TV RGB mod thread

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MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

BobWoggle wrote:Well the parts came in and I done did the thing. The hardest part was finding some volts to stick in the blanking pin; it took me an hour to realize 9 would be fine.

https://imgur.com/a/XWtDt if that's not what I call "pretty much okay," then I don't know what is. Were it not for the convergence issues this could very well have been a religious experience.
FWIW The manual shows IC103 is the 5V regulator. Can see it on page 41. Pin 5 of IC103 is the 5V output.

Cheering you got it working. Shots look great.

What technique did you use to do the mod?
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

buttersoft wrote:
When you add another 75ohm termination resistor to a line that already has a 470ohm termination the total resistance is 136ohm.
wut?
Yeah I was totally wrong, you get 64.6ohms.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-paralresist.htm ( highlight the result as the numbers so large it goes out of the box)
And the terminations were not even 470 they are 430 I'm pretty sure, anyway its all just numbers :P
Resistors in parallel are almost as confusing as me when i've had no sleep. I must stop that

Anyway disregarding my previous confusing posts what I was trying to get at is that all SONY BG-3R chassis that I have RGB modded via the teletext header ended up with brightness issues with OSD and console.
MarkOZ had the same issue with the BG-3R, and upon investigation I found that the OSD and TELETEXT module are directly tied together, they share the same vpp and only 1 can be activated at a time so there is no interference.
So we have been connecting the console and OSD directly together, which causes all types of issues.

Mark OZ was connecting 75 ohm termination resistors and the chassis already had 430-470 ohm termination resistors.
When in parallel it was close enough to 75 that it shouldn't of been a problem for the console but the OSD takes a huge hit from its Vpp being grounded so heavily. But the console is still to washed out and bright in this configuration also.
Even if you switch the original resistors on the OSD lines out for 75ohm the console is still too bright and black levels are all screwy, like the OSD is amping the console rgb feed.

If you wire your coupling caps to the OSD coupling caps the OSD and console terminations will remain separate, BUT the OSD will cause the console to ghost heavily. I think its the other cap backfeeding, I'm sure we already know all this and this is why we OSD hack units with only 1 RGB input.

So I tried a proper OSD hack on these units and yep, black is as black as midnight. :D

I'm pretty annoyed as it means I now have to reopen 4-5 units and switch them to an OSD hack.
But at the same time the picture is superb and no menu settings need to be changed between consoles.

You live you learn...
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BobWoggle
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by BobWoggle »

Pretty basic CCD/PiP replacement, cut off ccd's rgb signals and stuck my own in, wired Ys to vcc and sync to y. I should probably add some installation pictures to that gallery.
:^)
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

BobWoggle wrote:Pretty basic CCD/PiP replacement, cut off ccd's rgb signals and stuck my own in, wired Ys to vcc and sync to y. I should probably add some installation pictures to that gallery.
Did you wire directly to y on the Jungle?
I did this for the first time last night because a Panasonic set would not take sync via svideo or component, and I found that the sync wire needed to be shielded as it was picking up a lot of interference. all I had to do was tug at the sync wire or pull in under the AC input and it would freak out

Fixed the issue by realising that the most inputs on the back of the set are make or break.
So the set will not allow signal via those inputs until a plug is actually in the socket. Jumpers fixed that.
MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

Syntax wrote:
buttersoft wrote:
When you add another 75ohm termination resistor to a line that already has a 470ohm termination the total resistance is 136ohm.
wut?
Yeah I was totally wrong, you get 64.6ohms.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-paralresist.htm ( highlight the result as the numbers so large it goes out of the box)
And the terminations were not even 470 they are 430 I'm pretty sure, anyway its all just numbers :P
Resistors in parallel are almost as confusing as me when i've had no sleep. I must stop that

Anyway disregarding my previous confusing posts what I was trying to get at is that all SONY BG-3R chassis that I have RGB modded via the teletext header ended up with brightness issues with OSD and console.
MarkOZ had the same issue with the BG-3R, and upon investigation I found that the OSD and TELETEXT module are directly tied together, they share the same vpp and only 1 can be activated at a time so there is no interference.
So we have been connecting the console and OSD directly together, which causes all types of issues.

Mark OZ was connecting 75 ohm termination resistors and the chassis already had 430-470 ohm termination resistors.
When in parallel it was close enough to 75 that it shouldn't of been a problem for the console but the OSD takes a huge hit from its Vpp being grounded so heavily. But the console is still to washed out and bright in this configuration also.
Even if you switch the original resistors on the OSD lines out for 75ohm the console is still too bright and black levels are all screwy, like the OSD is amping the console rgb feed.

