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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:52 am 


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Ashura wrote:

FBX: Is there an easy way to apply your profile settings from RGB to Component? When I change video sources, the zoom settings from your profiles do not seem to stick.


I'll have to look into it. Normally I'd been making the zoom settings universal with the newer profiles, so perhaps I need to double-check those again. Did you make sure to use the ones from the latest package? I only ask because I've run into a few situations where someone PM'd me about an issue, and it turned out they were using outdated profile work and never bothered to update.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:35 am 


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FBX wrote:
I'll have to look into it. Normally I'd been making the zoom settings universal with the newer profiles, so perhaps I need to double-check those again. Did you make sure to use the ones from the latest package? I only ask because I've run into a few situations where someone PM'd me about an issue, and it turned out they were using outdated profile work and never bothered to update.


I'll redownload and check and let you know what happens shortly.

I think it's interesting that component doesn't seem to have this issue, or older versions of the firmware. :/


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:16 am 


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Ashura wrote:
I think it's interesting that component doesn't seem to have this issue, or older versions of the firmware. :/


It might be how the Framemeister processes those HDRetrovision cables. I noticed when I compared the SNES version of those cables to RGB, the color 'fidelity' as best as I can put it seemed more 'smeared' than RGB. I only caught it when I loaded up Artemio's color bar test pattern, where the red and blue bars had the smeared look, meanwhile the RGB version of them was very distinct and sharply tiled.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:49 pm 


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Another thing I noticed on the Model 1 US Saturn is that raising the black level under COLOR_SET to 5 all but eliminates the already faint traces of jailbars.

I ordered a Sync on Luma cable as well to repeat the tests and see if it makes any difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:29 am 


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In comparing Sync on Luma to Csync on my Model 2 with Jailbars, I noticed no difference in the results. The picture was nearly identical. In that, the problem persisted.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:49 am 


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Ashura wrote:
In comparing Sync on Luma to Csync on my Model 2 with Jailbars, I noticed no difference in the results. The picture was nearly identical. In that, the problem persisted.


Same here. Just got my Luma cable in the other day, and while I think it looks a little better in general than my old cable did, I still see the faint jailbars on my model 1. It's been making me nuts upgrading to the XRGB from my cheap upscaler (no jailbars) since import Saturn is kinda my go-to.

Every other system I have looks fantastic.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:31 am 


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RetroSnow wrote:
Another thing I noticed on the Model 1 US Saturn is that raising the black level under COLOR_SET to 5 all but eliminates the already faint traces of jailbars.



Unfortunately black level 5 is going to crush the shit out of the darker colors of the Saturn palette. You can get away with black level = 1, but anything beyond that is losing a lot of color fidelity. For low color count consoles like the SMS, NES, and even the Genesis, you can get away with around 4 or so.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:38 pm 


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I'm having some issues with my Model 2 PAL Saturn that has been modded to permanently display in 60Hz. Using the first party RGB SCART cable with a Sync Strike connected to a Mitsubishi Leonardo Plasma I get this: http://i.imgur.com/8SJcyj5.jpg

No such issues with the same console and cable using a CRT monitor, or using the same Sync Strike and plasma with other consoles.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:38 am 



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So after looking through this thread and seeing how apparently the jailbars don't show up via the HD Retrovision cable, I decided to buy a cheapo Chinese RGB to component converter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB- ... 2749.l2649

It would appear that the jailbars do not show up over component on the Framemeister. But out of curiosity I decided to plug the converter into my Samsung LED TV which fully supports 240p over component. I did see jailbars when plugged into my TV directly. People have stated that the jailbars don't show up via OSSC or via a real CRT and that it is only a problem with the Framemeister and Saturn games that run at certain resolutions, but now it would appear that the jailbars are not exclusive to the Framemeister.

The Saturn model I am using is a US MK-80000

Samsung UN60F6300

Image
Image
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:26 pm 


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earlier in the thread I mentioned that my Samsung HD television (UN40) also did this with a fairly nice scart to component converter (CSY – 2100). either way it's just that the scaling hardware/algorithms Samsung seems to use for most of their monitors doesn't appreciate the Sega Saturn's somewhat off spec signal, (even some CRTs will display faint jail bars).

I've never used the HD retro vision products personally, but I imagine they have a unique solution that they've built for their cables. according to an interview with them they've spent quite a bit of time analyzing RGB signals from various game systems to optimize the picture. whereas most of the scart to component converters were designed for fairly standardized signals coming out of DVD players (I assume).

another thing to watch out for is that most Saturns do better with sync on luma cables, a good number of Saturns will produce visual anomalies with csync cables. (not jail bars, but lots of other issues).


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:25 pm 



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Blair wrote:
another thing to watch out for is that most Saturns do better with sync on luma cables, a good number of Saturns will produce visual anomalies with csync cables. (not jail bars, but lots of other issues).


