TV RGB mod thread

[mikejmoffitt]

Not hard, just the issues that various other configurations gave were a bit misleading to me

Got the focus really nice in the center of the tube:

[Voultar]

Very good. Glad to help!

[leonk]

I'm itching to try it out myself. I have access to a KV-27FS13 or KV-27FS100

Any suggestions on which one will be a better candidate for the mod?

[bobrocks95]

I'm curious if this model in the thread (KV-27S42) is what people would call the best consumer curved Trinitron? I know the KV-xxFV310 is the best flat model available- did you guys just have this model on hand or did you seek it out?

EDIT: Also, where did you both go to find datasheets for your Jungle chips? I've got a CXA2154AS and some sites are saying the 2153 is "equivalent" but I don't know how accurate that statement is. Any general guidelines to know if it even has a chance of RGB being added?

[BazookaBen]

Oh crap, are you guys doing these to Trinitron's that were pre-component video? As in the best they had was S-video?

I may consider trying this in that case, since I'm not really a fan of how most component-capable Trinitrons were flat (maybe all). I'd really like a curved tube that can do something beyond s-video.

[mvsfan]

Found my jungle ic.



the tv is a kv-32fs120.

I was a bit unsure what pin im supposed to feed 5v to to turn the rgb lines on.

Im assuming its the 3 pins 25, 26, 27 for YUV in that get switched to rgb since it looks like i only have 1 set of input on the chip.

[bobrocks95]

Found my jungle ic.

the tv is a kv-32fs120.

I was a bit unsure what pin im supposed to feed 5v to to turn the rgb lines on.

Im assuming its the 3 pins 25, 26, 27 for YUV in that get switched to rgb since it looks like i only have 1 set of input on the chip.

Sure that isn't a comb filter or something? My Jungle chip has 30 pins in a through-hole IC with RGB inputs, OSD RGB inputs, and the like. It's part number isn't close to any other Jungle ICs either.

[mvsfan]

I see where it says comb on this diagram.

I think your right bobrocks. whoops.

Ill have to look at that again.

Edit: on another diagram it says Video processor/comb filter.
from the diagram the inputs look like they are all hooked up to this chip.
I dont see any other chips on the diagrams with lots of things hooked up to them like this one.

n

[Voultar]

I just want to say something, and in no way do I mean to be a dick.

If you don't have experience or knowledge in servicing HV equipment. You probably need to just step away and do some thorough research. This isn't something you want to play with and "get wrong". You can get seriously, seriously hurt here.

I helped mikejmoffitt because he knows how a CRT (by principle) works. I wouldn't have felt guilty had he shocked his nuts off into the next plane of existence.

PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Found my jungle ic.

the tv is a kv-32fs120.

I was a bit unsure what pin im supposed to feed 5v to to turn the rgb lines on.

Im assuming its the 3 pins 25, 26, 27 for YUV in that get switched to rgb since it looks like i only have 1 set of input on the chip.

That Jungle I/C operates only in the YUV color space. Those aren't RGB inputs. Two totally different standards, as well as video signals.

I'm itching to try it out myself. I have access to a KV-27FS13 or KV-27FS100

Any suggestions on which one will be a better candidate for the mod?

My suggestion is to grab the service manual for each set and review both of their capabilities. I just reviewed them both, so I'll tell you to stay away from the 27FS13 as its Jungle I/C operates only in the Luma & Chroma colorspace. You'd have to drive the guns directly on that set, and I'm not going to go back and forth on an AC coupled video circuit.



The 27FS100 however, is a winner.




Just use the information that I gave in the thread.

Pins 41, 42, and 43 are your RGB inputs. Take them out of circuit, and tie 75 ohm resistors to ground to match impedence for the 75 ohm load, and add a .1uf coupling cap for black level restoration.

Pin 40 is blanking. Tie pin 40 high to a low voltage source (3v-5v) when you want to enable the RGB input.

If you want me to get REALLY technical...

1) Buy a female SCART socket that's panel mountable. Why? because it's a fucking standard. And even though I roll my owns cables, I like standards. Of course, you can use whatever you want.

2) If you're doing SCART. Wire it up per the SCART standard, I prefer Euro. (Do your 75ohm to ground terminations as well as your .1uF DC caps on the OUTPUTS of the connector to simplify things.)



