Sega Saturn Jailbars

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RGB32E
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by RGB32E »

masqdgamer wrote:Hi Guys
I also just pulled out my Saturn for the first time in a while, and I'm also getting the jailbars with 2 different Saturns (Japanese launch unit and a USA model 1)
What are the details of the two Saturns you've tried?

Image
masqdgamer wrote:Did anyone ever figure out a solution?
Keep trying different rev/mfg Saturn's until you find one you like? :lol: I haven't come across a consensus on a specific rev/mfg that is JB free in all scenarios. I know from years past that there were some who claimed that the model 1 revs were best, but I've found that doesn't hold true for all model 1 Saturn consoles. The XRGB-mini generally works well in filtering JBs out, but this is not quite the case when using any model with the XRGB-3, as the aggressive LPF setting softened the image considerably!

There's lists like this and this that contain S/N and rev information that identifies various revisions and manufactures.

There's also an Assembler thread and quite large DB.

http://assemblergames.com/l/threads/seg ... ons.45766/
http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/saturn
masqdgamer
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by masqdgamer »

Japanese Saturn is an HST-3200 / got this late December '94
USA Saturn is MK-80000 / got this used on eBay several years ago, has oval buttons.

I also have a brand new Derby Stallion model that I have not tried (japanese, HST-3220)

The HST-3200 and MK-80000 both have jailbars with newer firmware. Reverted to 1.03 fw, jailbars went away.
After further experimentation, It seems like the jailbars only appear with certain games when using the newer firmware:

SF Zero - jailbars
SF Zero 2 - jailbars
Gran Chaser - NO jailbars
Vampire Savior -jailbars
Crows The Battle Action - NO jailbars
World Heroes Perfect - NO jailbars

Just CAPCOM ports so far (that I have tried)

EDIT: went to FW 2.03 and tried some other games:
Game Tengoku - NO Jailbars (that I could see)
Puzzle Fighter - Jailbars
Daytona USA CE - Jailbars

I'm gonna try out the FM on a different HDTV in a bit and see if there is any difference.
Also, like someone else was saying, the jailbars don't occur on the Saturn into screen / bios or the Action Replay cart screen, just once the game loads and begins.

FW 1.05 No Jailbars, everything in Japanese though.
copy
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by copy »

I have jailbars too on my US model 2 (MK-80000A). Sync-on-luma cable, firmware 2.03a.

This is in Clockwork Knight and Sega Rally Championship. I haven't tried any other games or firmware versions.
masqdgamer
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by masqdgamer »

copy wrote:I have jailbars too on my US model 2 (MK-80000A). Sync-on-luma cable, firmware 2.03a.

This is in Clockwork Knight and Sega Rally Championship. I haven't tried any other games or firmware versions.
I tried several different FWs.
Settled on FW 1.11
Slight jailbars are still visible in my setup when using settings with no LPF on, but its only in certain games.

I didnt notice the jailbars with some of the older FWs, but those re-introduce other issues and lack of features that I'd rather not deal with.
Still debating on having an extra Micro SD laying around just for Saturn games, but I havent hit that level of over-analysis yet
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bonzo.bits
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by bonzo.bits »

I have this jailbar problem too on a model 2 Japanese Saturn. Seems to be worse after updating the Framemeister to firmware 2.03, but that might be due to the fact I've just started playing Panzer Dragoon also and it looks like arse.

Can also confirm jailbars on Sega Rally and Decathlete.

No jailbars on Darius Gaiden, Metal Slug, PD Saga, Marvel vs Capcom.

Do the Micomsoft devs or engineers ever visit these forums? Has anyone tried emailing their support team? I don't want rollback Firmware but freedom from jailbars almost sounds worth it....
jdawg131
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by jdawg131 »

I also have jailbars on my Saturn (model 2 USA). Connected via RGB (JP21) and using firmware v2.03. I haven't noticed them on the couple of 240p Capcom 2D fighters that I've tested (Street Fighter Zero II and X-Men vs Street Fighter) so far, but they're definitely noticeable on the 480i games (Virtua Fighter 2 and Fighters Megamix) that I've played recently.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by jdawg131 »

Just did some moe testing today. Doesn't matter if it's 720p or 1080p, when the jailbars are there, they're there. As I stated previously, I don't see them in XvsSF. Just fired up Vampire Hunter, and they're present. Very weird issue.

