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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:09 am 


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I finally got together with the TV tech tonight and I'm happy to report the KV-27S42 was successfully modded. Amazingly, it worked on the first try! Huge props to everyone for the great information here and thanks to MarkOZLAD for answering my questions. I posted a small gallery on imgur here, including an updated diagram of some of the things I was questioning.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:17 pm 



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nakedarthur wrote:
I finally got together with the TV tech tonight and I'm happy to report the KV-27S42 was successfully modded. Amazingly, it worked on the first try! Huge props to everyone for the great information here and thanks to MarkOZLAD for answering my questions. I posted a small gallery on imgur here, including an updated diagram of some of the things I was questioning.


Glad it worked. Pleased to help.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:20 pm 


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I ran into one slight hitch after getting the TV into my setup. Genesis, SNES, PS1, Saturn, PC Engine, and even my GroovyMAME machine all work perfectly, but having a little trouble with my NESRGB. It has one of the 3d printed ports with the SNES style connectors, so I got one of retro_console_accessories pro coaxial SNES cables for it. It worked fine on my previous setup, but with the modded TV I'm getting a very dim pictures in bright scenes. Strangely, it seems to work perfectly on the darker ones..

Edit: Looks like SNES cables have 220uf capacitors in line, guessing that's not playing too well with the other caps..

Edit2: Removed the 220uf caps from the Scart head but it still looks the same..

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:36 pm 


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For nes rgb cables make sure there are no components inline. Nothing but wires. All resistors, terminations and caps are in the NES.

That picture has me stumped tho. Maybe Tim has seen it before.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:41 pm 


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Syntax wrote:
For nes rgb cables make sure there are no components inline. Nothing but wires. All resistors, terminations and caps are in the NES.

That picture has me stumped tho. Maybe Tim has seen it before.


Thanks for the info. As far as I can tell everything has been removed on the SCART side, but I'm not sure what she has in the mutli-connector side. Is there any way to open those without destroying them? I was just looking at this page on Tim's site and it says to remove 75ohm resistors from SNES cables. I'm guessing if it has those they must be on the multi-connector side? I'm thinking I might just put the caps back in and see if I can get her to send me another cable with nothing inline haha..


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:53 am 



Joined: 12 Jun 2017
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you can try using the composite out of the NESRGB since it's encoded from RGB and it's only 1 wire.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:02 am 


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I succesfully completed this mod on a Sharp 27sc260 tv. It already had component and it looked good with the retrotek RGB to component converter but I was curious to see what RGB looked like on the TV. There is a definite difference in color but I imagine I could've done some service menu tweaks to get the component colors looking close or even identical to RGB. Here's a few comparison pics.

Rgb on the top, Component on bottom. It looks like there's some jailbars there but that's just the camera.

Spoiler: show
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:44 pm 


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The NES RGB problem shown in that picture is a result of the image being shifted far left. As a result, the overscan border color (blue, in the case of the Super Mario Bros sky) is being used as the clamping level for black. The TV subtracts the black level sample from the rest of the line, so if your black level has image data there you'll get strange color subtraction effects in the line. You need to use the service menu to shift the image right, or change the clamping delay. If you have other inputs to try like S-video or Component, try using those for sync.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:59 pm 


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mikejmoffitt wrote:
The NES RGB problem shown in that picture is a result of the image being shifted far left. As a result, the overscan border color (blue, in the case of the Super Mario Bros sky) is being used as the clamping level for black. The TV subtracts the black level sample from the rest of the line, so if your black level has image data there you'll get strange color subtraction effects in the line. You need to use the service menu to shift the image right, or change the clamping delay. If you have other inputs to try like S-video or Component, try using those for sync.


Damn, that sucks! I already have HPOS as far as it will go right (0). I guess I will look into using S-video instead of Composite for sync then. It was bothering me anyway to be honest, the picture still seemed about 3/4 inch too far left even after the max adjustment. Thanks a bunch for the info!


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:12 am 



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nakedarthur wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
The NES RGB problem shown in that picture is a result of the image being shifted far left. As a result, the overscan border color (blue, in the case of the Super Mario Bros sky) is being used as the clamping level for black. The TV subtracts the black level sample from the rest of the line, so if your black level has image data there you'll get strange color subtraction effects in the line. You need to use the service menu to shift the image right, or change the clamping delay. If you have other inputs to try like S-video or Component, try using those for sync.


Damn, that sucks! I already have HPOS as far as it will go right (0). I guess I will look into using S-video instead of Composite for sync then. It was bothering me anyway to be honest, the picture still seemed about 3/4 inch too far left even after the max adjustment. Thanks a bunch for the info!


Out of interest, how is the horizontal position for the other consoles?
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:42 am 


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MarkOZLAD wrote:
Out of interest, how is the horizontal position for the other consoles?


