Sega Dreamcast + Toro Box + Sony PVM-20L5

[Ed Oscuro]

Sony Trinitron Multiscan CPD-G500 21'' CRT Monitor, which has VGA + RGBS BNC inputs.

I don't know if this helps, but this monitor almost certainly has no RGBs input capability, but instead would have 5 BNC connectors for RGBHV. It is basically an alternative way to plug in VGA, with greater strength and reliability, at the cost of space. I think that whatever solution you go for will need to advertise RGBHV or VGA output, not RGBs as the monitor probably doesn't support that even at 31KHz.

[Guspaz]

The manual for the monitor lists, in the external sync section:

Separate/Composite 1-5Vp-p, polarity-free TTL
Sync on green 0.3V p-p±10%, negative

So it definitely does support RGBs and RGsB.

[aallgod]

Hey Blair,

I guess first before I can test other stuff I will need to get some BNC adapters for the end of my component cable cords so they can plug into the PVM (all of my PVM-compatible cables are currently integrated BNC) -- so it may be a few days before I can report back on results regarding testing other units in component.

So I went ahead and tested my PS3 on the PVM -- hooked up via official Sony component cables fitted with bnc adaptors on the end. It was hooked up via RGsB...


I set my PS3 to output through component in 480p and made sure my PVM was set to receive signal properly.


Here is what I got:



As you can see in the pictures above, there is still evidence of some waviness in the picture... the letters are not entirely straight, and the clock in the upper right hand corner is certainly not a perfectly displayed circle.




Here is what Shadow of the Colossus looks like on the PS3 in component (set to progressive scan)... screen looks 95+% good, but you can definitely see some faint waves on the edges of the screen. The picture smooths out and looks perfect by about halfway down the screen. For kicks and giggles, I tried the system out in 720p and 1080i... not really my thing since the TV has to go in 16:9 mode, but no such problems existed with the picture in this way. So it seems the only time I am getting any wavy line issues on this television is when I do a 480p signal. 240p/480i is perfectly fine, as well as the higher resolutions.

So at this point after testing a different 480p source other than the Dreamcast, I am beginning to think the problem lies internally with my PVM. The connection was direct from the 480p source (using official cables), I used the RGB outputs on the back of the unit (sync on green for PS3), and the problem still persists, albeit much more minimally than with the Dreamcast. In reality, I am fairly satisfied with the PS3 output on the television since the waves are so minimal... but the Dreamcast output is something I really want to get straightened out.

Now, about the progress with the Dreamcast setup...

I went ahead and emailed the Beharbros website about my problem -- Yossi mentioned that my best bet is to try a VGA to RGBs BNC cable for my setup... that will avoid having to feed my signal through an Extron and any extra cables, which should theoretically preserve the Toro's original signal strength. Since I already ordered a new, more quality VGA cable to use in my current setup, I will try that first before investing in one of these cables.

This VGA cable that I mentioned finally arrived, and did not alter the output at all when I hooked everything up -- same wavy lines. I now went ahead and ordered a VGA to RGBs cable so I can cut out the Extron completely, to see if a direct connection to the PVM from the Toro can improve an apparently weakened sync signal. This is somewhat of a last ditch effort for me... I know the Toro isn't the problem, since it outputs 31khz vga no problem (without the need of an Extron) on both my LED computer monitor and LCD flat-screen television that has a VGA port. That's about the last thing I think I can do for my situation, outside of getting the PVM professionally worked on to see if there is something internal screwing up.

Any suggestions, anyone?

[Raen]

Sony Trinitron Multiscan CPD-G500 21'' CRT Monitor, which has VGA + RGBS BNC inputs.

I don't know if this helps, but this monitor almost certainly has no RGBs input capability, but instead would have 5 BNC connectors for RGBHV. It is basically an alternative way to plug in VGA, with greater strength and reliability, at the cost of space. I think that whatever solution you go for will need to advertise RGBHV or VGA output, not RGBs as the monitor probably doesn't support that even at 31KHz.

The manual for the monitor lists, in the external sync section:

Separate/Composite 1-5Vp-p, polarity-free TTL
Sync on green 0.3V p-p±10%, negative

So it definitely does support RGBs and RGsB.

It has 5 BNC connectors for RGBHV, sure, but it does support RGBS (the sync plug has to be plugged in on the H connector). The only "problem" is that it doesn't support 15 kHz, no matter what.

