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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:33 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 507
FBX wrote:
Full disclosure is of course I promote 'Smooth', however, I've got a PVM and a NES modded with an easy access JTAG port. What I can do is check some of the other palettes like 'Wavebeam' to see how they behave on my PVM. I'll try to list the quirks of the ones I test to give an idea of what to expect, and of course I will compare them to raw composite feed.

This will take me a day or so to look into, so I'll post back the findings then.


I mean, you don't have to go to all that effort, I was just thinking if you had a general idea. I suspect that they aren't all that different. Buuuuuut if you want to verify for sure, I won't object :)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:45 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
FBX wrote:
Full disclosure is of course I promote 'Smooth', however, I've got a PVM and a NES modded with an easy access JTAG port. What I can do is check some of the other palettes like 'Wavebeam' to see how they behave on my PVM. I'll try to list the quirks of the ones I test to give an idea of what to expect, and of course I will compare them to raw composite feed.

This will take me a day or so to look into, so I'll post back the findings then.


I mean, you don't have to go to all that effort, I was just thinking if you had a general idea. I suspect that they aren't all that different. Buuuuuut if you want to verify for sure, I won't object :)


It's no problem. Anything that gives me to use the JTAG port again makes it all the more fun having done the mod for it :-P
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:30 am 


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Sorry it took a little longer than anticipated. I forgot my BNC cables were JP21 from back when I used to have all JP21 RGB cables in my setup. I had to open it and re-solder all the wires to SCART assignments. After I got both Nintendo consoles set up and running, it became obvious the clear front-runners for accuracy were Smooth and Wavebeam (compared to the other firmware choices in the recent package).

So here's what I found when comparing composite feed into my 20M2U:


1. Smooth perfectly aligned with the 'Chroma' dial being set to dead center (noon position). Switching between the two feeds look nearly identical.

2. Wavebeam aligned with the 2 O'clock position on the 'Chroma' dial (meaning more saturated).

3. Wavebeam looked better on Super Mario Bros. 3. The extra saturation just works for the pastels of that game and really makes it more appealing. Smooth was of course accurate to center-level chroma, but again the game looked better with saturation turned up, so I found myself still preferring Wavebeam.

4. Smooth looked slightly better for Super Mario Bros.. The blue sky was closer to the correct hue than Wavebeam was, and the green shrubs and pipes were closer in relative saturation to the rest of the screen.

5. Smooth looking freakin' identical to composite feed on Legend of Zelda. Colors and hues looked like an RGB carbon copy of the composite feed for overworld, caves, and levels. Wavebeam had a couple colors that were off in hue. Specifically in caves, that dark rust color was too red-heavy compared to composite feed.

6. Same deal on Castlevania III: Smooth looked carbon copy, Wavebeam was very close with slightly different relative brightness on a few colors.

I stopped there, but if there's any other games you'd like me to check, let me know. Now I want to be clear that you were asking which was more accurate to composite and not which looked better. Which one looked better is more subjective. In the case of Super Mario Bros. 3, I thought the extra saturation of Wavebeam made the game really pop out and more fun to play.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:25 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 507
That is super helpful, thank you very much! I will probably stick with Smooth then as it seems the more accurate overall.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:23 pm 


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The key combination to switch between palettes is Start + Select + Right on the controller correct? I can't seem to get it to work for some reason... It's an original Famicom, trying it with the Hudson controller plugged in the front port (if that makes a difference). Any help will be appreciated. I contacted my modder and he confirmed that's the correct key combo, I'm not overly bummed about this as whichever the current set is looks good but was curious to see some comparisons while a game is on.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:00 am 


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werk91 wrote:
The key combination to switch between palettes is Start + Select + Right on the controller correct? I can't seem to get it to work for some reason... It's an original Famicom, trying it with the Hudson controller plugged in the front port (if that makes a difference). Any help will be appreciated. I contacted my modder and he confirmed that's the correct key combo, I'm not overly bummed about this as whichever the current set is looks good but was curious to see some comparisons while a game is on.


As far as I know, you need a mechanical switch to switch between palettes on the NESRGB.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:17 am 


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This is from the guide to install NESRGB in original Famicom (not NES): https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/installation-famicom
Quote:
There are two methods to change the colour palette. The first is to push SW2 (if installed). The second is to hold down a particular combination of buttons on the P1 control pad. The combination is START+SELECT+RIGHT in that order. You can tap right to cycle through the three palettes.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:26 am 



Joined: 13 Jul 2017
Posts: 13
@werk91 It works fine with the player one controller on the original Famicom, I don't have any other controller to test with so not sure about using the front port. Granted, as long as the installer has hooked up the needed wires from the NESRGB board to the controller pins that is.

@nakedarthur I have installed a few of borti's NESRGB IGR boards in regular NES's; https://github.com/borti4938/NESRGB-IGR
Works great.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:38 am 


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werk91 wrote:
This is from the guide to install NESRGB in original Famicom (not NES): https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/installation-famicom
Quote:
There are two methods to change the colour palette. The first is to push SW2 (if installed). The second is to hold down a particular combination of buttons on the P1 control pad. The combination is START+SELECT+RIGHT in that order. You can tap right to cycle through the three palettes.