3) Be a real man and use a template to cut out your SCART connector port.



4) Wire that shit up. Hijack stereo audio and sync from a set of composite inputs. If you're wiring a switch (I use a 6PDT) to switch your OSD lines and RGB inputs, wire that shit up, too.



5) Button it all together.




I've touched on this in passing on various threads when people ask me about doing this. It starts in the service manual. Look up the service manual for the set you'd want to do and review the block diagram, schematics, and chips employed.

[mikejmoffitt]

Oh crap, are you guys doing these to Trinitron's that were pre-component video? As in the best they had was S-video?

I may consider trying this in that case, since I'm not really a fan of how most component-capable Trinitrons were flat (maybe all). I'd really like a curved tube that can do something beyond s-video.

Yep, this one only had S-video. The beautiful cylindrical-shaped tube sort.

I mounted my ports like this:

http://i.imgur.com/NRcghkk.jpg

There's a nifty switch near the front so I can reach it without difficulty:

http://i.imgur.com/gouPvK3.jpg

I think my yoke needs readjustment. The magnetic rings on the neck are more or less stuck in place. I managed to free a few, but they don't want to rotate far, and I do not wish to force them in case they break which I have dealt with before.

I've always adjusted the yoke and neck rings while the set is switched off, then powered it on to see results and then adjust further. Can I get a sound confirmation on which parts of the neck I should / should not touch? Obvious no-nos includes the conductive side of the neck board and by extension the CR-9 socket.

As for stealing sync, at least on this set I recommend using S-video's luma line, because that has a different H offset that is exactly what is needed, without any fucking around. Composite was shifted to the left to account for time needed for the comb filter and more importantly composite video decoding.

[Skips]

I know this sounds dumb but some tubes you have to not only break the epoxy like substance to move the rings but you may also have to undo a clamp somewhere on the neck. I can't remember the model but one of the older PVM's I used to have required I undo the screw clamp on the neck before I could adjust the rings.

[Voultar]

As for stealing sync, at least on this set I recommend using S-video's luma line, because that has a different H offset that is exactly what is needed, without any fucking around. Composite was shifted to the left to account for time needed for the comb filter and more importantly composite video decoding.

That's a good point. You can always try using Luma as a sync source to get around the processing delay of C-Video. Your mileage will vary, though. Some sets it just won't matter, it's all depends on how it's processed.

As for what to touch and not to touch. Stay away from the neckboard, and stay away from the anode cup. Never trust those old rubber seals. The bell of the CRT is relatively safe to bump. These sets are designed for live adjustments, so as long as you pay mind to a couple of things, you'll be fine.

[atheistgod1999]

Oh crap, are you guys doing these to Trinitron's that were pre-component video? As in the best they had was S-video?

I may consider trying this in that case, since I'm not really a fan of how most component-capable Trinitrons were flat (maybe all). I'd really like a curved tube that can do something beyond s-video.

Yep, this one only had S-video. The beautiful cylindrical-shaped tube sort.

I mounted my ports like this:

http://i.imgur.com/NRcghkk.jpg

There's a nifty switch near the front so I can reach it without difficulty:

http://i.imgur.com/gouPvK3.jpg

I think my yoke needs readjustment. The magnetic rings on the neck are more or less stuck in place. I managed to free a few, but they don't want to rotate far, and I do not wish to force them in case they break which I have dealt with before.

I've always adjusted the yoke and neck rings while the set is switched off, then powered it on to see results and then adjust further. Can I get a sound confirmation on which parts of the neck I should / should not touch? Obvious no-nos includes the conductive side of the neck board and by extension the CR-9 socket.

As for stealing sync, at least on this set I recommend using S-video's luma line, because that has a different H offset that is exactly what is needed, without any fucking around. Composite was shifted to the left to account for time needed for the comb filter and more importantly composite video decoding.

Man, I had a couple consumer-grade sets before going the BVM route that had horrible convergence issues, and both were trinitrons. The first one I think was your model. That one had much worse convergence than yours, though. Anyway, with both TVs, I was trying to adjust the magnetic rings, and on both of them I accidentally snapped off one of the handle tab things that help me move it. I could still move it, it was just harder. Don't break the tabs (and I'm not talking about the thing on the BVM that I broke; I'm talking about the tabs on the magnetic rings).

[mvsfan]

I just want to say something, and in no way do I mean to be a dick.