[aallgod]

Well, my saga continues... as mentioned in my last post a few days ago, I ordered a VGA to RGBs cable for the Dreamcast. This would allow me to avoid using an Extron and directly hooking the Toro up to my PVM. DC --> Toro --> VGA to BNC cable --> PVM

Upon receiving the cable and trying that out, I get the same results as before with the wavy lines. I am at a loss now, and most likely have to get my PVM looked at by someone. This sucks.

[aallgod]

I still have made no headway on this since my last post. I think I have pretty much troubleshot everything in the setups, but to no avail. Before I go and call up an expert to take apart my pvm and look at it, does anyone know which components internally for the PVM may be causing my issue? I figure I should be able to to supply as much input as I can to the repair person.

[Xenogias]

someone else should chime in too but if you're going to have someone do any kind of paid work on a CRT you should have them replace any capacitors with high quality new ones, especially on the power board. In regards to your issue, it does seem to indicate an issue with the PVM itself. Have you investigated calibration/service menu settings? Do you know how many hours are on the unit?

[aallgod]

someone else should chime in too but if you're going to have someone do any kind of paid work on a CRT you should have them replace any capacitors with high quality new ones, especially on the power board. In regards to your issue, it does seem to indicate an issue with the PVM itself. Have you investigated calibration/service menu settings? Do you know how many hours are on the unit?

Hi Xenogias, thanks for the reply!

I have not really looked too much into the calibration type menus, as I really don't feel that I am well versed in the area. I can give it a look either way.

Regarding hours on the unit, I know the unit is from 2004. I got it from a production company, and the man said it was left on quite a bit. The television does not have an hour counter that is accessible through menus though, so I am not entirely certain about its exact usage. Aside from this goofy problem with the 480p, everything else has worked fine and well in other resolutions and there are no real blemishes in the picture that are detectable by merely glancing at it.

I am going to start calling around town in a week or so in regard to PVM repair -- I have had no time in recent weeks as I have been finishing up graduate school coursework. I will keep that in mind about replacement capacitors, thanks!

[nyder]

Not sure if this is of any use, but I couldn't get my Hanzo to sync on my 20l5. My old Blaze VGA adapter works perfectly however.

Nyd

[aallgod]

Not sure if this is of any use, but I couldn't get my Hanzo to sync on my 20l5. My old Blaze VGA adapter works perfectly however.

Nyd

Hi Nyd,

Was it doing similar things that my Toro has been doing in 480p? (See pics on 1st page of thread). Or would it just not sync at all and display no picture?

[nyder]

Not sure if this is of any use, but I couldn't get my Hanzo to sync on my 20l5. My old Blaze VGA adapter works perfectly however.

Nyd

Hi Nyd,

Was it doing similar things that my Toro has been doing in 480p? (See pics on 1st page of thread). Or would it just not sync at all and display no picture?

Same kinda stuff, horrible wiggly picture, I haven't tried hooking it up since the day I got the Hanzo. Been a year +. I was told to just get a Extron like you or a Toro. I thought it was bogus a bog standard VGA box could display a picture to my 20l5 but this new super VGA box couldn't. I only kept it as I got the extra scanline cable for use with other consoles.

If I have time I will rehook up.,

BTW I was using a VGA to BNC cable and combining the sync with a T connector.

I know one thing, 20l5's are picky about sync, I have a 1354Q that syncs up to any console with any ole RGB scart. But my 20l5 freaks out if I use a PAL Sega Saturn official RGB Scart with as a opposed as one wired up for jap. My 1354Q syncs with both on any of my 4 saturns.
Nyd

[aallgod]

Thanks for the information, Nyder. Every other system I have tested on the 20L5 that outputs in 240p/480i has given me no problems through SCART (including the Dreamcast in 480i mode). But the PVM has simply refused to give a 100% clear picture for any 480p source, which is a shame since I know stuff is supposed to look fabulous in 480p on this unit. I thought the Toro would be great, but the 20L5 doesn't like it apparently. This Toro works fine on any other monitor I have tried it on though, so I know it is the PVM with the problem. All I wanted was to see beautiful Skies of Arcadia in 480p on my PVM... or any game in 480p, for that matter. I will be getting a framemeister and hooking things up to a LCD Screen eventually anyhow, so I will still get to play DC in 480p on that monitor at the very least. Everything else that I want to work on the PVM is fine, so I may just have to settle. I can only imagine it being expensive for someone to crack open my PVM and tweak/replace parts.