EDIT - My RGB cable is the Pro RGB Cable (sync on luma) from Solaris Japan.
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Blair
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by Blair »

I have three model two Sega Saturn's (all various revisions). (all of my testing was done with both c-sync and sync on luma cables)

plugging the RGB of the Sega Saturn into my Sony PVM-20L5 gives me very faint (almost unnoticeable) jail bars, but only with 480i display modes (Virtua fighter 2) all 240p content seems to show no jail bars.

plugging the RGB of the Sega Saturn directly into my Samsung LCD gives me pretty bad jail bars (regardless of video mode), using an HDMI transcoder makes it look better, but the jail bars are still there and pretty annoying (but only in 480i). connecting my Saturn directly into any of my DVDO processors produces a completely jail bar free image (regardless of video mode).

from what I've read in the OSSC discussion page, it just has something to do with the way different displays/processors handle the slightly off spec signal of the Sega Saturn. Marks seemed to indicate that he would be adding a setting to the OSSC firmware that would allow you to adjust a specific value which should lessen or remove the jail bars on most models, but it might make your signal slightly less compatible with certain monitors/televisions.

I have no experience using the the FrameMeister with the Sega Saturn, but I seem to recall somebody figuring out a way to minimize the appearance of jail bars (but I'm not sure what firmware that was).
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

I'm getting jail bars in the SFA2 game I tested when either using csync or sync-on-luma with the Framemeister at the current firmware of 2.03a. What's weird is you can 'shift' the jail bars as you raise or lower the sync level function of the Framemeister, and this indicates there's something about the sync signal it doesn't like from the Saturn.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by jdawg131 »

FBX wrote:I'm getting jail bars in the SFA2 game I tested when either using csync or sync-on-luma with the Framemeister at the current firmware of 2.03a. What's weird is you can 'shift' the jail bars as you raise or lower the sync level function of the Framemeister, and this indicates there's something about the sync signal it doesn't like from the Saturn.
The frustrating part is that it wasn't an issue with older firmware revisions.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

So in looking over all the reports, I'm wondering if it something to do with the oddball horizontal resolutions of 704 in high res and 352 in low res. Games where people report no jail bar issues have turned out to be running in 320 mode. I'm going to order a couple of known 320 mode games to confirm on my end.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

After looking into buying more games for the Saturn, I was shocked to discover they've gone full tilt expensive, with games like SFZ3 going for over $200+. I'm sorry, but I'm not paying those prices. So instead, I bought an Action Replay cart that was flashed with Pseudo Saturn Kai lite, which bypasses the Saturn's region lock and copy protection. I've downloaded several iso files and burned them to CDs and have been testing games that way on the Saturn (frikken awesome modless way to play isos btw).

At any rate, I confirmed it is a resolution mode issue the Framemeister's current firmware doesn't like. World Heroes Perfect for example, has a flawlessly crisp image with no jail bars whatsosever, and it uses 320 mode instead of 352. Games that use 352 or 704 however, have the jail bars visible.
douglie007
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by douglie007 »

@FBX I have all models of the Saturn and a complete US set of games if you need me to help with testing...
k4l
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by k4l »

I stumbled on this thread a while back when I was playing Virtua Copy 2 and Panzer Dragoon Zwei and noticed some heavy jailbars.

I'm currently running PAL consoles with PAL games using the latest firmware on the framemeister and sync on luma cables from RGCUK.
I ended up getting another Saturn console (Model 1) thinking it might be model related. Due to time constraints I have yet to test it out. I have another model 2 on the way in a months time.

I have about 50 PAL titles I can run some tests. I can also run it through the VP50 and see if it occurs there. I could also burn some discs and use Pseudo saturn if needed.

If there is anything you need a hand testing let me know. More than happy to help.
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Ashura
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by Ashura »

I noticed this after updating the firmware on my Framemeister so I could actually use Firebrand's profiles! I downgraded just to check and sure enough it's just on the newer firmware (post 1.10ish ?). Glad to see people are discussing this though.

I have three Saturns; a model 1 and 2 model 2s.

The model 1 doesn't exhibit this at all on the Framemeister on the current firmware, one model 2 doesn't seem to display the issue or at the very least very faintly, and the third had terrible jailbars (this one being my main use console, of course...). Again, if I downgrade the firmware, like most people on this thread, the problem goes away completely.

It seems to only happen on certain games which run in certain video modes. Sonic Jam is fine, for instance, but see it in most Capcom fighters I've tried (the two Darkstalkers, the SFII Collection, etc.), as well as parts of certain other games. Like the AMV opening to Burning Rangers shows it.

I have and tested all three consoles on 3 different JP-21 cables. Two C-Sync and 1 sync on Luma. It happens no matter the cable or age of cable - I just purchased the sync on Luma and a new Csync cable to test just a week ago.

Sorry if this is redundant- I know this is just 'confirming what we already know', but I figured the more source samples of info the better?