Wasn't that just for incorrectly build cables, though? RetroRGB says this happened to him for model 2 Saturns where the cables lacks the capacitor & resistor and was fixed with a proper cable. The luma signal is of course already perfectly on-spec out of the box and can just be passed along.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:47 pm 


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You know, I totally forgot about this thread! Now that I have an OSSC, I'm going to do some LPF testing with my Saturn to see if it picks up those jail bars. I'll post some pics when I get 'er done.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:05 pm 


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Update:

So the jail bars really are inherent to the Saturn itself due to lack of LPF. However, the OSSC does a BEAUTIFUL job of cleaning the image at 9Mhz LPF!

Take a look at this generic 4:3 OSSC image with LFP turned off:

Image

Jail bars galore.

Now take a look at the same stage with 9Mhz LPF and optimal timing (4:3 looks just as clean, but I went a step further with optimal timed pixels):

Image

Stunning quality!

BTW these Capcom fighter games on the Saturn run at 352x224, so optimal timings for this mode are as follows:

320x240 optimal (we have to set active pixels to 352, but this is the mode to use anyway)

H. samplerate = 455
H. synclen = 31
H. backporch = 49
H. active = 352

Sampling phase looked plenty fine at 180 degree default.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:19 am 



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FBX wrote:
Update:

So the jail bars really are inherent to the Saturn itself due to lack of LPF. However, the OSSC does a BEAUTIFUL job of cleaning the image at 9Mhz LPF!

Take a look at this generic 4:3 OSSC image with LFP turned off:

Image

Jail bars galore.

Now take a look at the same stage with 9Mhz LPF and optimal timing (4:3 looks just as clean, but I went a step further with optimal timed pixels):

Image

Stunning quality!

BTW these Capcom fighter games on the Saturn run at 352x224, so optimal timings for this mode are as follows:

320x240 optimal (we have to set active pixels to 352, but this is the mode to use anyway)

H. samplerate = 455
H. synclen = 31
H. backporch = 49
H. active = 352

Sampling phase looked plenty fine at 180 degree default.


Is there anyway to create an external LPF for framemeister users? This RGB to component converter removes the jailbars on the framemeister but the brightness and contrast are not quite right. I did a quick search and someone on this form mentioned using a 7374 RGB amp. Is this like the amp that you use for an n64, or snes jr RGB mod? I'm no engineer or anything, but I was able to successfully do those mods with step by step instructions that had pictures.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:39 pm 


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someitalian123 wrote:

Is there anyway to create an external LPF for framemeister users? This RGB to component converter removes the jailbars on the framemeister but the brightness and contrast are not quite right. I did a quick search and someone on this form mentioned using a 7374 RGB amp. Is this like the amp that you use for an n64, or snes jr RGB mod? I'm no engineer or anything, but I was able to successfully do those mods with step by step instructions that had pictures.


I had thought about this myself. I'm expecting it would require a 7374 bypass RGB amp with LPF enabled. But if that's the case, you'd want to do the mod internally like Voultar's board for the 1CHIP SNES consoles. He's got a jumper pad on his board where you can bridge-solder it to enable LPF.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:23 pm 


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I just got my OSSC today :)

I've replaced the EMI filters on my model 2 Saturn a while ago, which made the image slightly sharper, but the jailbars much more noticeable unfortunately. Glad to see that the OSSC still completely manages to remove them on my system too :)

FBX: Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but your Saturn settings above doesn't work for me. I just get a black screen when I input them :/

Got the OSSC running in 5x mode (1600x1200), and I've set the 5x mode to 320x240 optimal, and adjusted those setting according to your post. Using the same settings with 3x mode does work, but it looks terrible and not sharp at all. What could be the cause of this?

EDIT: I'm using SF Alpha 2 as well.

I also found that I had to enable upsample2x with VGA from my Dreamcast using the original SEGA VGA box, otherwise the image would be unsharp and shimmering. This works but it doesn't seem normal according to the OSSC wiki :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:38 pm 


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In 5x mode the 352 active hor. res is likely overstretching it. (5x320=1600, but 5x352=1760). Maybe you have more luck when using 5x with a widescreen output (1920x1080 or 1200).

Does your LG completely use the 1200 pix vertical res for further scaling ?


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:08 pm 


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Yes that would make sense. Though I wonder why it looks so bad in 3x mode too.

The LG OLED doesn't crop anything when using 1600x1200. It looks quite nice :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:40 pm 


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I am able to use these settings with 1920x1200 5x output on my Samsung 4k and it looks very good.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:11 pm 


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I did not realise that there was a 1920x1200 mode. I thought it was just 1920x1080 or 1600x1200 :p

Still looks wrong though:
https://imgur.com/a/sf5tQ

JAP model 2 Saturn, orginal Sega RGB cable directly to the OSSC. The Saturn has been modified to output c.sync instead of c.video.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:31 pm 


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Hmm.. yeah that doesn't seem right. Here's mine:

https://imgur.com/a/lGeQH

JP Model 1 playing SFA2 USA.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:35 pm 


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FBX wrote:
Update:

So the jail bars really are inherent to the Saturn itself due to lack of LPF. However, the OSSC does a BEAUTIFUL job of cleaning the image at 9Mhz LPF!


