Sega Saturn Jailbars

[FBX]

When you try SFZ2, load up Ken's stage and set the image mode to "STANDARD". That seems to show the vertical stripes the most on my end. Take a screen cap if you have a direct capture device. It would be much appreciated!

Edit: I see you are using a CRT?

Well actually the stripes issue we're trying to figure out is Framemeister to digital displays. Can you hook it up to one and do the above test?

I do have a Framemeister and just tried out my Sega Saturn on it, although I didn't have the proper profiles. There were some slight hints of jailbars in SFZ2 but nowhere near as bad as in your example. Will download your profiles right away and do another test.

EDIT: My monitor is a Benq XL2411T (144Hz gaming LCD).

Yeah try that menu screen, and set the image mode to "Standard" after you load my profile (load the profile first of course).

[nissling]

Tried out the menu with your 5X profile. I can certainly see the jailbars in the background when using picture but it's nowhere near as obvious as your example. Switching over to standard, the jailbars are barely even visible. Not completely gone but certainly not far from.

[FBX]

Tried out the menu with your 5X profile. I can certainly see the jailbars in the background when using picture but it's nowhere near as obvious as your example. Switching over to standard, the jailbars are barely even visible. Not completely gone but certainly not far from.

Weird. On my end, the opposite happens: The Jail bars are much fainter in "PICTURE" mode.

[TestType]

Is there any consensus on which model Saturn is the best regarding picture quality (jailbars etc.) and durability (disc drives)?

Durability: I don't think it makes too much difference... just previous usage. Only had noticeable issue with a model 1 drive, but there's so many small variants about it really gets impossible to be super specific, and I've not seen any indication of a stand out good or bad version. The only thing you need to worry about on all models is the cartridge slot - try to confirm it works, and when you get it put in your action replay (probably?) and leave it there. The contacts here are brittle, prone to bending/failure - avoid yanking stuff in and out.

If drive durability is a top concern, get a rhea (+ 21 pin drive saturn - for Japan consoles this basically means a grey saturn... incidentally I think this alone is why they've become worth more than the better looking whites at the moment) by checking for pre-orders religiously: https://gdemu.wordpress.com

Thanks a lot for the reply. I may get a model 1 simply because of better cable availability, but we'll see. I'm gonna think about it a bit more.
While the drive replacements are cool, they are expensive and seem very difficult to buy, so here's hoping the flash cart being developed picks up some speed.

[Ashura]

I made a screen cap of just how bad the jail bars are on 352 and 704 games in the Framemeister on a digital display:

Spoiler

Absolutely awful!

That's using "Standard" image mode for the purposes of demonstrating how bad they can be. This is coming from a model 1 Japanese Saturn and retro_console_accessories's sync-on-luma cable (same results when using csync).

This is pretty much 100% the result I get on my one Model 2. I guess it really depends on the internals at this point, and not which model or anything.

I keep saying this, but I think someone should reach out to Micomsoft; I have a friend who is fluent in Japanese who could translate a message for us (he deals with all of our Japanese correspondence at the game company I work for), just not sure who would be the best to contact or what we would want to say.

[FBX]

A friend of mine sent me a screen cap of the SFZ2 menu where he doesn't get ANY jail bars whatsoever. So what concerns me is we need to find out which is the case:

Are the jail bars the result of one Framemeister being slightly different than the next?

or

Are the jail bars the result of one Saturn being slightly different than the next?

If we can answer that question, then we can figure out the best course of action from there.

-FBX

[Ashura]

Well, like I mentioned, I tested -

A Model 1 US
A Model 2 JP
Another Model 2 JP

with both sync on luma and csync cables all on the same Framemeister.

The model 1 US and one of the Model 2 JPs worked fine, no jailbars. Or at the very least, if there were jailbars I could not see them.
The third model 2 has the jailbars hardcore.

My conclusion is that different models of Saturn can definitely cause different amounts of jailbars on the Framemeister with firmware past 1.10.

This does not rule out that some Framemeisters could also have different effects with different models, though.

However, if I revert the firmware to 1.10, all 3 work perfectly. This seems to be the case for everyone else, too, yeah?

This is why asking them for, perhaps, a legacy sync option sounds like the course of action to me.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I guess it really depends on the internals at this point, and not which model or anything.

Of course. I feel like this is worth mentioning. There are multiple board variations within models of Saturn. Just like the Genesis. Random changes to stuff inside. Fortunately I don't think any of it ever effected video quality unlike the Genesis and all the varying levels of composite there.

Like you say later, legacy sync is the easiest idea. To fix issues with specific Saturn boards now, extensive testing would need to be done. Doesn't seem worth the hassle in comparison.

[FBX]

My conclusion is that different models of Saturn can definitely cause different amounts of jailbars on the Framemeister with firmware past 1.10.

So it would seem the worse case scenario: You have to hope to get lucky on the Sega Saturn you purchase.

Since I see it in luma sync as well as csync, I'm not sure where the bars are coming from.

[Ashura]

Yeah, I saw it in both csync and luma sync as well.

