on my BVM and there was no need to adjust the vertical offset.
We tend to associate scanlines with 240p (and low-res) but we know they don't necessarily have to go together. There is an improvement in my games, I just can't articulate it yet. For one thing the colors stand out more. If I was more adept with a camera I could compare shots and post em here. Already, I observe some games benefit much more than others.

[Edit: I can confirm what Fudoh is saying.] Regarding horizontal shift control, I read in the manual this functionality may not work when DDSP is on:

DDSP™ - Digital Display Sync Processing– Allows the sync signal to pass through without altering sync pulse or width. Disables other sync processing features such as horizontal and vertical centering.

Guess it's still a bit curious how or why others have setups that manifest scanlines.
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FinalBaton
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by FinalBaton »

azmun wrote:
Fudoh wrote:I can't confirm this. Why would you need the vertical shift function to do the 480i to 240p conversion trick? I'm not saying that you're wrong - - if you need the function on your setup, it might be related to the monitor used for that. I have a couple of simple interfaces (190 or 192) which I've used for this on my BVM and there was no need to adjust the vertical offset.
We tend to associate scanlines with 240p (and low-res) but we know they don't necessarily have to go together. There is an improvement in my games, I just can't articulate it yet. For one thing the colors stand out more. If I was more adept with a camera I could compare shots and post em here. Already, I observe some games benefit much more than others.

[Edit: I can confirm what Fudoh is saying.] Regarding horizontal shift control, I read in the manual this functionality may not work when DDSP is on:

DDSP™ - Digital Display Sync Processing– Allows the sync signal to pass through without altering sync pulse or width. Disables other sync processing features such as horizontal and vertical centering.

Guess it's still a bit curious how or why others have setups that manifest scanlines.
Well if the Extron noticeably reduces flicker and combing artifacts, and gives a tighter, less soft picture, then that's what really counts. it means that it effectively transformed the video signal to 240p.

Also, something else to consider : maybe your consumer CRT doesn't have a lot of TV lines, and it that case, it will never display visible scanlines.
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azmun
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by azmun »

FinalBaton wrote:Well if the Extron noticeably reduces flicker and combing artifacts, and gives a tighter, less soft picture, then that's what really counts. it means that it effectively transformed the video signal to 240p.

Also, something else to consider : maybe your consumer CRT doesn't have a lot of TV lines, and it that case, it will never display visible scanlines.
Yeah, I believe that. It's tighter and sharper sans the scanlines. Something about my Sony XBR, it is very cable of displaying scanlines (I mentioned Dreamcast Street Fighter 3s, Saturn ports of Capcom fighters and newer PS2 Sega Ages collections with 240p modes). Even most games from my 16-bit consoles show em nicely. There are exceptions, for example when running some Famicom games I don't notice em as much and have learned to live without em just fine. :)
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by cfx »

FinalBaton wrote:Also, something else to consider : maybe your consumer CRT doesn't have a lot of TV lines, and it that case, it will never display visible scanlines.
Why would that be the case? TV lines is a measure of horizontal resolving power, not vertical.
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FinalBaton
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by FinalBaton »

cfx wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:Also, something else to consider : maybe your consumer CRT doesn't have a lot of TV lines, and it that case, it will never display visible scanlines.
Why would that be the case? TV lines is a measure of horizontal resolving power, not vertical.
Let's compare 2 cases of 480i CRTs displaying a 240p console :

On a TV with a very low count of TV lines, the gap between adjacent cells of a same scan line, will be almost just as big as the height of the blank lines (AKA the gap between scan lines themselves). This will give more of a grill appearance to the image.

But with a TV with a high count of TV lines, the cells forming a scanline will be packed really close together. We pretty much won't be able to see any gap between these cells, they will kinda be fusioned together to form a solid scan line. That will make for very full, clear-cut scanlines, wich in turn will make the blank lines appear very well defined.
Last edited by FinalBaton on Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FinalBaton
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by FinalBaton »

azmun wrote: Something about my Sony XBR, it is very cable of displaying scanlines (I mentioned Dreamcast Street Fighter 3s, Saturn ports of Capcom fighters and newer PS2 Sega Ages collections with 240p modes).
*slaps forhead*

I totally forgot you had already mentionned that. D'oh!
Nevermind what I said then :)

Well, this is quite the mystery. I don't know why you don't see prominent scanlines with your Extron. As you saw in my pics; I clearly get them with mine.

I wish I could send you my 580xi for free, so that you could test it on your XBR... XD
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azmun
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by azmun »

Haha, thanks and no worries. My setup didn't break the bank and I'll keep in mind other Extron devices listed here for future reference, including your 580xi.

Hope I'm not coming off as one obsessed with scanlines and just think some games would benefit greatly from them instead of the alternative--blurry, filtered graphics peppered with artifacts or pixelated.
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azmun
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by azmun »

This afternoon I tested my Extron RGB 192V on my Saturn. Since games are already running in low res (240p), I wondered what the device would do or how it'd perform while DDSP dip switch is set to on. Like my previous observations on PS2, it seems the graphics are somewhat enhanced.

Can anyone explain what this feature really does? If in fact it converts interlaced signal to progressive scan (480i to 240p) then what does this imply for games already running in 240p?