But only specific Saturns, yeah? 2 of my 3 don't exhibit this, or don't exhibit it heavily, over RGB on the Framemeister.

Also, what do we think was going on in earlier firmwares for the Framemeister, then? They had a blanket LPF they removed? Remember, up until like 1.10, there was no issue with this on the Framemeister. I can hook up even my jailbar-exhibiting Saturn to it and not see these kinds of issues.

And yeah, using the HD Retrovision cables through the Framemeister seems to not exhibit these issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:22 pm 


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I got the exact same experience with the framemeister and Saturn as you do. My other JAP Saturn also doesn't show the jailbars at all.

If I turn off the LPF on the OSSC I get MUCH worse jailbars than the picture FBX took.

EDIT: If I set sampling phase to 90 degrees it appears to be perfect :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:28 am 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
I did not realise that there was a 1920x1200 mode. I thought it was just 1920x1080 or 1600x1200 :p

Still looks wrong though:
https://imgur.com/a/sf5tQ

JAP model 2 Saturn, orginal Sega RGB cable directly to the OSSC. The Saturn has been modified to output c.sync instead of c.video.


Have you tried adjusting sampling phase? It looks sort of like your sampling phase is placed on the edges of the pixels.


Ashura wrote:

But only specific Saturns, yeah? 2 of my 3 don't exhibit this, or don't exhibit it heavily, over RGB on the Framemeister.

Also, what do we think was going on in earlier firmwares for the Framemeister, then? They had a blanket LPF they removed? Remember, up until like 1.10, there was no issue with this on the Framemeister. I can hook up even my jailbar-exhibiting Saturn to it and not see these kinds of issues.

And yeah, using the HD Retrovision cables through the Framemeister seems to not exhibit these issues.


Yes, the Framemeister changed LPF application during certain revisions of the firmware. That's why the image will look perfectly clean in 1.10, but then have jail bars in 2.03a.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:46 am 


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FBX wrote:
Have you tried adjusting sampling phase? It looks sort of like your sampling phase is placed on the edges of the pixels.


Yes I figured that out too :) If I set it to 90 degrees it looks perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:59 am 


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FBX wrote:
Yes, the Framemeister changed LPF application during certain revisions of the firmware. That's why the image will look perfectly clean in 1.10, but then have jail bars in 2.03a.


Hmm. I wonder if recapping would solve it? I wish there was more interest in Saturn stuff so people might try to figure out what causes this internally.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:44 pm 


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Ashura wrote:
FBX wrote:
Yes, the Framemeister changed LPF application during certain revisions of the firmware. That's why the image will look perfectly clean in 1.10, but then have jail bars in 2.03a.


Hmm. I wonder if recapping would solve it? I wish there was more interest in Saturn stuff so people might try to figure out what causes this internally.


I guess it could be a bad cap, but I've thought it might more be board revision related perhaps? I supposed I could do a complete recap on my Saturn and find out if it makes any difference.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:04 am 



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OK so using the RGB-to-Component Transcoder I get no jailbars, I spent some time trying to calibrate both it, and the framemeister, but I still can't get the color quite right. Here is a video I made showing both RGB and RGB converted to component. The youtube compression artifacting masks the jailbars a lot, but they can still been seen in the Panzer Dragon Intro and the Darkstalkers intro in the video. Also here are some stills as well.

https://youtu.be/CjLJJ04MNHQ

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:09 am 


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someitalian123 wrote:
OK so using the RGB-to-Component Transcoder I get no jailbars, I spent some time trying to calibrate both it, and the framemeister, but I still can't get the color quite right. Here is a video I made showing both RGB and RGB converted to component. The youtube compression artifacting masks the jailbars a lot, but they can still been seen in the Panzer Dragon Intro and the Darkstalkers intro in the video. Also here are some stills as well.



You shouldn't use sharpness = 1 unless the image is exceptionally muddy like on most N64 games. Otherwise, you'll introduce artifacts into the pixels. Instead, turn Auto_Scaler off and set H_Scaler to 5 and V_Scaler to 6. That's your best FM sharpness without artificial means.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:20 am 



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FBX wrote:
someitalian123 wrote:
OK so using the RGB-to-Component Transcoder I get no jailbars, I spent some time trying to calibrate both it, and the framemeister, but I still can't get the color quite right. Here is a video I made showing both RGB and RGB converted to component. The youtube compression artifacting masks the jailbars a lot, but they can still been seen in the Panzer Dragon Intro and the Darkstalkers intro in the video. Also here are some stills as well.



You shouldn't use sharpness = 1 unless the image is exceptionally muddy like on most N64 games. Otherwise, you'll introduce artifacts into the pixels. Instead, turn Auto_Scaler off and set H_Scaler to 5 and V_Scaler to 6. That's your best FM sharpness without artificial means.


Thanks


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