If you don't have experience or knowledge in servicing HV equipment. You probably need to just step away and do some thorough research. This isn't something you want to play with and "get wrong". You can get seriously, seriously hurt here.

I helped mikejmoffitt because he knows how a CRT (by principle) works. I wouldn't have felt guilty had he shocked his nuts off into the next plane of existence.

PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!

thanks. I have a high voltage probe and i know how to discharge a crt with it.

Found my jungle ic.

the tv is a kv-32fs120.

I was a bit unsure what pin im supposed to feed 5v to to turn the rgb lines on.

Im assuming its the 3 pins 25, 26, 27 for YUV in that get switched to rgb since it looks like i only have 1 set of input on the chip.

That Jungle I/C operates only in the YUV color space. Those aren't RGB inputs. Two totally different standards, as well as video signals.

got it now. chip wont work. get another tv. ;P back to craigslist.

btw, do any of the flat screen trinitrons have the right chip or are they all Yuv?

[Guspaz]

The quality difference between RGB and YUV converted to RGB is going to be minimal to non-existent.

[bobrocks95]

The quality difference between RGB and YUV converted to RGB is going to be minimal to non-existent.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, or who you're addressing.

This thread is for adding an RGB input to a Trinitron for convenience, not that it will necessarily look better.
The previous post about the Jungle chip is about determining if the set can be modded to accept straight RGB. A YUV-only Jungle IC is not capable of accepting RGB of course.

I just don't know what point you were getting at exactly?

[mikejmoffitt]

I just want to say something, and in no way do I mean to be a dick.

If you don't have experience or knowledge in servicing HV equipment. You probably need to just step away and do some thorough research. This isn't something you want to play with and "get wrong". You can get seriously, seriously hurt here.

I helped mikejmoffitt because he knows how a CRT (by principle) works. I wouldn't have felt guilty had he shocked his nuts off into the next plane of existence.

PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!

thanks. I have a high voltage probe and i know how to discharge a crt with it.

Found my jungle ic.

the tv is a kv-32fs120.

I was a bit unsure what pin im supposed to feed 5v to to turn the rgb lines on.

Im assuming its the 3 pins 25, 26, 27 for YUV in that get switched to rgb since it looks like i only have 1 set of input on the chip.

That Jungle I/C operates only in the YUV color space. Those aren't RGB inputs. Two totally different standards, as well as video signals.

got it now. chip wont work. get another tv. ;P back to craigslist.

btw, do any of the flat screen trinitrons have the right chip or are they all Yuv?

The FS100 looks to be RGB-happy.

[Guspaz]

The quality difference between RGB and YUV converted to RGB is going to be minimal to non-existent.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, or who you're addressing.

This thread is for adding an RGB input to a Trinitron for convenience, not that it will necessarily look better.
The previous post about the Jungle chip is about determining if the set can be modded to accept straight RGB. A YUV-only Jungle IC is not capable of accepting RGB of course.

I just don't know what point you were getting at exactly?

I was addressing the mentality of "I guess I'll get rid of this TV and get a different one because it only supports YUV", and if the goal is to get an improvement in image quality by moving from composite to RGB, then YPbPr would serve that goal just as well, and you can get like a $30 passive board to do that conversion, put it inside the TV, and still wire up whatever kind of RGB SCART connector you want. If the goal is RGB input into the TV, that'll get you it, without any real difference in quality...

On the other hand, I'm realizing that the post said the TV does YUV, not YPbPr, so that's a whole different story. I see boards for $25 that do YUV to RGB, but not the other way around.

[bobrocks95]

I was addressing the mentality of "I guess I'll get rid of this TV and get a different one because it only supports YUV", and if the goal is to get an improvement in image quality by moving from composite to RGB, then YPbPr would serve that goal just as well, and you can get like a $30 passive board to do that conversion, put it inside the TV, and still wire up whatever kind of RGB SCART connector you want. If the goal is RGB input into the TV, that'll get you it, without any real difference in quality...

On the other hand, I'm realizing that the post said the TV does YUV, not YPbPr, so that's a whole different story. I see boards for $25 that do YUV to RGB, but not the other way around.

Okay, yeah I see where you're coming from. In this case though, I think the TVs that have been talked about so far only support up to S-Video and not component. If you got it for free and thought it could be RGB modded it's not a bad idea to pass it on.