Is there a way we can ask the XRGB peeps to try to fix this in an update? It seems to me whatever they did to sync in the newest firmware did this, and ideally they should fix it on their end?
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

Ashura wrote: Sorry if this is redundant- I know this is just 'confirming what we already know', but I figured the more source samples of info the better?
Yeah, I already determined it's a resolution-based issue on the Framemeister concerning the Saturn. If the Saturn game runs in 320 mode, it will be crystal clear. If it runs in 352 or 704 mode, it will have the jail bars.
copy
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by copy »

Soon it will be possible to use HD Retrovision's revised Genesis cable (featuring improved sync) with their new Saturn adapter. I wonder if the Framemeister might like that better.
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Ashura
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by Ashura »

While it would be nice if that works, it still feels like Micomsoft should be contacted and the issue explained? Maybe we can get them to issue a new firmware? I know that the Framemeister has actually been discontinued, but it would be nice if they fixed this dumb little issue, especially since everything works perfectly fine on older firmwares.
TestType
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by TestType »

Is there any consensus on which model Saturn is the best regarding picture quality (jailbars etc.) and durability (disc drives)? I've been researching it a lot but am still left confused as to which to model to buy and have yet to see any strong preference for a specific model. I'm in Japan at the moment with about two weeks left and I'm gonna have to pick up a Japanese model 1 or 2 before I leave.

RetroRGB's website hasn't been much help in this regard, except it seems that the model 2 apparently requires some extra components in the cable. Those cables are not currently available at Retro Gaming Cables, which would probably be the easiest place for me to buy from (I'm in Europe). I was also really hoping the My Life in Gaming episode on the Saturn would be out by now. For the record I of course looked at many other websites and forums.
I think I like the look of the Japanese white model 2 a little bit better than the dark gray model 1, so I would prefer that one just based on the looks of the hardware, but will pick up a model 1 if it has some advantages. It also seems easier for me to find a nice looking white one for cheap while I will have to pay more for a good looking gray unit. I will be using an OSSC (v1.6) and possibly a PVM at some point if it makes any difference.
Last edited by TestType on Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ashura
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by Ashura »

From what I understand, this is a problem inherent to the framemeister on firmware past 1.10 on certain model 2 Saturn units only?

Model 1s seem unaffected? I have a model 2 which does work fine and then another with terrible jailbars.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

Ashura wrote:From what I understand, this is a problem inherent to the framemeister on firmware past 1.10 on certain model 2 Saturn units only?
I have a model 1 from Japan and it also has the jail bars, so I don't think it's a revision issue on the console side.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by nissling »

Got a Japanese model 1 as well and have never seen any jailbars on it whatsoever, neither on my BVM or with my XRGB-Mini. I'm using RGBs with composite video as sync.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

nissling wrote:Got a Japanese model 1 as well and have never seen any jailbars on it whatsoever, neither on my BVM or with my XRGB-Mini. I'm using RGBs with composite video as sync.
Two questions:

Which company did you buy the cable from?

and

Are you using the latest firmware on the Framemeister?
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by nissling »

I'm using an official cable from Sega. Formerly I had a PAL Saturn and all units in Europe came with a SCART-cable, with RGB and sync on composite. I do know that the pinout differs for the regions, whereas the PAL units have 9volt on the same pin as NTSC-J units have Csync. However, composite video is on the same pin, at least on the revisions that I've used, so it's a safe bet.

And yes, I'm using the latest firmware (2.03, or something like that). Can double-check to see if there's any jailbars if you're interested.

EDIT: Should be noted that the cable I'm using originally came with a model 2 PAL Saturn. The SCART cables that came with the model 1 are of rather poor quality as they often get loose and show a pinkish image as the green signal isn't being transferred properly at that point.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

nissling wrote:I'm using an official cable from Sega. Formerly I had a PAL Saturn and all units in Europe came with a SCART-cable, with RGB and sync on composite. I do know that the pinout differs for the regions, whereas the PAL units have 9volt on the same pin as NTSC-J units have Csync. However, composite video is on the same pin, at least on the revisions that I've used, so it's a safe bet.

And yes, I'm using the latest firmware (2.03, or something like that). Can double-check to see if there's any jailbars if you're interested.

EDIT: Should be noted that the cable I'm using originally came with a model 2 PAL Saturn. The SCART cables that came with the model 1 are of rather poor quality as they often get loose and show a pinkish image as the green signal isn't being transferred properly at that point.
Hmmm, so you're using a Sega cable from a model 2 PAL console on an NTSC-J model 1 console. Often times SCART cables sold back in the day didn't actually support RGB (typically only piped composite video through the line), and I will say that the jail bars do not show up on Composite video with the Framemeister. However, I'm sure you'd know you're seeing a composite source instead of pure RGB. Still though, I'm betting if you bought a new SCART cable that is confirmed RGB + Csync for that NTSC-J system, and loaded up a Capcom fighter like SFZ2 or 3, you'd see jail bars.