Sorry, I wasn't aware of the differences with the Famicom version. After thinking about it though, it makes perfect sense :)

highzeth wrote:
@nakedarthur I have installed a few of borti's NESRGB IGR boards in regular NES's; https://github.com/borti4938/NESRGB-IGR
Works great.


Wow that's awesome, didn't know about this somehow. So you have to install a microcontroller for the added functionality?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:33 pm 



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nakedarthur wrote:
Wow that's awesome, didn't know about this somehow. So you have to install a microcontroller for the added functionality?


Pretty much, I ordered a a few of his PCBs; https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/C9jdssMN
Makes for a pretty install.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:42 pm 


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Turned out this combination (Start + Select + Right) only works with the original P1 pad on the Famicom. So it does work fine on mine :P


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:36 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
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Are these NES RGB palettes designed to be used on a display calibrated with 6500k or 9300k color temperature?

I believe a lot of Japanese games including NES were developed on 9300k monitors since that is the color temperature standard in Japan (NTSC-J), and the reason the sky in Super Mario Bros. appeared purple for a lot of people is because their displays were calibrated with 6500k giving the blues a more reddish color? 6500k is the standard in the United States with movies and broadcasts, which is why most film enthusiasts, calibrators and videophiles recommend that.

I remember when my Sony KD-XBR960 was professionally calibrated by an ISF/TH-certified calibrator, who calibrated with 6500k color temperature. The whites on my Wii menu were noticeably warm and had a yellow tint. When I switched to cooler temperature settings, the whites looked more pure and snow-like. I'm not sure if this is because of human perception, an issue with my TV or the calibration, or Wii games were designed on monitors calibrated with 9300k color temperature.

This thread expands on the discussion a bit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... _or_9300k/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:31 am 


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GeneraLight wrote:
Are these NES RGB palettes designed to be used on a display calibrated with 6500k or 9300k color temperature?



On a PVM, color temp changes both composite and RGB at the same time, so you can't get them crossed and end up miscalibrating a palette. For example, when you use "Smooth" on a PVM, it looks near identical to composite whether you set the color temp to D65 or D93. The blue sky gets more intense on both feeds, but the composite feed still drives the blue out of range of RGB. Smooth is the closest I've ever been able to get in capturing that color. Check it out for yourself sometime if you have access to a PVM and either an Nt mini or NESRGB mod.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:55 pm 



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FBX, I can see that you have Mega Man 2 somewhere in your collection, but do you also have the Legacy Collection? I only ask because I'm noticing that Smooth looks somewhat off by comparison. I tried to get screenshots, but evidently my capture card does not like my OSSC setup... In particular, it seems like colors seem less vibrant. On Bubble Man's stage, the magenta of the fish and the crabs at the end seems much darker and the greens don't pop quite as much. On Flash Man's intro, he appears purple instead of dark blue. I haven't done a lot of checking on other games, this one just stood out to me because I've played it so much. I have the OSSC on default settings.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:35 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
FBX, I can see that you have Mega Man 2 somewhere in your collection, but do you also have the Legacy Collection? I only ask because I'm noticing that Smooth looks somewhat off by comparison. I tried to get screenshots, but evidently my capture card does not like my OSSC setup... In particular, it seems like colors seem less vibrant. On Bubble Man's stage, the magenta of the fish and the crabs at the end seems much darker and the greens don't pop quite as much. On Flash Man's intro, he appears purple instead of dark blue. I haven't done a lot of checking on other games, this one just stood out to me because I've played it so much. I have the OSSC on default settings.


One of the problems with using default on the OSSC is it darkens the colors a fair bit below what I calibrated them at. Last time I checked the OSSC with my palette, I ended up having to raise the RGB gain settings to something like 45 to get it close to the original digital palette I made.

Here's the digital reference for Flash Man on my Smooth pallete:

Image

And keep in mind the colors above are based on composite video of the NTSC front-loader into a PVM. So while it may not look 'correct' on a digital display, it looks perfect on a PVM.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:45 pm 



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Ah, by comparison it doesn't look all that much more purple. Here is some shots from the Legacy Collection on PC: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wRGwRBcgWn4aDPRVA. Sorry about the compression, Steam doesn't seem to want to take clean screenshots. I'd say Flash Man is ever so slightly less purple in the collection, but not enough to bother about.

Do you find that increasing the gain on the OSSC makes other systems look over saturated? Or does it make them look more "correct" also? I know you love to get OCD about profiles and the like, but I'm more of a set-and-forget kinda guy, so I'd rather not have to do different settings for everything. If the settings are going to blow out other consoles, is there an alternative palette that would be more appropriate for the OSSC?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:49 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
Ah, by comparison it doesn't look all that much more purple. Here is some shots from the Legacy Collection on PC: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wRGwRBcgWn4aDPRVA. Sorry about the compression, Steam doesn't seem to want to take clean screenshots. I'd say Flash Man is ever so slightly less purple in the collection, but not enough to bother about.

