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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:39 pm 



Joined: 30 Jul 2018
Posts: 3
Konsolkongen wrote:
NiGHTS into Dreams has a 16:9 mode if you didn't know :)

Best f'ing game ever made btw.

Yeah, and it's the definitive way to play in my opinion. The beauty of NiGHTS actually inspired me to stop using composite and get a FM along with RGB Scart to experience it in the best way possible. All that's left is to get rid of those nasty jailbars, then the beauty of the game will be fully realized. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:14 am 


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ElectricStriker wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:
NiGHTS into Dreams has a 16:9 mode if you didn't know :)

Best f'ing game ever made btw.

Yeah, and it's the definitive way to play in my opinion. The beauty of NiGHTS actually inspired me to stop using composite and get a FM along with RGB Scart to experience it in the best way possible. All that's left is to get rid of those nasty jailbars, then the beauty of the game will be fully realized. :D


If you're using an FM, then the beauty will only be partially realized ;-)

Have to have an OSSC if you want the cleanest and clearest picture with proper colors, and of course the OSSC solves the jail bar problem with its own LPF function.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:09 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
bobrocks95 wrote:
You might be able to find or build a small LPF circuit just for the Saturn? That or buying an OSSC are the angles I'd look into- finding a Saturn without the issue seems hopeless. Knowing how badly the Genesis was designed I'm pretty confident it's an outright design flaw on Sega's part.


What kind of LPF circuits would that be and where do I need to solder them on? Is there any documentation on this out there?

Something like those?
https://www.njr.com/semicon/products/NJM2582.html
or:
http://retrorgb.com/thsamps.html


Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:44 pm 



Joined: 30 Jul 2018
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FBX wrote:
Have to have an OSSC if you want the cleanest and clearest picture with proper colors, and of course the OSSC solves the jail bar problem with its own LPF function.

From what I heard the OSSC doesn't have the zoom features the FM has, so that in itself will make me prefer the FM anyway. The beauty is only fully realized if I can perfectly fill every pixel on my TV.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:49 am 


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ElectricStriker wrote:
FBX wrote:
Have to have an OSSC if you want the cleanest and clearest picture with proper colors, and of course the OSSC solves the jail bar problem with its own LPF function.

From what I heard the OSSC doesn't have the zoom features the FM has, so that in itself will make me prefer the FM anyway. The beauty is only fully realized if I can perfectly fill every pixel on my TV.


But you can't do that without blurring the pixels. It's hard for people to let go of that need to fill the screen, but a little letterboxing makes a HUGE difference in picture quality by allowing the pixels to be perfectly nearest-neighbor sampled. On the FM, you can do this on the vertical axis with my profiles, but not on the horizontal. On the OSSC, you can perfectly sample both directions with optimal timing.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:50 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
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FBX wrote:

But you can't do that without blurring the pixels. It's hard for people to let go of that need to fill the screen, but a little letterboxing makes a HUGE difference in picture quality by allowing the pixels to be perfectly nearest-neighbor sampled. On the FM, you can do this on the vertical axis with my profiles, but not on the horizontal. On the OSSC, you can perfectly sample both directions with optimal timing.


The OSSC sounds awesome, but can you tell me:
- Are there any compatibility issues or known problems with the OSSC?
- How do I fix timing / resolution issues, if my TV doesn't display an image with the OSSC?
- What do I need to watch out for for any particular console / resolution or setup, when using the OSSC?


Many thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:48 am 


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lastbronx wrote:
FBX wrote:

But you can't do that without blurring the pixels. It's hard for people to let go of that need to fill the screen, but a little letterboxing makes a HUGE difference in picture quality by allowing the pixels to be perfectly nearest-neighbor sampled. On the FM, you can do this on the vertical axis with my profiles, but not on the horizontal. On the OSSC, you can perfectly sample both directions with optimal timing.


The OSSC sounds awesome, but can you tell me:
- Are there any compatibility issues or known problems with the OSSC?
- How do I fix timing / resolution issues, if my TV doesn't display an image with the OSSC?
- What do I need to watch out for for any particular console / resolution or setup, when using the OSSC?


Many thanks.