Lastly, it'd be interesting for me to test out in the future how this will handle inputs coming in as 480p (via component cables or VGA connectors).
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BazookaBen
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by BazookaBen »

You say you have a Sony XBR? What is the exact model? I thought XBR's were all Hi-Def.
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azmun
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by azmun »

The two XBR sets we got were manufactured and acquired in the mid 90s.
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BazookaBen
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by BazookaBen »

Oh, ok, so that name goes back farther than I thought.
azmun wrote: Can anyone explain what this feature really does? If in fact it converts interlaced signal to progressive scan (480i to 240p) then what does this imply for games already running in 240p?

Lastly, it'd be interesting for me to test out in the future how this will handle inputs coming in as 480p (via component cables or VGA connectors).
240p looks exactly the same with or without the extron, at least in my experience. Same with 480p. It's only interlaced signals that really look different.
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by Unseen »

azmun wrote:Can anyone explain what this feature really does?
Extron's ADSP, the feature that is disabled by setting the DDSP ("Disable Digital Sync Processing") switch to on, replaces the original H+V-Sync signals with regenerated versions that "smooth out" small variations and glitches in their timing. Image centering controls are implemented by outputting the new sync signals slightly earlier or later than the original ones, so the position of the (unprocessed) RGB signals moves relative to the syncs. The reason why this feature can "convert" 480i to 240p is because the part of the sync signal that would tell the display if the next field is a top or bottom field looks like a glitch to the sync regeneration circuit and is removed.

(alternative succinct technical description: PLLs lock onto the original syncs to generate new ones, centering is implemented by changing the phase of the new syncs and the field identification on the output is missing because the PLL doesn't track fast enough to keep the serration pulses intact)
kludd70
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by kludd70 »

Moving this discussion here so I don't derail the game list topic too much.

So I attempted this trick with an Extron RGB 120p, running an S-video signal through the recommended adapters, and it seems to work but the result is too flickery/jittery no matter how much I fiddle around with it. Like any bright colors will jitter not just slightly but 1 or 2 whole lines of resolution, seems to get worse near the bottom of the screen. A shame because aside from that it looks fantastic.

Do you think my TV is just not up to the task or is it this particular Extron model? Not sure what to try next.

Also even regardless of the jitter the lines look out of order in places, like this:

240p:
http://i.imgur.com/sQHrdbN.jpg

480i for comparison:
http://i.imgur.com/qSWspk5.jpg

EDIT:
I tried it on my other TV and it looks slightly better, maybe because that TV is a bit less sharp, but it still has the same issues.
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BazookaBen
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by BazookaBen »

Well that menu looks like it isn't low-res anyway, like it is supposed to be rendered at 480 lines. So trying to convert it to 240p isn't going to look good. What game are you trying to show us?
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by kludd70 »

That's from Capcom Classics 2 Eco Fighters, I don't know if it's a game that uses interpolation but it doesn't seem to be pixel perfect. I know the menu part isn't low res but it's just an example of how glitchy and jumbled it looks sometimes. Converting native 480i stuff to 240p is mainly what I'm attempting to do here anyways but I'll try to find a basic linedoubled 240 game to test if I have one.
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by austin532 »

A lot of compilation games from that era were not pixel perfect so that may be some of the cause.
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... start=9600
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BazookaBen
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by BazookaBen »

yeah, capcom classics collection is all fucked up. Impossible to get it to display at 1:1 or 1:2 pixel ratio. At least I was never able to.
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by FinalBaton »

Street Fighter Alpha Anthology seems to align scanlines well with pixel rows. At least to my eyes. Can't say if it has the same number of pixels on the horizontal axis though. I think it looks great, FWIW
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BazookaBen
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by BazookaBen »

Taito Legends 2 actually works really well with an Extron.
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by FinalBaton »

^^^^^^
Nice! Ben, that's good to know!
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by SmokeMonster »

I have a DVS-304 in storage and didn't realize that it could be used to send 240p PS2 to my PVM. The 304 definitely has horizontal and vertical shift control available in the menu, but the lowest output resolution in the menu is 480i. I also have a DVS-204, which also has horizontal and vertical control, but I remember 480i being the lowest resolution that it supported as well. How can I get either of these to output 240p?
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by orange808 »

SmokeMonster wrote:I have a DVS-304 in storage and didn't realize that it could be used to send 240p PS2 to my PVM. The 304 definitely has horizontal and vertical shift control available in the menu, but the lowest output resolution in the menu is 480i. I also have a DVS-204, which also has horizontal and vertical control, but I remember 480i being the lowest resolution that it supported as well. How can I get either of these to output 240p?
You can't.
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SmokeMonster
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by SmokeMonster »

I also have a Crosspoint Ultra 1212HVA with ADSP. Could that be used to achieve the same pseudo deinterlacing, or does that trick only work in conjunction with the Vertical Shift?
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FinalBaton
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by FinalBaton »

Vertical shift is not needed for the pseudo 240p trick to work. My extron interface does not have vertical shift and the "trick" works just fine.

As for your Extron.. I couldn't say. Try it!
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Re: PS2 @ 240p

Post by SmokeMonster »

Excellent, I'll give it a shot when I'm back home. I'm 6,000 miles from my hardware for a while though.

One last question. On the older Extron units with DB9 inputs, is a simple HD15 Male to DB9 Female Adapter (CGA/EGA to VGA) the same as the Extron branded VGA breakout cables?
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