shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:16 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3175 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 106  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:40 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1356
What about RGB vs Component on the Wii and GameCube? Component on an NTSC GameCube/Wii can do 480p, while RGB SCART on a PAL GameCube/Wii can only do 480i/576i.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:34 pm 



Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 79
GeneraLight wrote:
What about RGB vs Component on the Wii and GameCube? Component on an NTSC GameCube/Wii can do 480p, while RGB SCART on a PAL GameCube/Wii can only do 480i/576i.


Well, it seems like you wouldn't be testing 480p unless you've got a compatible BVM anyway (non-EDTV tube sets wouldn't work)...besides, if we're just talking about avoiding the colorspace conversion for GameCube signals, then you'd want a RGBHV (VGA) mod on the digital cable, which would avoid YPbPr and also support 480p.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:19 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
Einzelherz wrote:
The seller wants $25 and says it's hardly been used. I'm mostly concerned that I'll buy it and be unable to do the mod correctly.


You don't need to pay $25 for a CRT. You can find tons of them free for the taking. If you're unsure about your modding skills, practice on a free one.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:42 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1206
tjsynkral wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
The seller wants $25 and says it's hardly been used. I'm mostly concerned that I'll buy it and be unable to do the mod correctly.


You don't need to pay $25 for a CRT. You can find tons of them free for the taking. If you're unsure about your modding skills, practice on a free one.


I didn't intend to pay that much, but I live in a small area.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:43 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18368
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
leonk wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
leonk wrote:
And the 2 people above that are poo poo'ing RGB (REALLY!?) obviously don't have an RGB TV next to their component one to do A/B comparison. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I compared RGB and component out from the PS2 Slim on a PVM20L5 and didn't notice any difference. There may well be some variables at play here, but on good equipment component shouldn't be worse.


I don't know the history of your PVM, but mine was a pull from the editing studio of a prestigious film and television college in my city (as they updated to all digital - now using Sony OLED broadcast monitors) It has a pedigree of professional tuning along with it. Using my PS2 slim with Monster component cables vs the RGB cables from retro cables (the lady on eBay) I notice a difference. The component has a slight edge noise on sharp edges. The colors also don't pop out as much.

So your pedigreed PVM is more screwed up than mine which was kept in a smoky news editing room in NYC and bounced all the way to my home 550 miles away :lol:

That or you're looking at a source that just puts out worse YPbPr than RGBs.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:56 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1356
telemetry wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
What about RGB vs Component on the Wii and GameCube? Component on an NTSC GameCube/Wii can do 480p, while RGB SCART on a PAL GameCube/Wii can only do 480i/576i.


Well, it seems like you wouldn't be testing 480p unless you've got a compatible BVM anyway (non-EDTV tube sets wouldn't work)...besides, if we're just talking about avoiding the colorspace conversion for GameCube signals, then you'd want a RGBHV (VGA) mod on the digital cable, which would avoid YPbPr and also support 480p.

I don't have a BVM, but I do have an HD CRT. It's a THX/ISF calibrated Sony KD-34XBR960 with the official GameCube and Wii component cables, running both consoles at native 480p. I believe the 960 uses the YCbCr/YPbPr colorspace, so no colorspace conversion is done.

How would a BVM-D24E1WU running a GameCube/Wii at 480p RGB compare to a KD-34XBR960 running a GameCube/Wii at 480p Component, assuming both are properly calibrated?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:44 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 1670
GeneraLight wrote:
How would a BVM-D24E1WU running a GameCube/Wii at 480p RGB compare to a KD-34XBR960 running a GameCube/Wii at 480p Component, assuming both are properly calibrated?


Well, I do know that 480p on your 960 is true 480p pixel-wise, at least vertically. In other words, there are 480 active lines every refresh. For the horizontal axis, I'm not sure if they sample at a certain rate, and if they resample in different ways for Normal, Full, and Zoom modes. Also, 480p is digitally processed so they can center it in a 540p window, so there will always be lag (and noticeably more lag in Full and Zoom modes).

BVM, in my understanding, is a multisync monitor actually scans at 480p. So every pixel is displayed as-is.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:51 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 601
Location: Mountain View, CA
The Gamecube's framebuffer is (IIRC) 4:2:2 YUV internally, so color detail is going to be piss anyhow.
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:41 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1356
mikejmoffitt wrote:
The Gamecube's framebuffer is (IIRC) 4:2:2 YUV internally, so color detail is going to be piss anyhow.