They changed how sync works in general on the framemeister, though, since the 1.10 version IIRC? There's like a slider now which seems to do nothing in this case.

[FBX]

Major update!

After routing the Saturn through my new gscartsw_lite I just got in today, I discovered the jail bar effect was significantly reduced! So much so in fact that on "PICTURE" mode, I can only barely make them out in dark color shades. This reduction of the jail bar effect seemed independent of the csync switch on the gscartsw_lite, so I'm not sure what it could be.

-FBX

[Fudoh]

I'm still baffled why you get LESS jail bars with the Picture setting instead of Standard, since Standard processing mode has the stronger low pass filter in place.

[FBX]

I'm still baffled why you get LESS jail bars with the Picture setting instead of Standard, since Standard processing mode has the stronger low pass filter in place.

Yeah, it's significantly less with PICTURE, while STANDARD has by far the worst amount. /shrug

[werk91]

Do those jailbars appear with the Framemeister only? I can't say I've ever noticed them on the Saturn with my setup.

[FBX]

Do those jailbars appear with the Framemeister only? I can't say I've ever noticed them on the Saturn with my setup.

That would be the next real test, but it needs someone with an OSSC that also happens to have a Saturn showing jail bars on their Framemeister, and the means to do a screen cap from both upscalers.

Speaking of screen caps, I made a definitive screen cap comparison of the firmware difference, as well as what happens when you add the gscartsw_lite into the chain:

Spoiler

As you can see, 1.11E doesn't have any jail bars, but a LOT more blocky noise. 2.02E and onwards show the jail bars, with "Standard" mode being the worst offender. Then you can see that the gscartsw_lite addition to the chain during "Picture" mode reduces the jail bars enough to make them only barely visible.

Now I have to say that this is just how my Framemeister is behaving. Other have reported different levels of jail bars in their own image mode tests. But yeah, we need someone with an OSSC to take an unfiltered screen cap of a know 'jail bar issues' Saturn.


-FBX

[mvsfan]

There are at least 15 named revisions of the Saturn.

VA0/VA1 -Model 1 Saturn, 20 pin drive
VA2 - Model 1 or Model 2 Saturn (Va2 came as both), 21 pin
VA3-VA15 Model 2,

different motherboards between each type.

I think the revisions have everything to do with video Quality.

I have 2 model 1 VA0 and VA1 and the quality is great on them.

my model 2 va3 isnt as good but have another model 2 thats fine.

[FBX]

Well I went ahead and bought a nice-looking model 1 Saturn USA black version from ebay. I'll find out in a week or so when it arrives what the PQ for it looks like on my Framemeister.

[jdawg131]

I have a Model 2 USA Saturn, and had really noticeable jailbars last year around this time. Every 480i game (Virtua Fighter 2, All Japan featuring Virtua, Fighting Vipers) showed them, and a few of my Capcom 2D fighters did as well. Over the past year I've added a JP21 gscartsw switch and replaced a faulty sync on luma cable with a cysnc one. Just did a quick test this morning:

XRGB Mini Firmware 2.03a
Virtua Fighter 2 (1080p, Smart X2, Natural) - no jailbars
Street Fighter Zero 2 (720p, Standard, Picture) - no jailbars

I definitely don't think that it's the new cysnc cable, so I'd have to lean towards the gscartsw switch "cleaning" the signal prior to it reaching the XRGB Mini.

[bonzo.bits]

That would be the next real test, but it needs someone with an OSSC that also happens to have a Saturn showing jail bars on their Framemeister, and the means to do a screen cap from both upscalers.

If you can point me toward a capable capture device, I'll take some screen grabs. I've got a jailbar model 2, OSSC and FM and have been looking for a good reason to get a capture device.

[FBX]

That would be the next real test, but it needs someone with an OSSC that also happens to have a Saturn showing jail bars on their Framemeister, and the means to do a screen cap from both upscalers.

If you can point me toward a capable capture device, I'll take some screen grabs. I've got a jailbar model 2, OSSC and FM and have been looking for a good reason to get a capture device.

Do the jail bars show up when you try it out on the OSSC, or just on the Framemeister?

[bonzo.bits]

99.99% sure it's just on the Framemeister. I'll confirm tonight. I have HDR component cables and a Saturn adapter so I'll also give that a shot via the FM and the OSSC. Might not yield anything relevant, but will be handy to know.

[FBX]

99.99% sure it's just on the Framemeister. I'll confirm tonight. I have HDR component cables and a Saturn adapter so I'll also give that a shot via the FM and the OSSC. Might not yield anything relevant, but will be handy to know.

When you do the tests, make sure the OSSC's LPF is turned OFF. Also check with RGB cables too if you can.

[bonzo.bits]

When you do the tests, make sure the OSSC's LPF is turned OFF. Also check with RGB cables too if you can.

Oh yeah, sorry. There was meant to be an 'also' or 'too' in that sentence. I've just checked both the FM and OSSC with:

- HDR Genesis component cable (Rev 1) with adapter for Saturn
- RCA C-Sync cable
- FM firmware 2.03a
- OSSC firmware 0.77-a

FM: HDR cable gives jailbar-free picture. RCA cable very distinct jailbars across entire picture.