[nyder]

Thanks for the information, Nyder. Every other system I have tested on the 20L5 that outputs in 240p/480i has given me no problems through SCART (including the Dreamcast in 480i mode). But the PVM has simply refused to give a 100% clear picture for any 480p source, which is a shame since I know stuff is supposed to look fabulous in 480p on this unit. I thought the Toro would be great, but the 20L5 doesn't like it apparently. This Toro works fine on any other monitor I have tried it on though, so I know it is the PVM with the problem. All I wanted was to see beautiful Skies of Arcadia in 480p on my PVM... or any game in 480p, for that matter. I will be getting a framemeister and hooking things up to a LCD Screen eventually anyhow, so I will still get to play DC in 480p on that monitor at the very least. Everything else that I want to work on the PVM is fine, so I may just have to settle. I can only imagine it being expensive for someone to crack open my PVM and tweak/replace parts.

I have no issues inputting 480p from other sources, DC, Original XBOX< pS2 etc. into my PVM. What I recommend would be to track down a BKM-129x input board. This gives you another set of RGB/Component inputs. I have one and use it for RGB and the on board for Component so I don't have to fuss about.

This is a very useful card to have for any 20l5 owner, and if your onboard inputs are having issues with 480p, but works fine for RGB, this would be a good solution.

Nyd

[aallgod]

That's a really good idea -- one that I hadn't considered. I will have to see if I can hunt one down. If I find one and can test it I will let you know my results. Thanks again for the suggestion!

[nyder]

That's a really good idea -- one that I hadn't considered. I will have to see if I can hunt one down. If I find one and can test it I will let you know my results. Thanks again for the suggestion!

Look for one here on the forum, another member will probably hook you up with one cheaper than Ebay etc, thats how I got mine.

Also, if it doesn't solve your problem you won't be stuck with it as it is a high demand item, I ended up with 2 at one time and I flipped the extra in one day for twice what I paid.

Nyd

[aallgod]

That's a really good idea -- one that I hadn't considered. I will have to see if I can hunt one down. If I find one and can test it I will let you know my results. Thanks again for the suggestion!

Look for one here on the forum, another member will probably hook you up with one cheaper than Ebay etc, thats how I got mine.

Also, if it doesn't solve your problem you won't be stuck with it as it is a high demand item, I ended up with 2 at one time and I flipped the extra in one day for twice what I paid.

Nyd

I did send a PM to someone who may still have one -- fingers crossed. I will let you know when I get my hands on one and test it out -- You will have my eternal thanks if it solves my problem, as I have tried pretty much everything else by now.

[aallgod]

So I went ahead and got a BKM-129X and tried hooking up my DC through those means, both by way of SCART and VGA-through-the-Extron. Same results as before... same old squiggly lines. I am going to try every connection I can think of tonight and see what happens, but I think this may be a lost cause.

I guess the absolute only other thing I can think of is getting a different VGA adaptor and trying that out. I am convinced that the 20L5 is never going to accept any 480p signal that I feed through the Toro. Nyd, you had mentioned Blaze VGA Adaptor working for you. Does anyone know of a relatively inexpensive VGA box I could get for my DC? Or does anyone have one they are willing to sell to me for cheap? I have spent way too much money thus far on trying to fix this issue, so I don't look to break the bank any more than I already have.

[nyder]

So I went ahead and got a BKM-129X and tried hooking up my DC through those means, both by way of SCART and VGA-through-the-Extron. Same results as before... same old squiggly lines. I am going to try every connection I can think of tonight and see what happens, but I think this may be a lost cause.

I guess the absolute only other thing I can think of is getting a different VGA adaptor and trying that out. I am convinced that the 20L5 is never going to accept any 480p signal that I feed through the Toro. Nyd, you had mentioned Blaze VGA Adaptor working for you. Does anyone know of a relatively inexpensive VGA box I could get for my DC? Or does anyone have one they are willing to sell to me for cheap? I have spent way too much money thus far on trying to fix this issue, so I don't look to break the bank any more than I already have.