In other words you want me to effectively write a book for you. Sorry man, but the information is out there. Do some research.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:13 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
FBX wrote:
In other words you want me to effectively write a book for you. Sorry man, but the information is out there. Do some research.



Ouch!


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:19 am 


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lastbronx wrote:
FBX wrote:
In other words you want me to effectively write a book for you. Sorry man, but the information is out there. Do some research.



Ouch!


Here. Read through the info listed here:

https://www.videogameperfection.com/pro ... converter/

The quick start guide, wiki, etc, then read through this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52158&start=330

After you read up on things, that thread is also a good place to ask any lingering questions. Though, to be honest, everything you ask is answered between those two places 10x over. This topic isn’t even about the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:14 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
Thank you very much Ashura!
I will do some reading.
From what I understand so far the advantages of the OSSC over the Framemeister are better picture quality when using Component, no lag, higher res through 5x line doubling and a better low pass filter as well as perfect sampling of both directions with optimal timing.
However the lack of a proper deinterlacing mode for 480i content as well as no S-Video for my JAP Gamecube with GameBoy Player made me buy a Framemeister. That and the fact that the Framemeister is cheaper where I live (ASIA) than the OSSC. (with shipping and high import tax)

Regarding the SATURN, there is also an update:

I thought I give it one final shot to find "a magical SATURN" and picked up a SEGA SATURN JAP, model 1 HST-3200 for 12 $ without cables.
The motherboard looks brand new and the console made an overall unused impression.
AND I'm very happy to report I had SUCCESS! The Jailbars went down by at least 90%. They are so faint now, that the only game where you can slightly see them is PANZER DRAGOON 2.

I would rate them like this:
- Panzer Dragoon 2: 5-10% or less visible
- Last Bronx: 2-3% visible, only visible in solid colors if you really really really hunt for them. Honestly barely noticeable
- Virtua Fighter 2: Same as Last Bronx
- Street Fighter Alpha 3: 3-5% visible, but only in some colors and again you really have to hunt for them, barely noticeable

OVERALL this is a DRAMATIC improvment. Weather this is due to the fact, that this is a model 1 or has less dried out caps. The difference to my other Saturn is night and day. Also I do believe this model1 Saturn produces an even sharper image. The quality his stunning and especially 2D sprite games look emulated. It was impressive before, but it is noticeable sharper now. Maybe 15% sharper I would say.

I thought I share this for anyone who stumbles across this page. IT IS worth it to hunt down a Saturn to improve picture quality and get rid of the jailbars if you live in a region, where Saturns are cheap and have difficult access to the Retrovision cables.

Peace out!


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:00 pm 


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While the OSSC gives you more direct control over the LPF settings, the FM offers different LPF presets associated with the different picture presets. When you switch between the picture modes (e.g. between picture and standard and natural) you also get different LPF settings.

Have you done all your testings with the same picture preset on the FM ?


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:25 pm 


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Greetings all.

I'm not completely sure how I managed to even find this place, but I know I should have been here years ago. There is an abundant pool of knowledge in here, which I'm already grateful for being able to wade into. Just wanted to start off with a sincere expression of gratitude and appreciation.

I got an OSSC just recently. It has not arrived yet, but I intend to use it with one of my three Sega Saturn consoles (I modified one of them with a region switch more than several years ago). Having said this... I've got a few questions.

This will be the first time I have used RGB with any console. I got a Sync on Luma Cable from the UK based 'Retro Gaming Cables' shop. However, I'm not sure if this was the correct choice. Should I have purchased a CSYNC cable instead? Furthermore, what is a good price when it comes to these cables? In other words, how much do they usually sell for?


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:48 am 


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Sync on luma should be fine. You did not mention whether your Saturns are PAL or NTSC, but the PAL units do not output native csync so if you have that then luma is the best choice anyway. Csync cables with a built in sync stripper are not really recommended, they don't provide a benefit over sync on luma especially with the stripper in the SCART head. Native csync from the NTSC Saturn is technically better, but I doubt you would notice a difference in a decent luma sync cable.

In terms of cable price, there are three sellers around the world that I know of who are fairly well regarded, they are:

RGC which you have used,
Retro access in the USA,
thefoo.83, an eBay seller in Poland.

