shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:08 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2867 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 96  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 540
Location: USA
leonk wrote:
All parts are here, and ready to do the mod .. just figuring out the attack plan now. I'm sure many of you would be in the same boat. The big problem I see is that all the standard stock connectors are part of the chassis. The case actually has nothing on it. So when I install the switch and SCART connector on the case, I'll need to come up with a solution to "quick disconnect" the case from the chassis (for future service).

That being said, we're talking about a pretty HEFTY quick discount!! Here are all the wires as far as I see it:

original red from OSD (to switch)
original green from OSD (to switch)
original blue from OSD (to switch)
original blanking pin from OSD (to switch)
red output from switch
green output from switch
blue output from switch
blanking output from switch (5V or tie to original blanking)
SYNC (into composite video on chassis)
AUDIO LEFT (into white port on chassis)
AUDIO RIGHT (into red port on chassis)
GROUND

That's a total of 12 wires! Any suggestions on how to reduce this, or am I stuck? If I can reduce it to 9 pins, I was going to use DB9 male/female ports with proper plastic shielding, but at this point I'm not crazy about DB25!


Quick Connects.

Image

And More Quick Connects.

Image
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/voultar
http://www.voultar.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:22 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1209
I have a 14" Samsung Techwin 700 line S-video monitor that was given to me.

i could use another small rgb monitor though.

It is Composite and s-video only.

Its probably just some sort of s-video converter IC in there right?

i couldnt find any service info on it and am trying to figure out if its worth messing with.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:42 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 2333
Location: Kentucky
mvsfan wrote:
I have a 14" Samsung Techwin 700 line S-video monitor that was given to me.

i could use another small rgb monitor though.

It is Composite and s-video only.

Its probably just some sort of s-video converter IC in there right?

i couldnt find any service info on it and am trying to figure out if its worth messing with.


If you can't find any sort of datasheets or can't identify any ICs on the board as being what you're looking for, then I doubt anybody else could.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:43 am 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
mvsfan wrote:
I have a 14" Samsung Techwin 700 line S-video monitor that was given to me.

i could use another small rgb monitor though.

It is Composite and s-video only.

Its probably just some sort of s-video converter IC in there right?

i couldnt find any service info on it and am trying to figure out if its worth messing with.


Open it up and locate the jungle IC. Search for the part number printed on it, if it's something like ZN76814 try searching just 76814 datasheet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:08 am 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 322
Voultar wrote:
It looks like this chip is the endpoint between your signals and the neckbeard.

Best typo or autocorrect ever. :D

Sorry, couldn't resist.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:27 am 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 580
Location: San Jose, CA
Ever since it got typo'd to "neckbeard" on IRC, it stuck as being obviously the best term.
_________________
Making Gimmick! exAct * Mix
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 540
Location: USA
It was never a typo. ;)
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/voultar
http://www.voultar.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:08 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 360
So I have an old GE/RCA 19" that accepts only Composite, but the case has a marking on the back for S-Video (I presume for a higher end model).
I've had this since 1992 and am thinking of taking it and several other electronic things to a recycle facility soon. Of course finding service information for this TV is impossible there is no information that exists.

Also have another old 27" Symphonic (From about 2000) that also only accepts Composite.

I have the remote for neither, the Symphonic needs it to switch to the AV inputs, and on both the solder joints on all the RCA jacks have become broken making proper connection a pain in the ass.

They've both been sitting around collecting dust for years. I used the GE to play some Genesis games a few years ago and that just reminded me of how bad the composite was on that system hah. I also used it to play GCN games ...about 5 years ago.


If they have compatible ICs do you think this'd probably be a worthwhile thing to give them a new life (And maybe re-homed instead?) instead of being recycled?

I haven't soldered in ages and I don't have the equipment anymore so i'd have to buy all that wazoo. (Probably should since there's another project I need to work on. Replacing the 3.5mm audio socket on a headphone DSP I have that I once ripped out while repairing it for fun because I thought i'd never need the headphone socket... heh)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:48 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 14452
Location: Chicago
North Americans finally getting RGB. Where was this info 10 years ago? I seriously applaud you guys. I'm far too scared to get electrocuted (I barely opened my PVM) to do this, and don't have the space, but it does make me want one. :D
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
New PowerPuff Girls. They all have evil pornstart eyelashes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 1654
GaijinPunch wrote:
North Americans finally getting RGB.


Yeah, it's weird that only now are we figuring this out, 10 years after they stopped making CRT's.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:37 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 2333
Location: Kentucky
Was it possible to find service manuals that readily 10 years ago? They cost a lot and you probably had to be certified in some way if you wanted to buy one. That would be a good explanation.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:55 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 580
Location: San Jose, CA
The idea isn't extremely new, and I'm certainly not the first to do it. There is not a lot written about it online, though, so that's why I wanted to create a thread.
_________________
Making Gimmick! exAct * Mix
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:01 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 14452
Location: Chicago
mikejmoffitt wrote:
The idea isn't extremely new, and I'm certainly not the first to do it. There is not a lot written about it online, though, so that's why I wanted to create a thread.


