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 Post subject: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:29 pm 


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Joined: 03 Feb 2015
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Location: Manchester, UK
There's very little reference to this online but I'm sure some folks must have the same problem:

I get fairly mild but still really annoying jailbars when using my Sega Saturn in certain resolution output modes. They affect shades of brown and grey in particular - the first level of Panzer Dragoon Zwei is a shite, stripey mess.

For whatever reason, they appear in the Saturn's most commonly used output mode (352x224p?). This includes Sega Rally, Nights Into Dreams, Panzer Dragoon series, CPS2 conversions etc. It also seems to affect the high res interlaced games (VF2, Last Bronx, Athlete Kings etc. 704x408i?). However, I DON'T get jailbars with the Sega Ages arcade conversions (Afterburner, Outrun, Space Harrier, Galaxy Force 2 - 320x224p?). I also don't get it on the Action Replay cartridge's menu, or indeed the Saturn's "Home" system menu. Presumably this material is rendered at a slightly different resolution (320x224p vs 352x224p?).

The problem doesn't affect my Sony PVM, my old Trinitron CRT TVs or XRGB2+, but it does affect my Mini, XPC-4 and my LED TV. Weird.

I have now tried a Japanese Model 2 system and a Japanese Model 2 system, both with sync on composite, C-sync and Luma RGB scart cables (different brands), and I have the same problem with each combination. (Perhaps the Luma sync clean things up things very slightly).

This is now beginning to fry my brain, and I'm one step away from committing my Saturn to a fiery ritual sacrifice in the back garden. Surely some other folks must be having this problem? Here's a pic via my Framemeister:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:35 pm 


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Location: Bellingham, WA
It could be your tv is compressing the image from your framemeister. Do you have your TV on its +1 or full pixel mode?

Also in your visual set You could try trying the auto scaler off and turn the v scale down to "3 or 4" instead of "6"

Lines are cool but I have switched from 720p scan lines to 480p because my tvs interger scaler handles a 480p image much better than a 720 although there is noise on some corners of pixels. I like Turing the scan "A" line up till it almost goes away so my bright scenes and distant objects won't be all "scanny"

im just about to go to my man cave. I don't own panzer zwei but I got a killer collection of Saturn titles. Name another title you see jail bars and I'll take a pic of my framemeister running it for comparison.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:42 pm 


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Quote:
because my tvs interger scaler handles a 480p image much better than a 720

unfortunately the Mini's 480p output isn't very sharp. Even the XRGB-3 was considerably sharper at 480p than the FM is these days.

And to stay on topic: I got a Hitachi model 2 Saturn as well as the early Sega model 2 version (light grey compared to the brilliant white of the later models) and both are 100% jailbar free (through the Mini and otherwise).


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:35 pm 


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Yeah I really can't wrap my head around it. I get the same jailbars if I plug the scart lead directly into my LED tv, yet the output from both consoles to my PVM-14M4E is absolutely flawless - in fact nothing CRT based has had any issues with it whatsoever. I've played around with every conceivable setting on the Mini and on my displays and couldn't fix it. If I hit Skew I can make the jailbars roll from one side to the other, but I can't make them disappear. The XPC4's dot clock/ manual scaling settings were able to fix it (at the expense of scanlines), but the Mini seems a little less malleable. Maybe I've just been really unlucky in buying two models of Saturn with similar issues. Perhaps there's some sort of cutting-traces on the motherboard style hardware fix a-la the Neo Geo AES, but that'd take an awful lot of experimenting. I'm just surprised that so few people have run into the issue.

The really weird thing is how it only effects certain modes. Layer Section, my Sega Ages titles and KOF 97 are perfect, yet Sega Rally, Terra Diver, Street Fighter Alpha, Virtua Fighter 2 etc are a bit of a mess (as far as I can tell it's the somewhat higher resolution modes that are affected).

Are you folks using Euroscart or JP-21?


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:51 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
because my tvs interger scaler handles a 480p image much better than a 720

unfortunately the Mini's 480p output isn't very sharp. Even the XRGB-3 was considerably sharper at 480p than the FM is these days.