Check out the prices for yourself and compare, but usually it's best to just go with whoever is local to you.

If you have the skill and the patience, it can work out a lot cheaper to assemble your own cables. One good way is to acquire cheap VGA cables as they are shielded and normally good quality, cut the ends off and solder on the connectors you need. However, sourcing some of the unusual connectors (like the Saturn) can be a pain. Also while I enjoy modding generally, I personally find soldering cables to be quite an ordeal. I started out intending to do so where possible, but now I am pretty happy to just buy them and save myself the aggro.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:59 pm 


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Kez wrote:
Sync on luma should be fine. You did not mention whether your Saturns are PAL or NTSC, but the PAL units do not output native csync so if you have that then luma is the best choice anyway. Csync cables with a built in sync stripper are not really recommended, they don't provide a benefit over sync on luma especially with the stripper in the SCART head. Native csync from the NTSC Saturn is technically better, but I doubt you would notice a difference in a decent luma sync cable.

In terms of cable price, there are three sellers around the world that I know of who are fairly well regarded, they are:

RGC which you have used,
Retro access in the USA,
thefoo.83, an eBay seller in Poland.

Check out the prices for yourself and compare, but usually it's best to just go with whoever is local to you.

If you have the skill and the patience, it can work out a lot cheaper to assemble your own cables. One good way is to acquire cheap VGA cables as they are shielded and normally good quality, cut the ends off and solder on the connectors you need. However, sourcing some of the unusual connectors (like the Saturn) can be a pain. Also while I enjoy modding generally, I personally find soldering cables to be quite an ordeal. I started out intending to do so where possible, but now I am pretty happy to just buy them and save myself the aggro.


Thank you so much for the reply.

All three Saturn units are NTSC-U. One in particular is a launch model, purchased in June of '95. I've managed to hold on to it ever since... and it still works like new, which is something I never expected. Overall, this particular system has proved to be quite reliable (from my personal experience). Saturns seem to be fairly durable.

I'm going to investigate the other two cable merchants you've provided me with -- seems it also wouldn't be such a bad idea to start making my own, in the event that I'm able to finally complete a few other "lingering projects" on the agenda.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:38 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
Fudoh wrote:
While the OSSC gives you more direct control over the LPF settings, the FM offers different LPF presets associated with the different picture presets. When you switch between the picture modes (e.g. between picture and standard and natural) you also get different LPF settings.

Have you done all your testings with the same picture preset on the FM ?


Yes I did all the testing always on the Sega Saturn profile from FBX.

Which settings on the Framemeister have what kind of difference in LPF? Is there some info about this somewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:09 pm 


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Quote:
Which settings on the Framemeister have what kind of difference in LPF? Is there some info about this somewhere?

it's pretty obvious when you switch through the presets using the direct buttons on the remote. What the presets change are the deinterlacing mode (bob+interpolation to weave to motion adaptive), color saturation, noise filter (I think) and low pass filter. If you throw in a game that uses lots of dithering and you switch through the profiles you'll notice it very easily. "Standard" for example employs a stronger LPF setting which than "natural".


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:18 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Which settings on the Framemeister have what kind of difference in LPF? Is there some info about this somewhere?

it's pretty obvious when you switch through the presets using the direct buttons on the remote. What the presets change are the deinterlacing mode (bob+interpolation to weave to motion adaptive), color saturation, noise filter (I think) and low pass filter. If you throw in a game that uses lots of dithering and you switch through the profiles you'll notice it very easily. "Standard" for example employs a stronger LPF setting which than "natural".



I see. That's good to know, thanks.

Anyway the testing was done on the same profile with the same settings, same setup and cables.
The new model 1 JAP Saturn is at least 15%-20% sharper, very noticeable and has 90% to 97% jail-bar reduction.

Here is a link about the picture quality of model 1 Saturn's being better than model 2's:
http://retrorgb.com/saturncompare.html
I believe it now folks, haha.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:15 pm 


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lastbronx wrote:

Here is a link about the picture quality of model 1 Saturn's being better than model 2's:
http://retrorgb.com/saturncompare.html
I believe it now folks, haha.


