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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 6:38 pm 


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tjsynkral wrote:
Voultar wrote:
mvsfan wrote:
anyone seen a service manual for a JVC AV36S33? I searched for a long time but never could find one.


Google Search, it only takes 3 seconds..

http://elektrotanya.com/jvc_av-36320_av-36330_av-36360_av-36s33_av-36s36_ch_ge_sm.pdf/download.html

This set doesn't have analog RGB inputs.


It looks like it may be possible to feed RGB into the TA1287F which takes RGB input from the PIP board and converts it to YUV. The neat thing about PIP is it can be switched on and off with the remote, so you could in theory sacrifice the PIP feature to use the PIP as the RGB input. This set looks like it would be a fun one to try to mod.

Note: If the set has no PIP then it may be unusable if you cannot force the set to switch to that input.



Yeah, I totally skipped over that. I've done that several times to Toshiba sets.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:57 am 



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mvsfan wrote:
i actually noticed that from one of the other JVC manuals i was reading.

looks like some or all of the JVC pip units are RGB.

But the pip is in a small window. how would you make it fullscreen? is it adjustable in the service menu?

Edit: i got the original manual with the tv. The AV36S33 doesnt have pip.


Even if the PIP board is not installed, the pads and the pins on IC601 may be present and live. Try hooking up pins 6, 7, 8 to R, G, B and pulling pins 9, 10, and 11 high and see if you get your RGB input. (Tune the TV to composite from the same source for sync.)

Note: It's not clear whether this set is rigged to feed in an RGB PIP or a YUV PIP. The PIP board pins are labeled Y PR and PB, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are actually carrying Y/PR/PB. It appears that the Matrix Control is pulled high which would be consistent with an RGB-YUV conversion mode so it probably really is RGB on the PIP input.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:03 pm 


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tjsynkral wrote:
mvsfan wrote:
i actually noticed that from one of the other JVC manuals i was reading.

looks like some or all of the JVC pip units are RGB.

But the pip is in a small window. how would you make it fullscreen? is it adjustable in the service menu?

Edit: i got the original manual with the tv. The AV36S33 doesnt have pip.


Even if the PIP board is not installed, the pads and the pins on IC601 may be present and live. Try hooking up pins 6, 7, 8 to R, G, B and pulling pins 9, 10, and 11 high and see if you get your RGB input. (Tune the TV to composite from the same source for sync.)

Note: It's not clear whether this set is rigged to feed in an RGB PIP or a YUV PIP. The PIP board pins are labeled Y PR and PB, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are actually carrying Y/PR/PB. It appears that the Matrix Control is pulled high which would be consistent with an RGB-YUV conversion mode so it probably really is RGB on the PIP input.


Sure it's clear. I sound like a broken record in this thread. Look up the datasheet for the components in question. They tell you everything that you need to know, operationally.

That's a TA1287F. The Datasheet can be found here: http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/31193/TOSHIBA/TA1287F.html

Let's pull some information, we'll start with the inputs on the chip:

Image

Okay, great. Both analog RGB @ .7vPP AND YUV work here.

Now, let's look into blanking and signal switching:

Image

This tells some of the story. But the question is: "How would I get my small little PiP box to fill the entire screen?"

I believe there's your answer. Reference the table, and it will tell you the proper combination of those 3 blanking pins needed to blank the entire screen.


Image


Image

Your television may already give you the ability to full-screen your PiP window. If it does, there's no reason to mess with the blanking circuit here. If it doesn't, however. You can manually take control of it.


^ If you look at the 1st picture I annotated, you'll see that pin 16 is being fed by the VCC input on this IC with a divider in circuit to drop the voltage down to around 2.9V. This switches the chip into RGB to YUV (NTSC) operation. You can leave that alone, but I'd be interested in seeing how tying pin 16 to low operates. It should operate as a 1:1 RGB input to RGB output as the chip can operate completely as a passthrough. Although, that may have an ill-effect on your standard inputs. This chip may terminate to something that ONLY operates in the YUV color-space, which is probable. Just something to play with.