It's definitely a little too far left even with it at zero. Looking at the Genesis grid in 240p Test Suite I could see just outside of the overscan area on the right, and it was near the inside edge of the overscan for the left side. It's not too terrible but in Lightening Force for example, if I move my ship as far as it will go to the left side of the screen I could maybe only see like a quarter of it.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:53 am 


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Had a tricky one today.
LG Flatron.

It seemed to have provision for scart but many components missing and jungle RGB input lines and blanking grounded.

Wired the set like normal and blanking was doing nothing.
Checked the service menu and enabled scart and bam rgb.
But it seemed blanking did not need power. If grounded my rgb injection would stop and if left floating "high" the rgb would blank.
Issue is if I leave it floating no other video inputs can be used till scart is turned off in service.

I didn't want a switch for it so I pulled out a 10k pot and wired it like "5v-blank-ground" turned to full resistance then turned on the set and swept the pot till my RGB picture came through over the comp one.

So the aim was to find out how low I had to pull the blanking pin before blanking would stop and increase the pot till it just blanked,( mainly because i could not find data on what the jungle expects so lowest volts is best) read the pots values and remake it with resistors.

The values I ended up with were
ground - 2.5k - blanking - 7.5k - console 5v

Works as it should now. Unplug it and watch tv or use composite, which I will do neither of.. I just like things to work as expected.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:02 am 


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Just finished another tricky one
Sony Trinitron
If you cut the blanking and let it float you get RGB blanking but with the menu VIDEO 1 on screen also.
If you apply voltage at around 3v it changes to composite.
But if you ground blanking you get RGB without the OSD always displaying the channel number :)

EDIT Grounding blanking makes the OSD barely visable but stops the TV from turning on ffs..


Update
Ok so I figured out the bloody thing.
Sony CXA2139S 
Around 3v or more to the ext blanking pin turns on RGB.
Pressing DISPLAY on the remote removes the OSD..
Seriously WTF?
Why would Sony make it so every time you turn on the TV you have to press DISPLAY on the remote to make the OSD piss off?
If you didn't have a remote you'd be screwed.

Funny thing to note, Ive been getting confused between RGB and composite today on a few tvs and I finally figured out why.
I'm using an old SNES to test not my Famicon Jr.

The difference in RGB quality on these 2 consoles is night and day.
To my eye an old SNES looks closer to composite than it does RGB due to the blur

Sweet picture tho :)


Last edited by Syntax on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:51 am 



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 629
Syntax wrote:
Had a tricky one today.
LG Flatron.

It seemed to have provision for scart but many components missing and jungle RGB input lines and blanking grounded.

Wired the set like normal and blanking was doing nothing.
Checked the service menu and enabled scart and bam rgb.
But it seemed blanking did not need power. If grounded my rgb injection would stop and if left floating "high" the rgb would blank.
Issue is if I leave it floating no other video inputs can be used till scart is turned off in service.

I didn't want a switch for it so I pulled out a 10k pot and wired it like "5v-blank-ground" turned to full resistance then turned on the set and swept the pot till my RGB picture came through over the comp one.

So the aim was to find out how low I had to pull the blanking pin before blanking would stop and increase the pot till it just blanked,( mainly because i could not find data on what the jungle expects so lowest volts is best) read the pots values and remake it with resistors.

The values I ended up with were
ground - 2.5k - blanking - 7.5k - console 5v

Works as it should now. Unplug it and watch tv or use composite, which I will do neither of.. I just like things to work as expected.


Was the jungle in this one a VCT49xyl? Chassis MC-049a?
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 am 


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Nope it was a Philips TDA9361.
The TV is actually brand new, I had to take it out of the box today. Cost a neat $20.
The composite on it is so clean I have to look twice to tell it apart from the new RGB input.

Still having issues with this Sony jungle refusing to remove the OSD from picture.
http://www.datasheetbank.com/datasheet/ ... 2139S.html

EDIT - All sorted :)


Last edited by Syntax on Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:14 pm 


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Finished up today on a cool old Philips set I found at the tip.
It was rusty and full of mud and worms but the speakers sound great and the picture was nice.
Had to OSD hack this one as there was no external RGB input.
Jungle was a Philips TDA8361 http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-p ... A8361.html

The blanking required sweeping a 10k pot with ground and 5v, wouldn't work with just 5v across a 10k pot.
End result was 2x2.4k resistors as a voltage divider to the blanking. would of been sitting around 3v I never checked.

3 tv's finished in a day I think I should sleep..

Image
Image
Image
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:05 pm 


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You're doing the lord's work, Syntax!


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:54 pm 


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Syntax I'd like to add your sets to the list, but I need model numbers!
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:32 pm 



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Any modders in Ohio?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:38 am 


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cyborc wrote:
You're doing the lord's work, Syntax!