If you wire your coupling caps to the OSD coupling caps the OSD and console terminations will remain separate, BUT the OSD will cause the console to ghost heavily. I think its the other cap backfeeding, I'm sure we already know all this and this is why we OSD hack units with only 1 RGB input.

So I tried a proper OSD hack on these units and yep, black is as black as midnight. :D

I'm pretty annoyed as it means I now have to reopen 4-5 units and switch them to an OSD hack.
But at the same time the picture is superb and no menu settings need to be changed between consoles.

You live you learn...

Just a quick thought on this one....

What about putting a diode on the external RGB lines so that the OSD lines can't get to ground through them? Then something like an 90ohm resistor termination on external RGB lines? I know I've been mistaken about the need for diodes before but this seems like maybe a good spot.

470 and 90 ohm resistors in parallel would result in 75.5 ohms (430 and 90 is 74.4) for the external RGB lines. The diode should mean the OSD remains at it's initial 470 (430 whatever).
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BobWoggle
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by BobWoggle »

I just wired my sync from the rca jack to the y pin on the header that connects the IO board and the jungle board. I'm fairly certain it goes straight to the jungle from there but not 100% sure. I figured that with the way the boards slot together, the fewer wires I could have dangling between the better.
:^)
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

MarkOZLAD wrote:

Just a quick thought on this one....

What about putting a diode on the external RGB lines so that the OSD lines can't get to ground through them? Then something like an 90ohm resistor termination on external RGB lines? I know I've been mistaken about the need for diodes before but this seems like maybe a good spot.

470 and 90 ohm resistors in parallel would result in 75.5 ohms (430 and 90 is 74.4) for the external RGB lines. The diode should mean the OSD remains at it's initial 470 (430 whatever).
Diodes have around 0.7v drop. Pretty sure our consoles are .7vpp. I think the OSD is less.
You'd wire them to the OSD lines and live with dim OSD if it worked. The OSD may be constantly feeding the lines tho which could be the cause of the ghosting.
I'll try small diodes off the OSD clamping caps and maybe remove OSD terminations to restore it a bit and report back. Not crossing my fingers though
MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

Syntax wrote: Diodes have around 0.7v drop. Pretty sure our consoles are .7vpp. I think the OSD is less.
Well that is both some coincidence and very sucky. I wasn't aware of that.

I don't have to deal with such inconveniences as the real world when writing software!

Following your progress has made me understand why the mod of the BG-1S chassis was so much more successful. The OSD on that chassis is muxed into the RGB outputs. Much easier.
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djcalle
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by djcalle »

Hi Guys,
I pondered creating a new thread for this but thought it'd make more sense to post here. please let me know otherwise and I will create a new thread or post elsewhere.

Thanks to the great work of mikejmoffitt, Voultar, Syntax and others, I decided to mod my first CRT. Really great information out here.
It's mostly working but the blacks are grey. I was hoping some of you had some suggestions on what to try next.
Below is a summary of how I wired things and the troubleshooting steps taken

https://i.imgur.com/5pIBQil.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kv3uaOy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/B050Dqm.jpg

-The TV is a Sony KV-PF14P10. The Jungle IC is a CXA2139S, which I could not find a proper datasheet of, only screenshots from service manuals using this chip. Based on previous comments and the similar pinout, this chips likely behaves very similarly to other CXA21xx jungle ICs
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/87674 ... tml#manual
Image

These are the steps I've taken to execute the mod:
-lifted pins 28, 27,26,25 of CXA2139S
-added 0.1uf caps to the RGB lines (28,27,26) and terminated 75ohm resistors to ground.
-Tied a 5V to the blanking pin (25) and put a 100ohm resistor in between as per diagram
The VCC of CXA2139S is 9v, I tried with that too with same results, but by fear of feeding voltage too high to the blanking pin I wired 5v to it.
-made sure to ground the 3 RGB pins sync pins on the female scart connector
-I am using composite for sync as that’s all that’s available. I tried to see if I could inject sync directly into the CXA2139S, but really not sure how to after reviewing all available pins on CXA2139S.