I remember talk about it here a while back... pretty sure I had moved back to Japan by then and had a Trinitron with AV-Multi so didn't follow it that much. You would think Sony would have tried something when the Playstation came out. I mean... shit... they made the fucking TVs. :)
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
New PowerPuff Girls. They all have evil pornstart eyelashes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:56 am 



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 50
Ive been trying to get RGB on a toshiba tv and I have the RGB inputs lifted from the pcb and the blank pin tied to 5v but its not working. I get a green picture thats scrolling but no graphics. Maybe my ic is digital RGB levels or YUV colorspace not sure?

TV service mauel schimatic
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/958566 ... =18#manual

IC with RGB in that we are tapping.
http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/2 ... 283FP.html

Anyone know how to tell if the inputs are analog like we need and if they're using RGB or YUV


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:48 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
Finally got around to complete this project. The surgery was done on a 2003 Sony 27FS100 .. what a great CRT.

progress pictures:

Image

Image

The quick connects I decided to use is DB15. The 75 ohm and 0.1uF caps were all installed on the female SCART port. The 4PDT switch was installed with composite video down, RGB up. Composite video and audio left / audio right were fed into Video 3 / composite input.

Image

Image

End results / what I discovered:

Because I use mostly composite video for sync, if I don't feed 5V via SCART connector, the TV just thinks regular composite video is being fed in. This is a great A/B test as one can quickly see the difference in quality just by flicking the switch. This TV allows you to set color temperature, brightness, etc. All these pictures settings effect RGB! So set desirable settings in composite mode, and then switch to RGB to play.

Sega Genesis model 1 csync / sync booster SCART cable:

Image

Image

This system just shines in RGB on this TV. The best picture I've seen. Equivalent in every way to my 20" PVM.

Nintendo SNES mini with RGB amp:

Image

Exact same color and brightness as composite video. Much cleaner picture.

NESRGB in my Top Loader (using exact same sync on composite video cable as the SNES):


This is where I run into trouble. This is what it looks in regular composite video from NESRGB:

Image

Now same picture in RGB:

Image

Yes, it actually does look "darker".

SMB3 world 1 level 1 shows the issue best:

Image

Notice how much darker everything is. Also, the sky doesn't have uniform color. That white bloom is actually there! The other thing I noticed is "noise" in the picture. Diagonal lines of "noise" every few pixels apart, across the entire picture. Especially visible in the solid colors. Very hard to photograph, but if you look at the big "Mario Bros" title screen, you can clearly see it in the blue text.

This system looks and acts perfectly on my PVM .. I play it every day and never an issue.

2/13/2015: The issue is the cable. The diagonal lines are there in the SNES image above as well. When one uses CSYNC cables instead of sync on composite video, all the problems go away.


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:22 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
UPDATE:

I switched my composite video from V to CS# on NESRGB and all the problems went away!

Image

Image

I can confirm that it is RGB, and looks AMAZING. If I switch to comp video input, the video goes away but audio remains.

2/13/2015: ignore the picture shift to the right. I was playing around in the service menu and forgot to correct it.


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:55 pm 



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 50
Nice work leonk. Got mine going yesterday as well and am happy with the results. Had to terminate with 100ohm instead of 75 to get the brightness up. Other than that nothing out of the usual.

http://imgur.com/a/FzNr7

Edit: You can check out the work flow log in the link below if you are interested.

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... d_toshiba/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:50 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 540
Location: USA
darknezz19 wrote:
Nice work leonk. Got mine going yesterday as well and am happy with the results. Had to terminate with 100ohm instead of 75 to get the brightness up. Other than that nothing out of the usual.


Did you not put couple caps on your terminations? If you don't restore the black level, you're not going to have a purdy picture.

100 ohm resistors won't match the impedance of your 75ohm load vidya signals.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/voultar
http://www.voultar.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:23 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
Hey Voultar, how do you connect your NESRGB to your RGB modded NES? CSYNC? Any issues? cropping?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:22 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 540
Location: USA
leonk wrote:
Hey Voultar, how do you connect your NESRGB to your RGB modded NES? CSYNC? Any issues? cropping?



Composite Sync all the way.

I can see Composite Video or Luma creating some line delay that will cause a slight horizontal shift.

Keep in mind. Composite Video, and S-Video go through several post processing filters, such as comb for example.

RGB doesn't, and that in itself will produce a line delay, depending on how the jungle handles it. You can have a slight horizontal shift (typically in the east direction).
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/voultar
http://www.voultar.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:12 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
UPDATE:

- Next, tried my TG16 with Tim's AV-Driver in it. Uses composite sync:

Image

Image

Just perfect. Notice no jail bars, perfect saturation. This thing is a dream.

But I did notice something, and confirmed it with all other sources. The menu system is still visible!!! I use 5V source from the console. When I press MENU, nothing is visible except for a faint shadow of the menu - I can almost make it out. On black screen, the shadow reads "Video 3!!"

Only way I think this can happen is if the original blanking pin is cross talking somehow! But the only way they come close to one another is in the switch. Bad switch!?