And to stay on topic: I got a Hitachi model 2 Saturn as well as the early Sega model 2 version (light grey compared to the brilliant white of the later models) and both are 100% jailbar free (through the Mini and otherwise).


True that, but my tastes have changed and each console has its own quirks.

Im plating an OG psx with RGB cable

Notice the first image is 1080p with no vertical offset. (notice the lines in the rubble disappear at an expense of pixel sharpness.)

The second image is 480p with v scale set to 4.

1080p normal:

Image

480p vertical offset:

Image

to be honest, Its a been a love hate relationship with my MINI so far
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:11 pm 


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Das Muel wrote:

Are you folks using Euroscart or JP-21?


I use Euroscart because its easier to find and shares the same cable in a different pin out.

I do think its either a setting on your tv viewable area or you got two bad japanese model SS's (unlikely)

Here is my Virtua Fighter 2 (Clean as a whistle)

Image
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:03 pm 


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Hoagtech, sorry to say, but your TV sucks terribly at upscaling 480p content.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:17 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Hoagtech, sorry to say, but your TV sucks terribly at upscaling 480p content.


Based on rtings reviews or your own similar TV?

I don't like playing my 32 bit consoles on 1080p because my 2d art gets blocked out, I guess its my eyes.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:40 pm 


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what tv model do you have ?

Do you really prefer V_SCALER set to 4 ? Point of not choosing one of the video-optimized scaling factors is not to get any unneccessary interpolation (and bleeding) during upscaling.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:10 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
what tv model do you have ?

Do you really prefer V_SCALER set to 4 ? Point of not choosing one of the video-optimized scaling factors is not to get any unneccessary interpolation (and bleeding) during upscaling.


Not on my NES, Genesis, SNES, or I feel the sharp pixels with less noise are more desireable

But later generation consoles wih SCART:

My saturn, Psx, Dreamcast, n64, or 3dO, I would prefer the video scaling modes and there "ringing" because it smooths over my low res 2d backdrops in my 4th wall games like Resident Evil, final fantasy 7+, Myst, Code Veronica, Im able to pick up image details that were intended to be seen through interlacing through a progressive signal.

and even when I offset Vscale in 720p or 1080p there is a mix of pixelation and smudging. It looks better in 480p to me in that instance.

But I would never do that to my NES because the pixelation is more pronounced and intended and I wouldn't want to see the noise on my pixels.
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:13 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
what tv model do you have ?
.


65W950b Sony
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:43 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:

Do you really prefer V_SCALER set to 4 ?


Here's an example of what I mean good sir.

Were looking at 1080p default vs 1080p Vscale 4, 720p Vscale 4, and my fave 480p Vscale 4.

We will use clouds face as an example:

1080p VScale 6 (default) :

Image


1080P Vscale 4:

Image

720p Vscale 4 (gross):

Image

480p Vscale 4:

Image
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:47 pm 


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Location: East Coast, US
Das Muel, I have the same jailbars with my Japanese "Ain't it Cool" Saturn. Enabling the low pass filter on the XRGB-3 cleans it right up.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:00 am 


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Quote:
and my fave 480p Vscale 4.

amazing that you would prefer that.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:52 am 


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SGGG2 wrote:
Das Muel, I have the same jailbars with my Japanese "Ain't it Cool" Saturn. Enabling the low pass filter on the XRGB-3 cleans it right up.


Thanks, Man. The low-pass filter does mask the jailbars to some extent, but the loss of detail's pretty severe. Looks kind of like smearing a layer of vaseline over the textures.

I'm gonna try a Scart cable which is wired specifically for NTSC Saturns (it's never been a problem for me before, but the AV pinout is actually slightly different to PAL models) and also has better shielding (according to the seller).