Do you find that increasing the gain on the OSSC makes other systems look over saturated? Or does it make them look more "correct" also? I know you love to get OCD about profiles and the like, but I'm more of a set-and-forget kinda guy, so I'd rather not have to do different settings for everything. If the settings are going to blow out other consoles, is there an alternative palette that would be more appropriate for the OSSC?


Legacy collection used their own palette. I seem to recall at the time comparing it to direct capture work I did as well as RGB32E and it didn't quite match either of our palettes. It was somewhere in between them. However, remember that the legacy collection palette is just as subjective as any other palette out there. For example, it wouldn't match Nintendo's own NES Classic palette either.

On the OSSC end, most consoles seem to benefit from boosting the gain to 40-ish. This is if you want pure white to be closer to 255 instead of 240-ish. I think you can also just bump the new pre-gain feature to 9 or even 10 instead of the default 8 and that gets you pretty close too. Although keep in mind some consoles might need to actually lower the pre-gain due to out-of-spec brightness clipping.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:43 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
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Ah. I will experiment then and see if the pre-gain brightens things up a bit. I may just turn my PVM on (it's right next to the HDTV anyway) and compare until I get similar looks. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:30 am 



Joined: 29 Apr 2016
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Tim and FBX generously made a custom NESRGB firmware for me with Smooth, PVM Style D93, and Composite Direct. I uploaded it here in case anyone else would like it:

https://ufile.io/ze02x


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:44 am 


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Glad to see people still have interests in these palettes and their accuracy. I've been using Composite Direct for a year now and I've been pretty happy with it. There's only been a very few cases where I said to myself "That seems a little off" or "That's not quite how I remember it". It's usually the blue colors which seem a little darker. As we all know the overly bright blues of a stock NES can't be replicated.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:59 pm 



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Yes, I've really enjoyed following these projects.

I use Composite Direct most of the time too. I think the somewhat darker colors result in a nicely rich and deep image. FBX's explanation that this palette is probably more faithful to the intended colors makes sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:46 pm 


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copy wrote:
Yes, I've really enjoyed following these projects.

I use Composite Direct most of the time too. I think the somewhat darker colors result in a nicely rich and deep image. FBX's explanation that this palette is probably more faithful to the intended colors makes sense to me.


It's just a capture card that uses range clipping to fit the NTSC color space into RGB. Nintendo did the same thing on their NES Classic palette, only they then mucked it up using anti-epilepsy protection measures. This is why there's no one single palette that is the most 'accurate'. One person's capture card might clip the colors slightly different than another's and there's no governing body to say that 'this card chooses the correct clipping values over this one'. It's an old argument I got into with RGB32E, where he kept acting like his capture card palette was more 'accurate' than mine, when it was purely subjective to the card being used.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:35 pm 


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This may be a noob question but would it be possible to load more than 3 palletes and use a dip switch to select them?

I could see using something like this.

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cts-electrocomponents/210-6MS/CT2106MS-ND/2503783&?gclid=CjwKCAjwio3dBRAqEiwAHWsNVaELLyBVnidArQuh5ifYFC9gBf00w1KPlE7kSu1TuJWvl_8bpI2ObRoC2XwQAvD_BwE


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:08 am 


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So it looks like the Switch uses a slightly different palette for NES games than the NES Classic. The reds and blues look a little bit brighter. Probably not worth the time and effort of making a new palette though.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:00 pm 


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austin532 wrote:
So it looks like the Switch uses a slightly different palette for NES games than the NES Classic. The reds and blues look a little bit brighter. Probably not worth the time and effort of making a new palette though.


If I had a switch, I'd look into ripping them. I assume it has HDMI output, which would make it rather easy with the E1S card.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:40 pm 


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copy wrote:
Tim and FBX generously made a custom NESRGB firmware for me with Smooth, PVM Style D93, and Composite Direct. I uploaded it here in case anyone else would like it:

https://ufile.io/ze02x



That link requires payment, so I'm hosting this file on my own site now:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/Smooth_PVM-Style-D93_Composite-Direct.zip


-FBX
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:30 pm 



Joined: 29 Apr 2016
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Thanks FBX. However, may I suggest just adding it to your "NESRGB Firmware packages" zip file? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:55 pm 


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copy wrote:
Thanks FBX. However, may I suggest just adding it to your "NESRGB Firmware packages" zip file? :wink:


Okay I put it in the same zip package, and even threw in the old nostalgia firmware that has PC10 >> FCEUX >> Unsaturated-V6 in it. It may take a few minutes for the zip to replace itself on the web site, but it should be all there once it does.

-FBX
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:15 pm 



Joined: 30 Jul 2017
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Silly question but does anyone know if "Sony CXA" pallette on FBX's website is the same palette as the one people refer to as "Sony CXA2025AS"?

If so, I'm thinking of using Sony CXA/Smooth/Wavebeam with a CRT. It seems (?) that is the best combination for a CRT display from reading the comments in this thread and elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:18 pm 


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Yep, it's the same


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