At the time Bob did that comparison guide, the issue with Jail bars wasn't really a 'thing' yet that had become a known issue.

But at any rate, every model 1 Saturn I've tried has had terrible jail bars in the 352 and 704 modes. Granted, I still need to set aside time to do a full recap on my system, just to see if that helps.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:41 pm 


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You can replace the EMI filters on the output of a Model 2 Saturn to increase the sharpness of the image. Unfortunately this massively increases the jailbars too, but they are still filtered out completely using an OSSC.

I have replacement caps in the mail, so I can try taking some pictures of the jailbars before and after with LPF off on the OSSC, to see if that makes any difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:35 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
FBX wrote:

At the time Bob did that comparison guide, the issue with Jail bars wasn't really a 'thing' yet that had become a known issue.

But at any rate, every model 1 Saturn I've tried has had terrible jail bars in the 352 and 704 modes. Granted, I still need to set aside time to do a full recap on my system, just to see if that helps.



Yeah it's weird, one model-1 JAP I tested had very strong jailbars, the new one I got has basically no jailbars. The seller claimed, that this was his spare SATURN, which he never used so maybe the caps inside are still good. The board looks brand new and doesn't show any signs of abrasion, which I see on other old consoles I own.


@FBX and @Konsolkongen:
Yeah it would be great to find out if a full recap fixes the jailbars or has an impact on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:56 am 


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Recapped my friends Saturn model 2. This is not the fix for jailbars as we probably expected.

OSSC, generic 4:3, LPF off, 720p out:
Spoiler: show
Image


EDIT:
But don't feel too bad. These are the jailbars on my own model 2 (not recapped yet), where I replaced the EMI filters on the AV output. This produces MUCH worse jailbars, but a slightly sharper image. The OSSC completely eliminates them though, which is super impressive :)

Spoiler: show
Image


My model 2 with OSSC's LPF set to auto:
Spoiler: show
Image


Pretty much flawless, and could be even sharper had I enabled custom timing on the OSSC :O

EDIT2:

And I just recapped my own Saturn model 2 as well, and there is no difference. Just to rule out any doubt :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:37 am 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
Konsolkongen wrote:
Recapped my friends Saturn model 2. This is not the fix for jailbars as we probably expected.

And I just recapped my own Saturn model 2 as well, and there is no difference. Just to rule out any doubt :)


Thank you very much for this!
So we can rule that out. The mystery of the magical Saturn only deepens now haha.
The only thing I can say is, that the Saturn I've found, that has nearly no Jailbars is Model 01 HST-3200, NOT HST-3210.
Not sure if that matters. There are a lot of different Saturns floating around in Asia, some of them were made in Japan, some were made in Taiwan, some in Indonesia.

Image

Image

What is your experience with 480i content from the SATURN on the OSSC? Is there flicker? Is it properly deinterlaced?
I found two videos with problems, but not sure if the people are using the OSSC wrong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iShoYdGBRAw
Flicker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBEtDfryDTc


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:43 pm 


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lastbronx wrote:
What is your experience with 480i content from the SATURN on the OSSC? Is there flicker? Is it properly deinterlaced?
I found two videos with problems, but not sure if the people are using the OSSC wrong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iShoYdGBRAw
Flicker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBEtDfryDTc


The OSSC can only do a simple bob deinterlace, it will be flickery. You can either allow your display to handle the deinterlacing by sending it 480i or 960i, or use another scaler like a Framemeister if you play a lot of interlaced content.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:12 pm 


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I agree. The Framemeister does a tremendous job of deinterlacing video game content, which is the primary reason why I still have mine in my setup :)

The OSSC probably won't satisfy you if you plan on playing mainly 480i titles.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:58 pm 



Joined: 18 Sep 2018
Posts: 15
Thanks for the info. This was important for me to confirm.
I play plenty of 480i content via Gamecube (SWISS, don't have a component cable), Saturn and PS2.
Great thing I found a cheap Jailbar free Saturn now and a much cheaper Framemeister (~190$ like new, taxback). For everyone in Asia, this setup makes the most sense. Should be possible to hunt down a magical Saturn here for others.
I'm also very impressed with the deinterlacing of the Framemeister.


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