So you've tried PS2/original XBOX via BNC/RCA convertors and get no Component signal, are you combining the verticle and horozontle sync from your VGA-BNC breakout cable?

Yes, my Dreamcast works with a VGA to BNC cable combined with a Blaze VGA box. I've even used the S-video breakout on it to play titles in 240p.

Nyd

[aallgod]

So I went ahead and got a BKM-129X and tried hooking up my DC through those means, both by way of SCART and VGA-through-the-Extron. Same results as before... same old squiggly lines. I am going to try every connection I can think of tonight and see what happens, but I think this may be a lost cause.

I guess the absolute only other thing I can think of is getting a different VGA adaptor and trying that out. I am convinced that the 20L5 is never going to accept any 480p signal that I feed through the Toro. Nyd, you had mentioned Blaze VGA Adaptor working for you. Does anyone know of a relatively inexpensive VGA box I could get for my DC? Or does anyone have one they are willing to sell to me for cheap? I have spent way too much money thus far on trying to fix this issue, so I don't look to break the bank any more than I already have.

So you've tried PS2/original XBOX via BNC/RCA convertors and get no Component signal, are you combining the verticle and horozontle sync from your VGA-BNC breakout cable?

Yes, my Dreamcast works with a VGA to BNC cable combined with a Blaze VGA box. I've even used the S-video breakout on it to play titles in 240p.

Nyd

My particular cables are RGBs, not RGBHV... so it only comes with one singular external sync cable. These cables include a two-ended RGBs cable (connects Extron to PVM), a VGA-RGBs BNC breakout cable, and a female SCART-to-RGBs BNC breakout (I use a male-to-male SCART cable made for the Toro, so I can connect from the Toro to the BNC cable previously mentioned.). I swap the cables as needed to fit whatever setup I am attempting (be it with an Extron or not).

[nyder]

So I went ahead and got a BKM-129X and tried hooking up my DC through those means, both by way of SCART and VGA-through-the-Extron. Same results as before... same old squiggly lines. I am going to try every connection I can think of tonight and see what happens, but I think this may be a lost cause.

I guess the absolute only other thing I can think of is getting a different VGA adaptor and trying that out. I am convinced that the 20L5 is never going to accept any 480p signal that I feed through the Toro. Nyd, you had mentioned Blaze VGA Adaptor working for you. Does anyone know of a relatively inexpensive VGA box I could get for my DC? Or does anyone have one they are willing to sell to me for cheap? I have spent way too much money thus far on trying to fix this issue, so I don't look to break the bank any more than I already have.

So you've tried PS2/original XBOX via BNC/RCA convertors and get no Component signal, are you combining the verticle and horozontle sync from your VGA-BNC breakout cable?

Yes, my Dreamcast works with a VGA to BNC cable combined with a Blaze VGA box. I've even used the S-video breakout on it to play titles in 240p.

Nyd

My particular cables are RGBs, not RGBHV... so it only comes with one singular external sync cable. These cables include a two-ended RGBs cable (connects Extron to PVM), a VGA-RGBs BNC breakout cable, and a female SCART-to-RGBs BNC breakout (I use a male-to-male SCART cable made for the Toro, so I can connect from the Toro to the BNC cable previously mentioned.). I swap the cables as needed to fit whatever setup I am attempting (be it with an Extron or not).

And justing hooking up a PS2 with component cables via the BNC connector doesn't get you a signal 480p on progressive scan titles?

Just trying to find out if the L5 doesn't like the VGA breakout or has some sorta issue witth 480p/component etc.

[Thamiel]

My 20l5 has no issues with 480p from a Wii, Pc or a ps2. I'd definitely suspect the Toro.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

[nyder]

My 20l5 has no issues with 480p from a Wii, Pc or a ps2. I'd definitely suspect the Toro.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

Yeah, my 20l5 runs 480P like a champ, from those same systems and from the Dreamcast with my blaze VGA adapter. It goes nuts with the Hanzo DC box.

Nyd

[aallgod]

Sorry for a late response -- I will be running tests and stuff in a little while here tonight after I get some work done. A quick question -- I see people advertising DC VGA cords where it goes from the av plug and breaks out into a male VGA plug and two stereo cables. If I was to plug one of those into an Extron and not use the Toro at all, could this potentially work? Or is an adapter absolutely necessary to get picture?