So wouldn't that mean that native YPbPr would be more accurate than RGB 4:4:4? Can you modify the internal framebuffer to 4:4:4 RGB?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:22 am 



Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 79
GeneraLight wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
The Gamecube's framebuffer is (IIRC) 4:2:2 YUV internally, so color detail is going to be piss anyhow.

So wouldn't that mean that native YPbPr would be more accurate than RGB 4:4:4? Can you modify the internal framebuffer to 4:4:4 RGB?


Does this refer to the stream before or after the IC in the component chip? The cable's chip itself can operate in RGB & YPbPr modes (that's how the mods work -- they're just opening the chip, flipping the mode switch, and attaching the H & V-sync lines). In that case it would seem that the cable itself supports a "lossy" conversion from 4:2:2 YUV to RGB, but that wouldn't seem to make much sense.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:47 am 



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 13
Well I managed to get it working but im a little disappointed. I think this tube is a little beat up, since comp/svideo looks pretty bad on it too. Picture looks pretty good in RGB but a bit bright/washed out and not very sharp. I turned the brightness all the way down to around 10% and the sharpness to 90%, which seemed to help. Maybe i am just spoiled by my BVM.

I haven't fiddled with the service menu yet- what settings should i look for? gamma maybe? Also need to fix the H positioning..

Some images below. Washed out effect is most notable in the mushroom kingdom scene. Whites are really bright for some reason.

Image

Image

Image

I also tested my ps1, and it looks a little bit better. It may just be something to do with the snes mini..


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:11 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1053
Location: Toronto, Canada
You say snes mini?

Are you using composite video for sync? Or did you do CSYNC restore on the mini and using CSYNC cable??


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:23 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
capsulej wrote:
Well I managed to get it working but im a little disappointed. I think this tube is a little beat up, since comp/svideo looks pretty bad on it too. Picture looks pretty good in RGB but a bit bright/washed out and not very sharp. I turned the brightness all the way down to around 10% and the sharpness to 90%, which seemed to help. Maybe i am just spoiled by my BVM.

I haven't fiddled with the service menu yet- what settings should i look for? gamma maybe? Also need to fix the H positioning..

Some images below. Washed out effect is most notable in the mushroom kingdom scene. Whites are really bright for some reason.

I also tested my ps1, and it looks a little bit better. It may just be something to do with the snes mini..


Tell us more about the circuit you're using. Are you terminating with 75 ohms to ground? Is there a 0.1 or 0.01U inline with the RGB lines? Is there good ground continuity all the way through everything? And, do you have the wires separated from sources of interference and as short as you can handle them being?

It appears you didn't follow my advice about using the Y input on a Trinitron - your picture is offset horizontally because of the comb filter delay. You may also be having the crosshatch/diagonal line problem a few of us saw with composite video as sync. If you don't already have one, pick up a coax-upgraded cable with raw sync from retro_console_accessories. (On my Trinitron, raw sync is usually good, sync on luma is good, composite video gives me problems.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 601
Location: Mountain View, CA
I had similar effects when my RGB lines were not terminated correctly.
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:52 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 55
I know this all sounds very newbish, but how does one terminate properly? I've had my Trinitron apart for oh I would say nine months now. Still have not figured out what is meant by "terminate to ground".


My guess is that you solder on 75ohm resistors before you connect each ground wire for R/G/B to ground. Is this correct? I also don't know where I connect each ground to. Can they share a ground? If so can they share the same 75ohm resistor to said ground. Then I'm not sure where the .1uF cap goes in the whole equation.

Thanks for the help.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:04 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
suprcrackers wrote:
I know this all sounds very newbish, but how does one terminate properly? I've had my Trinitron apart for oh I would say nine months now. Still have not figured out what is meant by "terminate to ground".


My guess is that you solder on 75ohm resistors before you connect each ground wire for R/G/B to ground. Is this correct? I also don't know where I connect each ground to. Can they share a ground? If so can they share the same 75ohm resistor to said ground. Then I'm not sure where the .1uF cap goes in the whole equation.

Thanks for the help.


No, the ground wires are all common ground. The R, G, and B signal wires coming from your SCART connector should have 75 ohm resistor to ground, and then go into your RGB/OSD switch (on my last project I simply ran 2 wires to the RGB side of the switch, one going to the SCART and the other going to my breadboard with each wire hitting a resistor and then ground). From that switch, the RGB wires should go through a capacitor matching the value of the surface mount caps that flow into the RGB input on the jungle IC (though in my tests 0.1 vs 0.01 doesn't seem to make a visible difference). You then remove those surface mount caps from the PCB, and re-route the OSD into your switch, and connect your output from those capacitors back where the surface mount caps were. You can either use the pads from the caps, or the legs on the IC, either way it's tricky to solder - but if you try the pad and accidentally rip it out or lift it, you get a 2nd chance with the leg, and if you bust the leg you have no choice but to restore it.

