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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:24 pm 


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For me it has looked a lot better, because a lot of TVs with Component inputs still:

-Have a "sharpness" setting that will apply a low/hi/band pass filter to the signal, giving edges some amount of ringing
-Require a conversion to the RGB colorspace at one point (going to the tube), a potential for conversion quality loss
-Provide an opportunity for the saturation/chroma/color setting to be imperfect; RGB preserves saturation without distortion
-Provide an opportunity for a TV's phase/hue setting to be imperfect as well

In a perfect world, a good RGB --> Component adapter with a good monitor/TV will look just as good, but with everything I listed above (not even counting the converter's possible issues) there are things that can complicate matters. Using RGB directly bypasses all of those problems.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:18 am 



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So can I mod my NTSC GameCube, Wii and XBR960 to all do RGB? How much would it cost for these services, or should I just stick with component?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:13 am 


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GeneraLight wrote:
So can I mod my NTSC GameCube, Wii and XBR960 to all do RGB? How much would it cost for these services, or should I just stick with component?


Component is great. These guys are just delving into the theoretical. In reality, if your TV has component, and it's not perfect, you have plenty of stuff in the service menu (and regular menu) to dial in the picture and make it identical to RGB.

And the XBR960 is totally different kind of TV from what the guys are dealing with here. This thread is all about 15hz tv's.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:16 am 



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bobrocks95 wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
Possibly a stupid question but: Aside from the color issues that can happen with certain RGB->Component converters, are any of you guys noticing a significant gain in picture quality? I get the simplicity aspect of not having to deal with a converter, but I was curious if there are any more benefits.


It probably looks better than a CSY clone and perceptively the same as any better transcoder.

We've yet to really see any objective proof and comparisons to the contrary however other than some subjective observations and assumptions.
My Phillips 27" with Component has no issues with ringing with it's sharpness setting when set to the neutral position. For example.
I doubt anyone would notice the other issues if they even exist much. Not unless they are significant like differences in NES Palettes for example.

Really, this is probably better overall as a way to save CRTs that would otherwise be almost useless.
And opens up the door for many more models(If you can find the schematics and know what to do) than sometimes obscenely priced Professional Monitors.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:45 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1043
Location: Toronto, Canada
I find it interesting that this discussion is talking about modifying your TV for RGB input, and it degenerated to a discussion of RGB vs component.

And the 2 people above that are poo poo'ing RGB (REALLY!?) obviously don't have an RGB TV next to their component one to do A/B comparison. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I modded a 27" Sony Trinitron TV for RGB which already had component input. I did A/B comparison on the SAME tube using multiple consoles as well as compare on my 20" PVM in the same room (which also accepts RGB and component on the same BNC input ports) I can tell you without a doubt that there is slight but noticeable difference between component and RGB.

If you're happy with your component TV.. awesome .. move along.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:57 am 


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leonk wrote:
I find it interesting that this discussion is talking about modifying your TV for RGB input, and it degenerated to a discussion of RGB vs component.

And the 2 people above that are poo poo'ing RGB (REALLY!?) obviously don't have an RGB TV next to their component one to do A/B comparison. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I modded a 27" Sony Trinitron TV for RGB which already had component input. I did A/B comparison on the SAME tube using multiple consoles as well as compare on my 20" PVM in the same room (which also accepts RGB and component on the same BNC input ports) I can tell you without a doubt that there is slight but noticeable difference between component and RGB.

If you're happy with your component TV.. awesome .. move along.


That's the answer to what I asked above, so thank you. Have you, or do you have the ability to take some screenshots?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:10 am 


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leonk wrote:
I find it interesting that this discussion is talking about modifying your TV for RGB input, and it degenerated to a discussion of RGB vs component.

And the 2 people above that are poo poo'ing RGB (REALLY!?) obviously don't have an RGB TV next to their component one to do A/B comparison. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I modded a 27" Sony Trinitron TV for RGB which already had component input. I did A/B comparison on the SAME tube using multiple consoles as well as compare on my 20" PVM in the same room (which also accepts RGB and component on the same BNC input ports) I can tell you without a doubt that there is slight but noticeable difference between component and RGB.

If you're happy with your component TV.. awesome .. move along.


Component is for all intents and purposes electrically compatible with RGB, the conversion is not inherently lossy in any way. It's highly likely you could get the two looking exactly the same if you tweaked component options in the service menu.