Cthulhu? :p

I swear you can hear the screens squeak with joy the first time you let them play a game via their RGB inputs :D


As far as adding sets to a list I'm not sure how well that will work out for other.

I think a list of Jungle ics and how to handle each one is more appropriate. More often than not I find the same jungle in different branded units.

Maybe for brands write a short paragraph for each like.
Sony
display button is a bitch.
Sony tv's with L2Fil can be horizontal tuned.

Lg
Most units have circuit board layout compatible with a scart header. After installing it's usually just a service menu edit.

Philips chips needs divided power not just 5v and a resistor.

Something like that. Already so much info is lost in this thread.

Also is have to open up the sets to accurately show what I did to make each one work, my memory not good enough against to 10 sets I've done.

Got 2 Sony's a rear projection screen and a quintrix to do today. First Quintrix...

Really though once you have the basics under your belt you can mod any set.
I look at jungles now and find 3 similar caps,follow the traces to 3 termination resistors and just know that's RGB input. Data sheets help a tonne though.

It usually just blanking that's a bitch. I may take some pictures and do a short tutorial on the 3/4 different ways jungles accept blanking.

Not sure how much longer I'll be doing this.
The original intention was to find thrown out tv's and mod them till I have a sweet one PER console.
But I've recently lined up about 90× 28 inch RGB crt wall installation sets. All with fk all use but case scratches as they are ex rentals.

Plan is to make a crt wall and put that fake emulator loader movie everyone puts on their front ends to shame.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:17 am 



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Syntax wrote:
But I've recently lined up about 90× 28 inch RGB crt wall installation sets. All with fk all use but case scratches as they are ex rentals.


Did I read that correctly? 90?
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:33 pm 


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MarkOZLAD wrote:
Syntax wrote:
But I've recently lined up about 90× 28 inch RGB crt wall installation sets. All with fk all use but case scratches as they are ex rentals.


Did I read that correctly? 90?


I know right, I'm only going to grab 9 but even that's too many. PM me if your keen and in NSW.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:01 pm 


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mikejmoffitt wrote:
The NES RGB problem shown in that picture is a result of the image being shifted far left. As a result, the overscan border color (blue, in the case of the Super Mario Bros sky) is being used as the clamping level for black. The TV subtracts the black level sample from the rest of the line, so if your black level has image data there you'll get strange color subtraction effects in the line. You need to use the service menu to shift the image right, or change the clamping delay. If you have other inputs to try like S-video or Component, try using those for sync.


You were right, it was from the overscan area being used as black level. I moved it over to S-video and now the NESRGB is perfect. Thanks!

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:42 am 


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I had the most backward jungle IC yesterday, ended up throwing the set out.
CENTREX
Jungle SANYO LA76810A

R - 14
G - 15
B - 16
Blanking - 17 (3v)

PDF schematic has an odd setup for RGB input, wants the signal clamped THEN terminated with a 1k resistor.
The jungle will not accept any clamped signal though, 3 different values and 3 different types of caps used, none will get signal through.
Looks at OSD and its just going through a 4.7k resistor on each color line, no terminations or caps...
Terminated with 75ohm resistors the picture is too dark..
So I put a 1k pot on the tail end of my 75ohm resistors which should of in theory made the picture darker as I increase the termination resistance.
As I increase the resistance it gets BRIGHTER!

I removed the termination resistors and put a triple gang 1k pot in its place. Its effectively a brightness knob now.
Connecting it directly to the jungle results in a black screen that you can turn up to white.
Since when do direct terminations with no signal feed make a white screen??
The Jungles internal channels were blue pink and yellow when you terminate 2 so you can see 1.
Internal color channels... WTF
Its like the whole Peak to Peak reading of the color channels is inverted logic or something.

I threw the set away though because I couldn't get definition in the RGB picture, The black levels were all whack I think.
That and the 4pdt and scart connectors worth more.
Literally the most backwards Jungle ive ever worked on, Centrex must of wired so wrong but I didn't have the time to check it further.
I did get RGB out of it so ill call it a draw.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:27 am 


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I've got a Sanyo that does something similar - when fed sync, blanking and red only, no G or B, the screen comes up as a pale aqua colour, very washed out. Adding G and B in as well makes a normal, clear, colour-correct picture. Without caps and terminations you pretty much get nothing. No idea what's happening there, but i don't think i've crossed any wires.

Those video wall monitors were the ones from the surf-clothing-shop-looking add on gumtree? The old Barco ones? Let us now how they go, the similar units by Hantarex tend to have the TVL of a consumer set. Not that there's anything wrong with that...


Last edited by buttersoft on Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:49 am 



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Syntax, you might be able to help with this one.

Helping another Brazillian chap do a mod.