[atheistgod1999]

Why do chips matter? Can't you just hook the RGB wires straight to the electron guns?

[bobrocks95]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not but the chip is a fairly complex pre-amp that, looking at the block diagram for mine, mixes in settings (contrast, sharpness, brightness, etc.) and performs some sync separation as well I believe. I have little experience with block diagrams so I might be wrong, but it's a 64-pin package on my TV and is probably doing more than you might be assuming.

[atheistgod1999]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not but the chip is a fairly complex pre-amp that, looking at the block diagram for mine, mixes in settings (contrast, sharpness, brightness, etc.) and performs some sync separation as well I believe. I have little experience with block diagrams so I might be wrong, but it's a 64-pin package on my TV and is probably doing more than you might be assuming.

Yeah, well that's only when everything's relative like on an NTSC signal. When I display RGB on my BVM, all those options are disabled.

[darcagn]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not but the chip is a fairly complex pre-amp that, looking at the block diagram for mine, mixes in settings (contrast, sharpness, brightness, etc.) and performs some sync separation as well I believe. I have little experience with block diagrams so I might be wrong, but it's a 64-pin package on my TV and is probably doing more than you might be assuming.

Yeah, well that's only when everything's relative like on an NTSC signal. When I display RGB on my BVM, all those options are disabled.

It shouldn't disable those options just because you're on RGB...

[bobrocks95]

Yeah, well that's only when everything's relative like on an NTSC signal. When I display RGB on my BVM, all those options are disabled.

The RGB inputs on your BVM probably run through at least 3 or 4 ICs too before they reach the electron guns.

[Guspaz]

PVMs/BVMs disable the chroma and phase settings/controls when on RGB, because those settings don't make sense for RGB.

[mikejmoffitt]

All of those options SHOULD be disabled on RGB. Enabling them would mean a useless colorspace conversion, inducing a little delay and more potential for quality loss. One of RGB's strengths is that colors wlil always maintain the correct relationship relative to one another. Introducing a saturation control means you're only making your signal shittier. An aperture control also doesn't make sense, as that's used to change filtration parameters for an NTSC signal to try and recover lost luma data. Again, not relevant for RGB.

As it goes, in the KV-27S42's jungle RGB inputs, brightness and contrast / picture (DC offset and Gain, respectively) are passed from the TV controls to the RGB, and the RGB signal is clamped. That is the processing performed, as it should be. The service menu's gamma controls also affect it, as they should.

----------

With regards to RGB to YPbPr, I would never want to use a converter box when tapping in RGB is available. For one, that's just another device to have eating up a spot on the power strip, and another device that must be purchased. More wires and bullshit behind the TV. The quality will be the same, in an ideal world in a vacuum with only perfect parts. The ones that cost $30 perform like they cost $30, and getting a perfect conversion out of them (with or without tweaking of many potentiometers) is asking a lot. Even then, with that conversion said and done, you're still vulnerable to the image processing I described above, which RGB conveniently bypasses - undersaturation, oversaturation, white balance issues, unecessary ringing from filters applied from sharpness control, signal noise from another amplification stage or two... YUV conversions are a chump solution when RGB is directly available. It's great to have, but not a substitute in my view.

[Guspaz]

They go inside the TV (no extra wires or power strips), and they can cost $30-40 because they don't need to cost any more than that. You're not paying for connectors, or a metal shell, or a power adapter, you're soldering leads directly to it. They do tend to need 3.3V or 5V power, though, but there is power available within the television that can either be used directly, or run through a 7805. HD Retrovision's cables, while retail pricing hasn't been announced, should cost something like that (they kickstarted at $35 a cable, if memory serves), and would seem to do a high quality RGB to YPbPr conversion.

[mikejmoffitt]

If I'm already opening the TV, mounting a port, and soldering anything, why in the world would I pay for a converter board when the TV can accept RGB in any capacity?

[Guspaz]

You kind of missed the point of my original post, which was a television whose processor can accept a component image, but not an RGB image. In that case, it would be better to install a converter board rather than throw out the TV, which was the original sentiment.

[mvsfan]

My tv does already have component inputs. point is though, that the colors look washed out compared to my pvm and will never equal it when using the converter box.

if rgb was available i wouldnt think twice about using it. The benefit over the pvm is the screen size.