Edit: Here's a diagram showing basically what I did. http://gadgetscope.com/rgb/rgbschematic.png


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:13 am 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 55
Thanks, I have yet to get all my parts yet. I still need the switch, and the .1uF caps, but once I get them in the mail. I will give it a go.

Thanks


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:40 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1206
Because I still don't quite understand this all, would the jungle IC CXA2133BS work for this modification?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:35 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
Einzelherz wrote:
Because I still don't quite understand this all, would the jungle IC CXA2133BS work for this modification?


I'm not able to immediately find the datasheet for that IC (Sony jungle IC datasheets are pretty rare) - what model of TV?
If it has a color OSD, almost certainly yes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:48 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1206
tjsynkral wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
Because I still don't quite understand this all, would the jungle IC CXA2133BS work for this modification?


I'm not able to immediately find the datasheet for that IC (Sony jungle IC datasheets are pretty rare) - what model of TV?
If it has a color OSD, almost certainly yes.


KV-20S90.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:19 am 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
Einzelherz wrote:
tjsynkral wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
Because I still don't quite understand this all, would the jungle IC CXA2133BS work for this modification?


I'm not able to immediately find the datasheet for that IC (Sony jungle IC datasheets are pretty rare) - what model of TV?
If it has a color OSD, almost certainly yes.


KV-20S90.


Yep, easy to find service manual. Your interesting pins are 29-33. C316, C317, C318, and R316 will be removed and replicated on breadboard.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:27 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1206
I'm reading another service manual, this time for a KV-27FV310. It calls the jungle IC a "Y/C jungle" but it has RGB-in pins. Is that really all that is important at the end of the day - that it has the RGB-in pins?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:30 am 



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 13
So it turns out it was a problem with one of the scart cables i was using. I have so many lying around i must have grabbed a bad one or something.. anyways the picture is much better now although my camera makes it look darker than it is.

Image

Image

I did try using luma sync, and it made no difference with the positioning. I think for now i will just adjust the positioning through the service menu and call it a day.

This is great mod - especially if you want a larger RGB monitor, since finding a 25"+ BVM or PVM that isn't beat up is difficult and expensive.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:39 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
Einzelherz wrote:
I'm reading another service manual, this time for a KV-27FV310. It calls the jungle IC a "Y/C jungle" but it has RGB-in pins. Is that really all that is important at the end of the day - that it has the RGB-in pins?


Yep. Recall that even my Zenith which only had RF input had an RGB OSD input.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:42 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
capsulej wrote:
I did try using luma sync, and it made no difference with the positioning. I think for now i will just adjust the positioning through the service menu and call it a day.

This is great mod - especially if you want a larger RGB monitor, since finding a 25"+ BVM or PVM that isn't beat up is difficult and expensive.


It doesn't matter what sync source you're using, what input are you using?
If you're feeding sync on luma into the composite video input, you'll still get the offset because you're still running through the comb filter.
You need to use the luma (Y) input on your TV as the sync source to get rid of the offset. You can feed composite video, CSYNC, or luma in that input and it seems to all work fine.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:33 pm 



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 13
I worded that wrong - I tried using both a composite input and luma pin on the svideo connector, results were exactly the same.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 4:38 am 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
Working on a 2nd 27 inch Trinitron and even before I add in the SCART, simply relocating the resistor and 3 capacitors to a switch and an external board with wire causes the OSD to have that wavy interference before I even add any external input. It's definitely the wire alone that is responsible for it.

I wonder if using a high-gauge coax wire with a grounded shield would help? Does anyone have suggestions on wire to use?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 11:17 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1209
anyone seen a service manual for a JVC AV36S33? I searched for a long time but never could find one.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 543
Location: USA
mvsfan wrote:
anyone seen a service manual for a JVC AV36S33? I searched for a long time but never could find one.


Google Search, it only takes 3 seconds..

http://elektrotanya.com/jvc_av-36320_av-36330_av-36360_av-36s33_av-36s36_ch_ge_sm.pdf/download.html

This set doesn't have analog RGB inputs.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/voultar
http://www.voultar.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:44 pm 



Joined: 21 May 2016
Posts: 22
Hello,

I'm looking to mod my Samsung flat screen CRT for direct RGB.

Has anyone ever played around with this model?

TXR2735X/XAC

Thanks,

Ice


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3175 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 106  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kez, Oneinchbiceps, Star1 and 30 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group