[nyder]

Sorry for a late response -- I will be running tests and stuff in a little while here tonight after I get some work done. A quick question -- I see people advertising DC VGA cords where it goes from the av plug and breaks out into a male VGA plug and two stereo cables. If I was to plug one of those into an Extron and not use the Toro at all, could this potentially work? Or is an adapter absolutely necessary to get picture?

You may be trying to diagnose this at to high a level, you need to verify that your L5 can display a 480P image from a PS2 or original Xbox,wii, etc via component leads.

Without confirming that we can't determine if this is an issue with your display or the Toro.

[aallgod]

I don't currently have a PS2, but I do have a PS3. It is currently hooked up via component leads and is running in 480p mode. Shadow of the Colossus is currently running in progressive scan mode.

Here it is, connected by official sony component cables (sync on green)


Here is a pulled out shot of the screen... at first glance it doesn't look too bad.


But as you get a closer look, the wavy lines still persist. It is worse on the top edges of the screen than on the bottom, but regardless they are there.


If you scroll up earlier on page 2 of this thread, similar photos were taken, but that was using the onboard RGB, not the BKM-129X. The photos look virtually identical.

[nyder]

Yeah this is not normal behavior at all, there must be a component in the monitor that is failing etc. I would try to get a professional to diagnose this, I would hold off doing cap kit stuff until someone who is more knowledgeable can advise you.

Nyd

[aallgod]

Yeah this is not normal behavior at all, there must be a component in the monitor that is failing etc. I would try to get a professional to diagnose this, I would hold off doing cap kit stuff until someone who is more knowledgeable can advise you.

Nyd

Yeah, I figured such. I will eventually call up a professional to look at it. Money is tight at the moment, and I am unsure as to how much it would cost to analyze and fix. What a silly problem -- everything else works fine on the damn thing, except for 480p anything apparently.

Thanks for all of your help thus far! I really appreciate it, as I am a novice with this sort of stuff.

[nyder]

Yeah this is not normal behavior at all, there must be a component in the monitor that is failing etc. I would try to get a professional to diagnose this, I would hold off doing cap kit stuff until someone who is more knowledgeable can advise you.

Nyd

Yeah, I figured such. I will eventually call up a professional to look at it. Money is tight at the moment, and I am unsure as to how much it would cost to analyze and fix. What a silly problem -- everything else works fine on the damn thing, except for 480p anything apparently.

Thanks for all of your help thus far! I really appreciate it, as I am a novice with this sort of stuff.

I was in the same boat with 2530 I had, kept having issues with it, was going to ring a service tech but was concerned it would turn into a money pit, the display didn't knock my socks off like the 20l5 does so I ended up passing it onto someone who was more commited to restoring it.

20l5 is the most complex PVM going, its got a lot more going on inside than the average PVM, and in some cases BVM"s as its multisync. It would be heartbreaking if something coudln't be done to get it working proper,

I've noticed some weird wobble on my 20l5 only when using Sega Saturn's.
I think I may have caused my display some problems using an official Sega PAL Scart lead I picked up when I was living there. This cable works fine on my SD PVM but won't sync up at all with my L5 using the NTSC Saturns I own.

I bought a cheap NTSC scart from a UK game place consolegooks or something, it is flimsy and cheap and the sender labeled it JAP but it at least delivers a picture but wobbles.. I just ordered this lead:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161614608138

I have a Model 1 Japanese Saturn, I'm hoping it sorts out my wobble issue. I figure I'll flip my official Sega Saturn SCART as it's wired for a PAL saturn and is useless to me.

Nyd

[LK4O4]

Chiming in to say that I've been seeing this same issue as well. Here are two PVM-20L5s next to each other both receiving the same RGBs signal from my Toro box. For some reason, one of them has wavy lines and the other doesn't.

Spoiler

So I'm pretty sure it isn't the Toro that's causing any problems. The wavy one is the one that's later in the daisy chain, so it could potentially be something related to that, but I doubt it. Interestingly, the wavy-lined one doesn't have any problems at all with 240p content.

If anyone has any leads as to what the problem is or how to fix it, that would be wonderful.

[nelisan]

Did anyone ever find a solution or any more issue about this? I'm having the exact same issue on my 20L5, but oddly this is the only place I've found people talking about it so far.