I can't do an A/B comparison but I could assure you in a double-blind test on the same set with component properly calibrated results would be about 50-50.

Not "poo poo'ing RGB" just stating that it's not any better than component and component isn't any better than it. That's all. I want to do one of these mods myself one day, but the big advantages are really just to repurpose sets that only have S-Video and for convenience to get another component out of the A/V setup. So it's at the absolute rock bottom of my priority list.

As for the move along comment, I answered a single question with a single sentence, I don't think that's overkill or anything. And if you were talking to Bonkers there he didn't really say all that much either... We're off on a bit of a tangent but it's all relevant to the question of "Do I want/need to mod my TV for RGB?"


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:14 pm 



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... and I quote: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ossc.html

"... Unfortunately the PS2's component signal is not 100% as good as its RGB signal. You get a little bit more of noise ..."

and there's the problem:

1) You assume your retro console has component output
2) You assume the component output from your console is as good as RGB
3) If your console has no component output, you assume your RGB to component output converter doesn't add its own noise
4) You assume your TV handles component input correctly without adding its own "color". The only TV that I know that gives you that granular control is a Sony PVM/BVM .. but these are not professional monitors - these are consumer TV's.

In my book, that's a lot of assumptions. By injecting RGB into the jungle IC's, you remove a lot of post processing and noise.

Will most people notice? Probably not. Component looks better than RF/composite and they're happy with that. But then again, a lot of people use the headphones that came with their smartphone and are happy with that as well. This mod is not for them. This mod is for the videophiles that spend $1000 on earbuds to get the best out of their music! (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Except.. in this case, the mod costs a fraction of what an external component box cost (I think I paid about $12US in parts) and the video quality is better. But then again, I'm not about to assume that everyone that reads this post has the tools and know-how on how to do this sort of surgery on their TV.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:23 pm 


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Well, I don't want to derail the thread any further, so I'll just say all the FD Trinitrons let you fully adjust the component color balance and the console's DAC and internal interference are going to be the largest source of noise by a significant margin. Noise strictly from a good converter should be imperceptible on a CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:42 pm 



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Einzelherz wrote:
Possibly a stupid question but: Aside from the color issues that can happen with certain RGB->Component converters, are any of you guys noticing a significant gain in picture quality? I get the simplicity aspect of not having to deal with a converter, but I was curious if there are any more benefits.


My clone Component converter has an issue with picture rolling and warping whenever there are white flashes on the screen. Maybe a genuine CSY2100 wouldn't do this but I've had no luck finding one for sale.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:51 pm 


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leonk wrote:
Except.. in this case, the mod costs a fraction of what an external component box cost (I think I paid about $12US in parts) and the video quality is better.


The video quality is not better. Just because you're getting a major placebo effect doesn't mean it is objectively better.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:40 pm 



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Can NTSC consumer CRTs accept RGB signals?


Last edited by GeneraLight on Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:58 am 


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This thread has derailed into a lot of misinformation, inaccuracies and shenanigans.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:29 pm 



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Speaking of derailment - does anyone know the line count on these late 90's/early 2000 480i model Trinitrons? Since these tvs are for Joe consumer Sony doesn't list this in any of the manuals or marketing materials. My KV-27FS100 looks like maybe a 600 to me, but I'm not sure. Does it show it in the service menu anywhere?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:49 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
Can NTSC consumer CRTs accept RGB signals?

Not without modding. That's the point of this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:22 pm 


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My KV-27S42 looks like a 600-line tube to me. The manual's specifications doesn't have anything about the number of lines, but one pixel of metal slug almost exactly maps to two TVL on my set, so I would guess around 600. The electronics and subsequently the service menu are agnostic of the tube's physical properties to an extent, so I would not expect the menu to show anything.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:34 pm 


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I would like to thank Voltar And Mike for all the help. I feel like I still have learning to do, but this is something I have been researching to various degrees for the past year. Your input has been a lot of help.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:28 pm 



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Jvc does list the line count for tvs that are better than standard. if it doesnt say anything that means its not better than a standard tv.

It seems that jvc also keeps a product database of just about everything theyve made too on their website.

ive never seen the lines listed for consumer sonys.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:27 pm 


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As far as a buying guide for Sony's to mod, should I assume that a tv with only composite is probably too low rent to be worth the trouble?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:44 am 


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Einzelherz wrote:
As far as a buying guide for Sony's to mod, should I assume that a tv with only composite is probably too low rent to be worth the trouble?