In all fairness, the Mini's given me excellent results for all my other consoles and seeing as the problem also affects my LED TV and my XPC-4, I'm not saying it's the Mini's 'fault' per se. However, I'll keep on using the PVM for my Saturn and possibly PS1 in the meantime as the mode switching is already a little problematic with both of these consoles. The new Scart should be here in a few days so I'll post the results. My never-ending quest to get all my retro hooked-up to a single display continues...


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:29 am 


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The LPF on the XRGB looks really good with 240p content, sorry to hear it's not so great on the Mini.

I seriously doubt the cable's the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:34 am 


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So do I, but I'm out of ideas and it's the last thing I haven't tried.

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4236.0


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:50 pm 



Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 390
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hoagtech wrote:
480p Vscale 4:

Brings my thoughts to Koch Media's awful Blu-Ray release of Gulliver's Travels.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0& ... 67&i=8&l=0


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:29 pm 



Joined: 18 Apr 2013
Posts: 112
Location: London
SGGG2 wrote:
Das Muel, I have the same jailbars with my Japanese "Ain't it Cool" Saturn. Enabling the low pass filter on the XRGB-3 cleans it right up.


Same here but with pc crt and xrgb 1.
Damn jailbars!


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:47 pm 


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I finally managed to rid my Mega Drive of its jailbars a few days ago and now this pops up. This shit's like playing Whack-a-mole sometimes.

Mine worked fine with my XRGB2+ (when I still had it).


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:26 pm 


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Hoagtech wrote:
Here's an example of what I mean good sir.

Were looking at 1080p default vs 1080p Vscale 4, 720p Vscale 4, and my fave 480p Vscale 4.

We will use clouds face as an example:

*snip*



I'm utterly baffled. You spent $300 on a video processor and that's your preferred setting? You could've bought a cheap LCD for less, and it would have smeared the picture just as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:15 pm 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 322
bobrocks95 wrote:
Hoagtech wrote:
Here's an example of what I mean good sir.

Were looking at 1080p default vs 1080p Vscale 4, 720p Vscale 4, and my fave 480p Vscale 4.

We will use clouds face as an example:

*snip*



I'm utterly baffled. You spent $300 on a video processor and that's your preferred setting? You could've bought a cheap LCD for less, and it would have smeared the picture just as much.


Yeah. I mean people like what they like, but wouldn't a composite connection direct from console to TV give about the same results?


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:16 am 


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That's maybe what he's trying to emulate if he remembers it that way, except without all the other composite problems.

Peoples tastes do vary, at the other end of the scale, I've been really surprised how many people like the whole "sharp pixels" thing in the HDMI N64, for instance. It looks way too over sharpened on most games, in my opinion.

Das Muel can you post your Saturns serial number, out of interest?
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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:22 am 


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Location: Manchester, UK
B7D007635 (HK/Singapore, White)
B50166132 (JP, Grey)

Jailbars are slightly more pronounced on the white model.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:12 am 


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I just rolled back the firmware a couple of times. With 1.01 my jailbars are completely gone, performance seems quite a lot more stable across the board in terms of sync dropouts/stuttering etc and bright flashes are no longer a problem. However I can no longer save/load profiles, my scanlines are limited to Meister mode (with LPF) and I have no 50hz support. The £5 Trinitron I saw on Gumtree yesterday is looking very tempting.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:05 pm 


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If you want to narrow it down, try 1.05 or 1.07a. There was a change between these two which introduced a certain sensibility to HF noise. Maybe that was related.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:39 pm 


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Yeah, it seems to be when they introduced the adjustable sync level. Unfortunately that's also when they introduced 50hz support. 1.05 is perfect with my Saturn, but I can't use my PAL PS2/PS1. 1.06 gives me mild jailbars.


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:03 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2016
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First of all, I have to say: It was really a challenge to register here, because i needed several tries to input that real hard captcha...
It felt like colorblinded...

Please excuse my bad english, I'm german.