He has a Phillips 21PT534A/78R. It has a TDA 8841 Jungle. It's another one of those that completely blanks the RGB lines at 4V, same as for Marcos.

Seeing really weird behaviour. Have connected the blanking pin to a 5V source (in fact we've tried two, the 5V regulator and the Fac Serv line for Serial Port) via a 10K pot. We can get blanking to happen but it only lasts for a short while and then the blanking stops again. TV Returns to showing only sync. As my Brazillian friend put it, it is like the blanking pin is hungry! Repeated turns of the potentiometer result in the same thing, blanking and then blanking stops after a short while.

I am a complete novice when it comes to the blanking. I've been lucky that the TVs I've modded have been dead simple to get blanking, just 5V or 5V with a pot/resistor. this one has me confounded. Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Mark
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OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:05 am 



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 629
nakedarthur wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
The NES RGB problem shown in that picture is a result of the image being shifted far left. As a result, the overscan border color (blue, in the case of the Super Mario Bros sky) is being used as the clamping level for black. The TV subtracts the black level sample from the rest of the line, so if your black level has image data there you'll get strange color subtraction effects in the line. You need to use the service menu to shift the image right, or change the clamping delay. If you have other inputs to try like S-video or Component, try using those for sync.


You were right, it was from the overscan area being used as black level. I moved it over to S-video and now the NESRGB is perfect. Thanks!

Image


Glad you got it sorted, looks like a very successful mod.

Did you create an adaptor chord to send the sync into the S-Video port or did you wire the sync line internally to a Y pin?
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OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:43 am 


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MarkOZLAD wrote:
Syntax, you might be able to help with this one.

Helping another Brazillian chap do a mod.

He has a Phillips 21PT534A/78R. It has a TDA 8841 Jungle. It's another one of those that completely blanks the RGB lines at 4V, same as for Marcos.

Seeing really weird behaviour. Have connected the blanking pin to a 5V source (in fact we've tried two, the 5V regulator and the Fac Serv line for Serial Port) via a 10K pot. We can get blanking to happen but it only lasts for a short while and then the blanking stops again. TV Returns to showing only sync. As my Brazillian friend put it, it is like the blanking pin is hungry! Repeated turns of the potentiometer result in the same thing, blanking and then blanking stops after a short while.

I am a complete novice when it comes to the blanking. I've been lucky that the TVs I've modded have been dead simple to get blanking, just 5V or 5V with a pot/resistor. this one has me confounded. Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Mark


Page 15

By means of the IE1 bit the insertion blanking can be switched on or off. Via the IN1 bit it can be read whether the insertion pin has a high level or not.

FAST BLANKING, PIN 26 (38 AND 44 FOR TDA 885X)
S.3.1 input voltage no data insertion −−0.4 V S.3.2 data insertion 0.9 0.6 − V


Did you try wire a 10k pot with 5v one side and ground the other side with blanking pin in the middle?

When in doubt get out the multimeter and trace out the OSD blanking path, make note of the components and if it has a termination resistor there is a good chane you will need to wire the pot like that.


Last edited by Syntax on Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am 



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Syntax wrote:
MarkOZLAD wrote:
Syntax, you might be able to help with this one.

Helping another Brazillian chap do a mod.

He has a Phillips 21PT534A/78R. It has a TDA 8841 Jungle. It's another one of those that completely blanks the RGB lines at 4V, same as for Marcos.

Seeing really weird behaviour. Have connected the blanking pin to a 5V source (in fact we've tried two, the 5V regulator and the Fac Serv line for Serial Port) via a 10K pot. We can get blanking to happen but it only lasts for a short while and then the blanking stops again. TV Returns to showing only sync. As my Brazillian friend put it, it is like the blanking pin is hungry! Repeated turns of the potentiometer result in the same thing, blanking and then blanking stops after a short while.

I am a complete novice when it comes to the blanking. I've been lucky that the TVs I've modded have been dead simple to get blanking, just 5V or 5V with a pot/resistor. this one has me confounded. Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Mark


Page 15

By means of the IE1 bit the insertion blanking can be switched on or off. Via the IN1 bit it can be read whether the insertion pin has a high level or not.

FAST BLANKING, PIN 26 (38 AND 44 FOR TDA 885X)
S.3.1 input voltage no data insertion −−0.4 V S.3.2 data insertion 0.9 0.6 − V


Did you try wire a 10k pot with 5v one side and ground the other side with blanking pin in the middle?


No we haven't. We will try that next.

Thanks for the reply.
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OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:59 am 



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Posts: 629
Syntax wrote:
When in doubt get out the multimeter and trace out the OSD blanking path, make note of the components and if it has a termination resistor there is a good chance you will need to wire the pot like that.


Now that is interesting. The schematic shows the OSD blanking being terminated to a 4.7KOhm resistor. Will follow up that lead.

Thanks again as always.
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