The results:
-The picture is very sharp and colors appear to be correct (too bright without 75ohm termination)
-The blacks are very dull, they basically are grey
-The picture is shifted to the left (I understand this is most likely due to my sync input going through composite)
-When no SART connector is connected or the console is off I get a grey screen with vertical lines on the left side of the screen:
https://i.imgur.com/5pIBQil.jpg

-Reading posts by Voultar, he mentions “black restoration” which sounds like what I need :D. However the proposed solution is to use 0.1uf ceramic caps as per service manual which I have definitely used.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

Panasonic Quintrix F
Chassis: MD2L
Model: TC68P90A
Jungle: TB1237AN
RGB Hack method: OSD Hack
Pins
22 - Blanking , Wire 5v to the OSD side of the first resistor the pin passes through for safety
23 - Red
24 - Green
25 - Blue

Notes:
RGB lines: Remove the leg of each 100n capacitor OSD side of the pins, keep the leg that goes directly to the jungle in place(these lifted legs are your main RGB in, centre switch), and wire your OSD lines to the holes. Remember to terminate your RGB lines console side with 75ohm resistors, I usually do it on the scart connector

Many of the rear inputs are make or break connections, the TV will only allow sync or audio to pass through if there are plugs in the sockets.
You can bypass this by using the luma channel on svideo for sync and bridging the svideo grounds, wire your audio to that AV channels inputs and cut the trace that connects left audio (white) to right(red).
Image
I have a bit of a soft spot for cube tvs, and even though this is flat screen I grabbed it to see what it could do.
I was instantly impressed with the sound as cube TVs usually have poor audio.
When I removed the case I found out pretty fast why it sounded so good.
Image

An OSD hack produced a nice clear picture.
Image
Image
Image
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BobWoggle
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by BobWoggle »

@djcalle I don't know about your black levels but you should be fine to stick 9v in blanking if that's what the chip runs on, and you can stick sync into either of the y/cvbs pins (4 and 8 ), those are your luma.
:^)
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buttersoft
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by buttersoft »

MarkOZLAD wrote:470 and 90 ohm resistors in parallel would result in 75.5 ohms (430 and 90 is 74.4) for the external RGB lines. The diode should mean the OSD remains at it's initial 470 (430 whatever).
For electrical termination i believe you have about a 30% window. So for a nominal 75R termination anything between 60R and 90R should actually work fine. Unless i'm misinformed there, of course.
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

buttersoft wrote:
MarkOZLAD wrote:470 and 90 ohm resistors in parallel would result in 75.5 ohms (430 and 90 is 74.4) for the external RGB lines. The diode should mean the OSD remains at it's initial 470 (430 whatever).
For electrical termination i believe you have about a 30% window. So for a nominal 75R termination anything between 60R and 90R should actually work fine. Unless i'm misinformed there, of course.
There is a noticeable difference in the picture.
75 is the correct termination.
djcalle
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by djcalle »

BobWoggle wrote:@djcalle I don't know about your black levels but you should be fine to stick 9v in blanking if that's what the chip runs on, and you can stick sync into either of the y/cvbs pins (4 and 8 ), those are your luma.
Thanks for the response man! I'll try feeding the sync directly to the jungle IC.
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

BobWoggle wrote:@djcalle I don't know about your black levels but you should be fine to stick 9v in blanking if that's what the chip runs on, and you can stick sync into either of the y/cvbs pins (4 and 8 ), those are your luma.
5v is the correct voltage for these Jungles to blank and I don't see any point wiring directly to the Jungle for sync, its the same as wiring to the back of the RCA socket but more work and less interference protection.

This set and Jungle reminded me of a set, I swear I had done one before....

SONY KV-PF21P10
Chassis ?
Jungle CXA2139S

RGB hack method - External RGB inputs on jungle IC
Draw backs - Set only has composite inputs so shifted picture unless tuned.

Looks like I removed the original .01 clamping caps and put some .1s in their place, also removed the termination resistors(r064...ect) there and replaced them with 75ohm ones in the scart plug, jumped from a plug hole to the jungle ic.

Black levels and everything else are fine, nice little set.

I think you've left the original terminations connected or your caps are too small dude, make sure they have the number 104 on them

Image
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Image
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BobWoggle
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by BobWoggle »

my bad on that, I really should hold off on giving advice until I know what I'm talking about.
:^)
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rx7turbo233
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by rx7turbo233 »

hi i have a shart 25r-s100 and i would like to convert it to rgb this is the pif,sif,chroma video deflector chip number ix3354ce and the system control chip is ix3528ce im trying to find the data sheet if anyone can help to convert to rgb it would be greatly appreciated
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rx7turbo233
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by rx7turbo233 »

here is the diagram of the tv circuit

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/78077 ... e=4#manual

if some one can help me if it rgb able to be modified
djcalle
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by djcalle »

@Syntax, thanks so much for your detailed response, much appreciated.