Either way, it's pretty easy.

Of course, this is all academic if your set doesn't have the TA1287F populated on the board there.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:30 am 



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Great to know, voultar. SO that chips inputs CAN operate as either RGB or YUV. Hmm.

but what im wondering is if that chip outputs terminate to something that has to be yuv as you suggested it could, whats the difference between using rgb through the chip converted to yuv, or just using the component inputs on the tv?

why bother with modding for RGB if its getting converted back to yuv in the tv anyway?

Now, if that chips outputs can be or are already set to RGB, then i see the point of using it.

If you manually set pin 16 to RGB, if whatever is downstream is expecting YUV input, it wont work.

Am i missing somthing?


Last edited by mvsfan on Tue May 24, 2016 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:47 am 


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mvsfan wrote:
Great to know, voultar. SO that chips inputs CAN operate as either RGB or YUV. Hmm.

but what im wondering is if that chip outputs terminate to something that has to be yuv as you suggested it could, whats the difference between using rgb through the chip converted to yuv, or just using the component inputs on the tv?

why bother with modding for RGB if its getting converted back to yuv in the tv anyway?

Now, if that chips outputs can be or are already set to RGB, then i see the point of using it.

Am i missing somthing?


Well, remember. YUV lives in a more narrow color-space than RGB. There's more bandwidth, but a more narrow color-space!

So, if you have component inputs on your TV, naturally it makes sense for this chip.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:49 am 



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HMM.

Read the rest of my post above, i added something to it.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:53 am 



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It makes more sence to leave it be? or add RGB to it? what if the outputs cant be switched to RGB because the downstream component is expecting YUV?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:56 am 


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I believe the Jungle I/C on your set only has inputs for YUV stuff. The outputs on this chip would terminate to inputs on that chip for mixing.

So yes, it might be counter intuitive. But keep in mind, this chip has been calibrated and tuned for your set with all of the gains and cut-offs dialed in optimally. The RGB to YUV conversion handled internally would probably fair better than one of those CSY clones. But then again, you never know.

Those CSY transcoders are pretty damn good if you dial them in!
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:03 am 



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I dont like mine anymore. I installed The nesrgb component board in both my NES and SNES recently and they both look way better than my other consoles going through the CSY. I tried for several hours adjusting the csy and it still doesnt look as good.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:06 am 


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mvsfan wrote:
I dont like mine anymore. I installed The nesrgb component board in both my NES and SNES recently and they both look way better than my other consoles going through the CSY. I tried for several hours adjusting the csy and it still doesnt look as good.



Well, if your TV has that IC. Give it a go! You may like the results immensely!
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:08 pm 


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Voultar wrote:
tjsynkral wrote:
mvsfan wrote:
i actually noticed that from one of the other JVC manuals i was reading.

looks like some or all of the JVC pip units are RGB.

But the pip is in a small window. how would you make it fullscreen? is it adjustable in the service menu?

Edit: i got the original manual with the tv. The AV36S33 doesnt have pip.


Even if the PIP board is not installed, the pads and the pins on IC601 may be present and live. Try hooking up pins 6, 7, 8 to R, G, B and pulling pins 9, 10, and 11 high and see if you get your RGB input. (Tune the TV to composite from the same source for sync.)

Note: It's not clear whether this set is rigged to feed in an RGB PIP or a YUV PIP. The PIP board pins are labeled Y PR and PB, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are actually carrying Y/PR/PB. It appears that the Matrix Control is pulled high which would be consistent with an RGB-YUV conversion mode so it probably really is RGB on the PIP input.


Sure it's clear. I sound like a broken record in this thread. Look up the datasheet for the components in question. They tell you everything that you need to know, operationally.



That's because it still feels a lot like black magic to us plebes :)


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 2:28 pm 



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Because This TV is converting everything to yuv anyway, I think ive decided to leave it as is.