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:11 am 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 580
Location: San Jose, CA
The MCU's 5V blanking output is influencing the line a tiny bit still. There are actually two OSD Y outputs on the MCU. One is for solid areas, and one is for "outlines". That may be related, and you can try taking both out of circuit. It's kind of handy to have the menu noise there if you need to use it.

If you use S-video input for composite sync you might have your horizontal shift solved. Otherwise, the service menu will help you.
_________________
Making Gimmick! exAct * Mix
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:22 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
...


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:53 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 540
Location: USA
You have a nice sync input right on the Jungle I/C. Try terminating sync (with a 75 ohm load) directly to the sync input pin on the Jungle I/C.

Composite Video and Luma go through a couple of processes before the signal's handed off. This is the culprit for line day. Terminating your sync source (properly) directly to the Jungle I/C should mitigate that horizontal phase delay.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/voultar
http://www.voultar.com


Last edited by Voultar on Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:50 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
ARGGGG .. I'm a dummy. I finally figured it out. :)

- all my Sega Genesis consoles are CSYNC with Sync booster - works great
- my TG16 is CSYNC - works great
- my PS2 is sync on luma (being fed into composite video port) - works great
- my Nintendo multiAV plug is composite video sync - TROUBLE
--> on SNES and N64 it looks great, but there is some diagonal noise (the video!)
--> on NESRGB, you get issues with too dark picture, noise, blooming - again, composite video

When I switched my NESRGB to composite sync / csync, it cleaned up, but was pushed to the right. But then I noticed ALL consoles were pushed to the right. And then I remembered! I changed HPOS service menu option when I first got the TV! I restored it to factory setting and all is perfect.

I'm finally done with this thing! Moral of the story: RGB modded TV (especially these Sony Trinitron) require CSYNC. Sync on composite video will not work.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:30 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 580
Location: San Jose, CA
leonk wrote:
I'm finally done with this thing! Moral of the story: RGB modded TV (especially these Sony Trinitron) require CSYNC. Sync on composite video will not work.


Whoa whoa, let's not just say stuff - in the past, this used to be what all the cool kids did. It certainly works for me, though I prefer composite sync always. That said, it's good that you resolved your issues by using C-Sync.
_________________
Making Gimmick! exAct * Mix
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:56 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
mikejmoffitt wrote:
leonk wrote:
I'm finally done with this thing! Moral of the story: RGB modded TV (especially these Sony Trinitron) require CSYNC. Sync on composite video will not work.


Whoa whoa, let's not just say stuff - in the past, this used to be what all the cool kids did. It certainly works for me, though I prefer composite sync always. That said, it's good that you resolved your issues by using C-Sync.


We have the exact same TV! ;)

With composite video sync, the snes and n64 shows diagonal noise is solid colors. With csync it doesn't.

Have you noticed this?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:42 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 580
Location: San Jose, CA
I realized I'd confused the TV from my CL searches with the TV in my post. I have a KV-27FS42, which I think is one generation different. That said, things are very similar. I was about to get an FS100 but then I decided to bring my television from home and forewent the search.

I have no diagonal noise in my video with composite video as a sync source.
_________________
Making Gimmick! exAct * Mix
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:50 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 540
Location: USA
leonk wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
leonk wrote:
I'm finally done with this thing! Moral of the story: RGB modded TV (especially these Sony Trinitron) require CSYNC. Sync on composite video will not work.


Whoa whoa, let's not just say stuff - in the past, this used to be what all the cool kids did. It certainly works for me, though I prefer composite sync always. That said, it's good that you resolved your issues by using C-Sync.


We have the exact same TV! ;)

With composite video sync, the snes and n64 shows diagonal noise is solid colors. With csync it doesn't.

Have you noticed this?



The diagonal lines you refer to are a result of chroma data bleed in your sync source. Remarkably common. Using luma or composite sync will 100% remedy that.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/voultar
http://www.voultar.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:36 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
leonk wrote:
I'm finally done with this thing! Moral of the story: RGB modded TV (especially these Sony Trinitron) require CSYNC. Sync on composite video will not work.


I didn't have any trouble with sync on composite video on my Zenith, using the cheapo Chinese SCART cables for PS1 and Nintendo multi-out. It could be a problem with your SCART cable. One of mine was wired improperly with an open ground.

Also make sure you are grabbing the correct pin for composite video (one is input and one is output, I can't recall which one was correct in my situation and maybe some SCART cables are inconsistent on for whom we're asking input vs output anyway). I saw a similar problem to yours with the diagonal lines and color bleeding, and then I reversed it and that solved the problem.

EDIT: Now that I've tried this on a Trinitron, the diagonal lines on composite video sync are definitely an issue with Trinitrons, probably from the comb filter. Also regardless of composite sync or composite video, there is a large horizontal picture shift introduced by the comb filter. Those problems both go away by putting the sync into Y instead of a composite input.

EDIT 2: Never mind, I get the weird diagonal lines on Y too (but I'm leaving it there for the horizontal shift fix.) I must have been missing a wire because I'm sure that I did see a good RGB picture from my composite video sync cable when I was testing with Y earlier, but now that it's all put together, only a composite sync will do.


Last edited by tjsynkral on Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2867 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 96  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group