Edit: Did some searching around and confirmed Sega Saturn PAL cables were in fact RGB with composite video as sync. So now I'm wondering if composite video sync somehow avoids the jail bars? My cable uses sync on luma, but we already know there are jail bars with csync. The mystery deepens!
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by nissling »

Trust me, the Sega Saturn shipped with RGB-cables (or well, SCART cables with RGB support) in Europe. And I know very well the difference between RGB and composite video. I've been a Laserdisc collector for many years and for video games, I'm never using anything less than RGB. As a matter of fact, I've never even used composite video on the Saturn. You will pretty much never find a PAL set here with any other cables.

Here's a screenshot of my model 1 Saturn using a model 2 SCART cable on my BVM-20F1J. I used a 40mm macro lens, although I prefer higher focal lengths for capturing CRTs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ff6E ... sp=sharing
Pretty much as far away from composite as it gets...

EDIT: Come to think of it, I did once actually use composite video on the Saturn. I once took the sync cable from my SCART->BNC breakout and just plugged it in the composite input on my BVM-1454QM and got composite video. Simple as that. For being composite it was actually rather decent but RGB is still many steps ahead.

EDIT2: I do have Street Fighter Zero 2 and will try it out.
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

When you try SFZ2, load up Ken's stage and set the image mode to "STANDARD". That seems to show the vertical stripes the most on my end. Take a screen cap if you have a direct capture device. It would be much appreciated!

Edit: I see you are using a CRT?

Well actually the stripes issue we're trying to figure out is Framemeister to digital displays. Can you hook it up to one and do the above test?
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by gray117 »

TestType wrote:Is there any consensus on which model Saturn is the best regarding picture quality (jailbars etc.) and durability (disc drives)?
Durability: I don't think it makes too much difference... just previous usage. Only had noticeable issue with a model 1 drive, but there's so many small variants about it really gets impossible to be super specific, and I've not seen any indication of a stand out good or bad version. The only thing you need to worry about on all models is the cartridge slot - try to confirm it works, and when you get it put in your action replay (probably?) and leave it there. The contacts here are brittle, prone to bending/failure - avoid yanking stuff in and out.

If drive durability is a top concern, get a rhea (+ 21 pin drive saturn - for Japan consoles this basically means a grey saturn... incidentally I think this alone is why they've become worth more than the better looking whites at the moment) by checking for pre-orders religiously: https://gdemu.wordpress.com

But it should be noted you can actually use any region saturn (and/or with a bust disk drive, because you remove actual drive). Of course this is a hassle + price starts to become academic.

But it really is a lovely tool imho and although he might put some people's backs up Radosław/Deunan deserves every bit of credit for his past/present/future efforts across the board - you just wish he had even more spare time ;)

PVM: picture quality wise I don't think this'll matter. The issues being discussed here is more in regards to compatibility with the framemeister.
There are issues with all that can be carefully modded (checkerboard and jail bars), but usually they don't manifest themselves so obviously (if at all), and generally won't be worth the effort/risk/damage necessary for modding. All saturn versions are prone to this afaik.

It'd be interesting to see if something could be (relatively) easily done in regards to the sync specifically in this case to improve (or even exaggerate) the issue with the framemeister to narrow down exact cause here... If it was something like signal strength intolerance with certain resolutions there might be an easy workaround until there's a firmware fix - I'm not sure why else you'd get jail bars if it was just the (pixel count) resolution spec alone causing an artefact, but rather something is interfering with colours...
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by FBX »

I made a screen cap of just how bad the jail bars are on 352 and 704 games in the Framemeister on a digital display:
Spoiler
Image
Absolutely awful!

That's using "Standard" image mode for the purposes of demonstrating how bad they can be. This is coming from a model 1 Japanese Saturn and retro_console_accessories's sync-on-luma cable (same results when using csync).
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Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars

Post by nissling »

FBX wrote:When you try SFZ2, load up Ken's stage and set the image mode to "STANDARD". That seems to show the vertical stripes the most on my end. Take a screen cap if you have a direct capture device. It would be much appreciated!

Edit: I see you are using a CRT?

Well actually the stripes issue we're trying to figure out is Framemeister to digital displays. Can you hook it up to one and do the above test?
I do have a Framemeister and just tried out my Sega Saturn on it, although I didn't have the proper profiles. There were some slight hints of jailbars in SFZ2 but nowhere near as bad as in your example. Will download your profiles right away and do another test.

EDIT: My monitor is a Benq XL2411T (144Hz gaming LCD).
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