OSSC: HDR cable gives no jailbars. RCA cable, with sync LPF in 'off' and 'low' settings does not give any picture. 'Med' and 'high' settings give a jailbar-free picture.

Maybe someone else with an OSSC and a jailbar-prone Saturn could test on their setup in the hope it will give a picture with the Sync LPF turned off...

-

[FBX]

OSSC: ...RCA cable, with sync LPF in 'off' and 'low' settings does not give any picture.

Now that is interesting. I wonder why the picture doesn't show up? Maybe this has something to do with the same issue as the jail bars?

By the way, my USA black Saturn model 1 arrived today. The jail bar effect is only 50% of my Japanese Saturn, and as a result, the pattern cannot be seen to the naked eye when the Framemeister is set to "Picture" mode. They become visible when I switch it to "Standard" mode as per usual with my FM. However, since they are less intense, I'm now suspecting this might be a PCB components issue on the Saturn, like maybe a cap job or something like that type of restoration work might remove the jail bars completely.

In any case, the USA black Saturn I got is in pristine condition, and for once, I actually think the color scheme and design looks better than the Japanese counterpart. So I'm going to use it as my main Saturn console since it has virtually no jail bars issue under "Picture" mode. When my OSSC arrives here in a month or so, I'll of course be testing both units on it as well.

-FBX

[bonzo.bits]

OSSC: ...RCA cable, with sync LPF in 'off' and 'low' settings does not give any picture.

Now that is interesting. I wonder why the picture doesn't show up? Maybe this has something to do with the same issue as the jail bars?

I'm guessing so. Also, just for the sake of clarity, the OSSC doesn't sync with the Saturn with these two LPF settings. Just clearing that up so we can rule out other stuff that can cause image problems with the OSSC, such as low-quality HDMI cables.

By the way, my USA black Saturn model 1 arrived today. They jail bar effect is only 50% of my Japanese Saturn, and as a result, the pattern cannot be seen to the naked eye when the Framemeister is set to "Picture" mode. They become visible when I switch it to "Standard" mode as per usual with my FM. However, since they are less intense, I'm now suspecting this might be a PCB components issue on the Saturn, like maybe a cap job or something like that type of restoration work might remove the jail bars completely.
-FBX

Dammit, now I feel the need for Model 1 so I can investigate.

Is there any chance these could be caused by power supply issues?

[FBX]

Is there any chance these could be caused by power supply issues?

I doubt it, because 320 mode is completely jail bar free. If it were power supply board issues, the jails bars should show up in every mode, but they only show up in 352 and 704 modes.


-FBX

[bonzo.bits]

Is there any chance these could be caused by power supply issues?

I doubt it, because 320 mode is completely jail bar free. If it were power supply board issues, the jails bars should show up in every mode, but they only show up in 352 and 704 modes.


-FBX

Do you know of anywhere I can find a list of which games use non-320 resolutions?

[FBX]

Is there any chance these could be caused by power supply issues?

I doubt it, because 320 mode is completely jail bar free. If it were power supply board issues, the jails bars should show up in every mode, but they only show up in 352 and 704 modes.


-FBX

Do you know of anywhere I can find a list of which games use non-320 resolutions?

Unfortunately not. As far as 320 mode goes, World Heroes Perfect is one example that can be used as the control test. It doesn't show any jail bars on my end.

[Ashura]

So I finally got a D-Terminal to component cable to try out with the HD Retrovision Saturn Cable through the Framemeister. In Picture mode, the jailbars don't show up at all. In standard mode they're SUPER faint.

Here's some comparison shots:

JP-21 C-Sync (you can clearly see the jailbars in the top left in Lei-Lei's arms)

Spoiler

HD Retrovision - Standard Mode (so faint you have to zoom in to see them)

Spoiler

HD Retrovision - Picture Mode (pretty much non-existent)

Spoiler

FBX: Is there an easy way to apply your profile settings from RGB to Component? When I change video sources, the zoom settings from your profiles do not seem to stick.

[RetroSnow]

Registered an account here just to jump in on this issue and hopefully help out since it's driving me crazy too.

I've got 3 Saturns and a Framemeister. Testing with a high quality CSYNC RGB cable. In Picture mode.

1. Black US Model 1: Almost no visible jailbars at all. On certain shades I can see them faintly, but I have to get right up on my 55" TV to even see a trace.

2. Grey JP Model 1: My primary Saturn since most of my games are JP. This one shows the nastiest jail bars out of all 3, which is a shame. Even tweaking other settings they're still plainly visible.

3. White JP Model 2: Kind of right there in the middle. Pretty obvious on certain games.

House of the Dead has been a good tester for me. I noted that it exhibits really pronounced jailbars on systems that are prone to producing them.

So far it's obvious that the problem worsens with specific models, but it's also the XRGB doing something weird. I tried all 3 Saturns in a cheap $35 upscaler and NONE of them show any jailbars using the same cables.