It already looks very good through the component jacks.

I was hoping to get more color saturation by switching to RGB, but its already saturated.
the nesrgb component board already increased my color saturation tremendously over the csy, and it looks damn good.

Thanks, Voultar for all the useful info.

You have really helped this thread along.

I have a small 20" Emerson Flatscreen Tv i might look at next because It has S-Video only and is probably much more likely to have RGB internally instead of yuv.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 4:01 am 


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Voultar wrote:
tjsynkral wrote:
mvsfan wrote:
i actually noticed that from one of the other JVC manuals i was reading.

looks like some or all of the JVC pip units are RGB.

But the pip is in a small window. how would you make it fullscreen? is it adjustable in the service menu?

Edit: i got the original manual with the tv. The AV36S33 doesnt have pip.


Even if the PIP board is not installed, the pads and the pins on IC601 may be present and live. Try hooking up pins 6, 7, 8 to R, G, B and pulling pins 9, 10, and 11 high and see if you get your RGB input. (Tune the TV to composite from the same source for sync.)

Note: It's not clear whether this set is rigged to feed in an RGB PIP or a YUV PIP. The PIP board pins are labeled Y PR and PB, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are actually carrying Y/PR/PB. It appears that the Matrix Control is pulled high which would be consistent with an RGB-YUV conversion mode so it probably really is RGB on the PIP input.

?
Sure it's clear. I sound like a broken record in this thread. Look up the datasheet for the components in question. They tell you everything that you need to know, operationally.


I would have to say Voultar, I really really try to look up all the information. I find as many service manuals as possible, but I have no idea how you find the info on the individual chips. I google the chip names and come up with places that sell them. I never find data sheets on individual chips. Care to tell me your secret on where to look?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:44 pm 


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I'm not being a smart-ass or facetious in any respect in my answering to your question.

Honest to God; Google Search.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:11 pm 


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Sorry for not making it clear before. I had no problem finding the datasheet for that particular chip before you replied. My problem is I would say more than half the chips from various CRT's I look up have no easily attainable datasheet unless you have a source that I don't know about. Which to be fair, could be very likely because I am not an expert on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:15 pm 


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For example I am working on an RCA F25250BC right now. I cannot find a service manual on this TV. The chip inside is a Sanyo LA7610. I found a datasheet for a Sanyo LA7615 which I am assuming is close to the same chip, but am not sure. This is not for a lack of trying. I am very proficient in the art of Google. All I'm asking is there any secret sauce to you finding these chips?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:28 am 



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Voultar wrote:
I'm not being a smart-ass or facetious in any respect in my answering to your question.

Honest to God; Google Search.



Believe it or not, but no 2 people have the same google search results! Google modifies the results based on your past searches. It could be that google simply thinks the other poster isn't really interested in datasheets for the IC but rather purchase it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 3:11 am 


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BTW, I did find info on the Sanyo LA7610 chip. Let's just say that took a loooooong, loooong, time to track down.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:41 am 


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Hi I just started on my first Official RGB Mod. I am attempting one on a Sony Trinitron KV-32FV15. I have ran into a bit of a snag where I have very noticeable ghosting as seen in the pic below. I have sync running through Luma and the RGB lines are all terminated at 75 ohms to ground then are connected to 0.1uF caps before hitting the jungle IC. Does anyone know what I am doing wrong or a way to counter act this?

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:35 am 


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I'm pretty sure the ghosting is from the Luma sync showing through but the RGB for some reason is side shifted to the left.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:40 pm 


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Did you keep your OSD in-circuit to the your Jungle I/C inputs that you've terminated your own RGB signal to?


Voultar wrote:

Keep in mind. Composite Video, and S-Video go through several post processing filters, such as comb for example.