I have to say, that I've got the same problem as Das Muel describes it in his first post.
I don't own a XRGB and I have connected my PAL Saturn Model 1 ("MAIN VA PAL SD 837-12135") via (i think original, not fully 21-Pin) RGB Scart Cable to my old Toshiba 46XF351P. That TV has some issues with vertical lines at the borders in 16:9, but in 4:3 mode it works perfect.
My Saturn is hardmodded (soldering) to display permanently 60 Hz (used SW4).
It is also permanently regionmodded to JAP, so I can use the Pro Universal Adapter that I originally got with a grey japanese Saturn some years ago. Without that mod it says that the cartridge is not usable on the system.

As I told, I have the same problems as Das Muel did have.
Panzer Dragoon Zwei looks really shitty because of the jailbars. Most of the games I own do have these issues, but SEGA Ages (Space Harrier, Outrun, After Burner) looks really great!
No Jailbars, sharp, perfect colors! Also the title screen of the Pro Universal Adapter and the Saturn system menu do not have any issues.

I did try to add a sync stripper as described here:
http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/composite-syn ... er-lm1881/

It did not work correctly. I got a picture, but sometimes it used to jump left and right and the jailbars did not disappear at all! Seemed if VSync was missing, but it did not help to solder a connection from the vsync to csync and so I removed that sync stripper at the end.

So I tried to hook up the Saturn over Composite only - works and the jailbars are gone, but it's only a blurry, on some points flickering image with unrealistic colors. So no option for me...

So how do I get rid of these jailbars without buying an expensive XRGB?

It seems as if the TV can't switch to RGB without overlaying the whole composite signal which causes interferences that produce the jailbars.
I saw Scart Pinouts (e.g. in the link above) that show that every color also must have a ground pin which is not availabe on my (I think original) RGB Scart Cable.
So I was thinking about buying a 21 pin cable like that: http://www.ebay.de/itm/191658415234?_tr ... EBIDX%3AIT

If it also does not have ground connected with the needed pins, it would be easy to solder it, I think.
And if it then also only produces jailbars, even if I give the sync stripper another try, then I would take the next step an buy something like that: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0092IA ... _pC_nS_ttl and hope, that the signal via HDMI becomes clear in the end.

I also read, that some Saturns (like mine) produce more jailbars and some don't.

What do you think?

Edit: I bought another cable from Ebay. It has 21 pins, but they're not all wired. So there is also no ground for R, G and B.
I tried that cable with the same results - jailbars...
So this time I took the Saturn out of my gaming room, bringing it into my living room and hooking it up to my Sony 48R550C and the Sony shows really no jailbars!
Also the picture is perfectly centered, filling the Screen from the bottom to the top and everything is visible, while my Toshiba cuts some lines left and right.
Then I tried it with my old Philips 27" LCD in my bedroom. Also no jailbars, but the picture is not centered and does not fill the entire distance from bottom to top.

So it seems to be very depending on which TV you use...
I don't want to put the Saturn and all games into my living room, because I got that gaming room with an old, big LCD for it.
I will try to solder the ground contacts for each RGB onto the right pins and will look if it helps to tell my Toshiba that it has to use only RGB mode without overlaying a composite picture.

But until now, I still also don't understand why some games produce some jailbars, some produce really heavy jailbars (Panzer Dragoon Zwei) and some even don't (SEGA Ages)!


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:18 am 



Joined: 28 Nov 2012
Posts: 66
Location: USA
Hi Guys
I also just pulled out my Saturn for the first time in a while, and I'm also getting the jailbars with 2 different Saturns (Japanese launch unit and a USA model 1)
I never got these before, but this is the first time that I've used the Saturn since I upgraded the Framemeister firmware

For reference I'm using a Japanese Saturn JP21 RGB cable that I got in Japan connected to the XRGB-M

Did anyone ever figure out a solution?


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 Post subject: Re: Sega Saturn Jailbars
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:23 am 



Joined: 28 Nov 2012
Posts: 66
Location: USA
went ahead and went back to an old firmware, no more jailbars. But also missing out on the added features the newer FW adds.
Man, this really sucks. Thinking about having 2 micro SD cards at the ready. 1 for when I'm playing Saturn, 1 for everything else.
Uggh.


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