Not necessarily. Look for a service manual then look for a Jungle IC then look up its datasheet to see if it accepts RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:44 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
As far as a buying guide for Sony's to mod, should I assume that a tv with only composite is probably too low rent to be worth the trouble?


Not necessarily. Look for a service manual then look for a Jungle IC then look up its datasheet to see if it accepts RGB.


I meant that the lower range models' tubes are probably not as good as something with s-video or component.

The model in question is KV-20S90


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:28 am 


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leonk wrote:
And the 2 people above that are poo poo'ing RGB (REALLY!?) obviously don't have an RGB TV next to their component one to do A/B comparison. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I compared RGB and component out from the PS2 Slim on a PVM20L5 and didn't notice any difference. There may well be some variables at play here, but on good equipment component shouldn't be worse.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:35 am 



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Einzelherz wrote:
As far as a buying guide for Sony's to mod, should I assume that a tv with only composite is probably too low rent to be worth the trouble?


Even if a TV has only RF-in, it can be modded to support composite video and RGB through SCART and deliver an excellent picture. My Zenith test project was proof of this. I would look for any TV that has a decent picture, stereo sound, and an OSD. Oh, and you'll really want to have access to either the TV's service manual or the jungle IC's datasheet to be able to tinker with it.

Einzelherz wrote:
I meant that the lower range models' tubes are probably not as good as something with s-video or component.

The model in question is KV-20S90


Not necessarily. Any Trinitron will probably have a very nice picture. The only downside to a set like that is that you may have some systems which don't use RGB, and then you'll want the S-Vid or YUV input. If you watch Craigslist you ought to be able to find a Trinitron that includes the inputs. Having just worked on the KV-27FS12, I do quite like having the jungle IC on a separate MA board.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:24 am 



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Ed Oscuro wrote:
leonk wrote:
And the 2 people above that are poo poo'ing RGB (REALLY!?) obviously don't have an RGB TV next to their component one to do A/B comparison. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I compared RGB and component out from the PS2 Slim on a PVM20L5 and didn't notice any difference. There may well be some variables at play here, but on good equipment component shouldn't be worse.


I don't know the history of your PVM, but mine was a pull from the editing studio of a prestigious film and television college in my city (as they updated to all digital - now using Sony OLED broadcast monitors) It has a pedigree of professional tuning along with it. Using my PS2 slim with Monster component cables vs the RGB cables from retro cables (the lady on eBay) I notice a difference. The component has a slight edge noise on sharp edges. The colors also don't pop out as much.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:05 am 


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It might be better if this RGB / Component discussion was broken off into another thread so this one can remain a resource for people looking to modify their televisions.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:47 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
As far as a buying guide for Sony's to mod, should I assume that a tv with only composite is probably too low rent to be worth the trouble?


Not necessarily. Look for a service manual then look for a Jungle IC then look up its datasheet to see if it accepts RGB.


According to this it appears that it has the right IC and accepts RGB. I don't see anything about sync here, though.

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/159690 ... =23#manual

The seller wants $25 and says it's hardly been used. I'm mostly concerned that I'll buy it and be unable to do the mod correctly.


Last edited by Einzelherz on Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:55 pm 


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leonk wrote:
I don't know the history of your PVM, but mine was a pull from the editing studio of a prestigious film and television college in my city (as they updated to all digital - now using Sony OLED broadcast monitors) It has a pedigree of professional tuning along with it. Using my PS2 slim with Monster component cables vs the RGB cables from retro cables (the lady on eBay) I notice a difference. The component has a slight edge noise on sharp edges. The colors also don't pop out as much.


Mine inspected buttholes in Florida. I have adjusted it with a sharpened coat hanger. And yes, I can tell the difference in RGB vs Component. Mostly in the depth/richness of the reds/blues/blacks.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:45 pm 


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leonk wrote:
I don't know the history of your PVM, but mine was a pull from the editing studio of a prestigious film and television college in my city (as they updated to all digital - now using Sony OLED broadcast monitors) It has a pedigree of professional tuning along with it..

Leonk's 20 year old endoscopy monitor has pedigree lol
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:32 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:40 pm 



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What about RGB vs Component on the Wii and GameCube? Component on an NTSC GameCube/Wii can do 480p, while RGB SCART on a PAL GameCube/Wii can only do 480i/576i.


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