RGB doesn't, and that in itself will produce a line delay, depending on how the jungle handles it. You can have a slight horizontal shift (typically in the east direction).
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:52 pm 


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I have my RGB signal coming from my Scart socket terminated to ground at 75 ohms. They are then heading to a 0.1uf capacitor. After that they head straight to the jungle IC which I have snipped the legs off. All of this is connected to a 4pdt switch, so I can still use the original OSD if I need to.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:09 pm 


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I saw what you were telling mikejmoffet earlier in the thread aboutcontrolling the h-phase on the jungle ic by supplying 5v and controlling the voltage with a pot. I will look it up in the service manual when I get home tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:11 pm 


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Check your terminations. I see that luma is treated to the same post processing as composite video, hence the horizontal shift.

Try moving your sync input over to one of your composhite video inputs, too.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:59 am 


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I tried sync through composite. It seemed even further off, and the color got all funky. I soldered my sync directly to pin 9 on the jungle which is where luma ends up. It didn't make a difference. I tried H position and osd position in the service menu. Neither one worked. H position moved everything including sync over. OSD position moved the OSD over but not the blanked OSD.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:38 am 


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I was wondering if someone with a bit more knowledge could give me an idea of how difficult it would be to mod RGB into a CRT that makes use of a Toshiba TA1201AN. The CRT itself is one of those Samsung GXTV, and while the composite picture it has is nice, I really want to see how nice it could be when running RGB.

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- ... 201AN.html
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:45 pm 



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Your good. Unlike my tvs, that chip you have has Analog R G B inputs. you should be able to add rgb to this tv.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:40 am 


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mvsfan wrote:
Your good. Unlike my tvs, that chip you have has Analog R G B inputs. you should be able to add rgb to this tv.

I know it's doable, I'm mainly asking for a bit of advice on how difficult/what it might require parts wise.

I'm still finding my sea legs when it comes to electronics stuff, and a bit of advice from those more knowledgeable on where to start in building amplifiers/clamping circuits or whatever to make it stable and usable.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:12 am 


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While I am far from an expert on the subject, I would suggest getting a burner TV to experiment on. For me, I have about 15 CRT's lying around my shed (yes I am crazy). This week was city wide cleanup in my town so there were tons of quality CRT's lying on the curb waiting to be thrown out. I certainly helped myself to them. But get a free experimental TV to get your feet wet. It helps calm the nerves about how complex it is when you know if you screw up, you're fine.

As far as parts go, I would order a pack of 75ohm resistors, 0.1uf caps, scart sockets, 4pdt on/on switches, and for the wire it's a matter of preference. I use cat 5e wire, but I've heard other people use cut up VGA cables as wiring. For equipment, you need a soldering iron, solder, flux, and a multimeter and solder sucker is nice to have. Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:50 am 


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suprcrackers wrote:
While I am far from an expert on the subject, I would suggest getting a burner TV to experiment on. For me, I have about 15 CRT's lying around my shed (yes I am crazy). This week was city wide cleanup in my town so there were tons of quality CRT's lying on the curb waiting to be thrown out. I certainly helped myself to them. But get a free experimental TV to get your feet wet. It helps calm the nerves about how complex it is when you know if you screw up, you're fine.

As far as parts go, I would order a pack of 75ohm resistors, 0.1uf caps, scart sockets, 4pdt on/on switches, and for the wire it's a matter of preference. I use cat 5e wire, but I've heard other people use cut up VGA cables as wiring. For equipment, you need a soldering iron, solder, flux, and a multimeter and solder sucker is nice to have. Hope this helps.

I've got multiple RGB monitors, it's just this one TV in particular I'd like to see RGB on, and the fact that you're not likely get the same sort of results from any two jungle chips that makes me hesitant to go out, find a "burner" to screw around with only to find out that this one needs thing setup up completely and entirely different, either for better or worse.
And at least until I would have everything worked out and refined, SCART sockets would definitely be one of the last things I'd pick up. If anything, toss a group of RCA or even BNC connectors on their to go along with the stuff I already have.
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