I am puzzled about the wiring, I thought the EXT RGB pins from the jungle IC had to be isolated from the board?
Anyway I have tried to draw a simple diagram of what I have done, I am assuming it is wrong:
Image
Initially I used a switch to wire all 4 jungle IC pins back to the board, but removed it later as a troubleshooting step.
As you can see my caps are 0.1uf (104)

The KV-PF21P10’s jungle IC is a CXA2130S not a CXA2139S according to the service manual:
http://www.datasheetspdf.com/PDF/KV-PF21P10/709048/1 Page 41
Do you remember for sure that it was a CXA2139S? maybe it doesn’t really matter. Both TVs seem to use the BG-3S chassis anyway

Interesting that you soldered your RGB lines on CN307. I just checked and my chassis has the same connector.
Are these pins used for anything? It looks like they are not based on your 3 jumper wires from the jungleIC to CN307

It’s great that you had good success with this set! Good to know that CBVS only is a drawback for sync, I do have a 34” Wega that has a CXA2130S jungle IC and svideo+component inputs so if I manage to get this 14” to work, I’ll tackle that 80KG beast

Unrelated question, and I think the answer is prob no but would wiring a svideo connector to pin 4 and 2 of the jungle IC (Yin and Cin) allow for svideo in?
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

djcalle wrote:@Syntax, thanks so much for your detailed response, much appreciated.

I am puzzled about the wiring, I thought the EXT RGB pins from the jungle IC had to be isolated from the board?
Anyway I have tried to draw a simple diagram of what I have done, I am assuming it is wrong:
Image
Initially I used a switch to wire all 4 jungle IC pins back to the board, but removed it later as a troubleshooting step.
As you can see my caps are 0.1uf (104)

The KV-PF21P10’s jungle IC is a CXA2130S not a CXA2139S according to the service manual:
http://www.datasheetspdf.com/PDF/KV-PF21P10/709048/1 Page 41
Do you remember for sure that it was a CXA2139S? maybe it doesn’t really matter. Both TVs seem to use the BG-3S chassis anyway

Interesting that you soldered your RGB lines on CN307. I just checked and my chassis has the same connector.
Are these pins used for anything? It looks like they are not based on your 3 jumper wires from the jungleIC to CN307

It’s great that you had good success with this set! Good to know that CBVS only is a drawback for sync, I do have a 34” Wega that has a CXA2130S jungle IC and svideo+component inputs so if I manage to get this 14” to work, I’ll tackle that 80KG beast

Unrelated question, and I think the answer is prob no but would wiring a svideo connector to pin 4 and 2 of the jungle IC (Yin and Cin) allow for svideo in?
When I read your post I did a history search for the Jungle IC and it came up red, So I looked at the service manual and found a set I have that looked similar. When I look for CXA2130S in my history now its a new search so I'm pretty sure I got the Jungle ID correct. Any case CXA2130S looks to be the same pinout for what we need.
I opened it for just you this morning to check what I had done on the install and the Jungle IC ID. I thought maybe it had an odd blanking system but no. Its super straight forward.
The pins I had laying around from a Pi zero and it made the install much easier for me.
I prefer to use the stock traces and shielded cable where I can to avoid interference.

You don't need a switch for this set, just 75ohm terminations, 100n(104)caps and 5v to blanking.
Lifting the pins is fine really, and your install picture looks fine also. It leaves me confused as to why there is an issue.

For trouble shooting put a switch on the 5v blanking with no console connected. See if it changes the screen.
MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

rx7turbo233 wrote:here is the diagram of the tv circuit

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/78077 ... e=4#manual

if some one can help me if it rgb able to be modified
After a small amount of investigation it looks like you should be able to do an OSD hack to mod this TV. The Jungle Chip, "IX3354CE" accepts RGB and Blanking signals from the micro controller "IX3492CE" chip.

FYI the "IX3354CE" chip is really a "X3354CE" chip which is really an "LA76843N" chip. This chip has a very brief datasheet!
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rx7turbo233
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by rx7turbo233 »

Oh so should I take the rgb inputs off the micro prossesor and wire it straight to the rgb inputs to the and I should add see voltage to the blanking osd input what voltage should I start with and also I should terminate the rgb signals off the micro controller and should I isolate the blanking signal from the micro controller and use a switch to go from me controlling the osd when I set up rgb so I should isolate the micro controller from changing the rgb signals with a 6 way switch , I need to add 75 oh resistors
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rx7turbo233
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by rx7turbo233 »

To ground with a and use 104 1 uf caps and make sure it doesn't have any resistors on that line , I'm trying to fiquire where to take the rgb signal away fromand send it to what chip the jungle chip then bypass the micro controller , I hope I'm on the right track
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Pikkon
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Pikkon »

On my rgb modded sony trinitron kv-32fs100 the color control and hue on the osd is disabled when I use rgb but the other controls work just fine like brightness and picture,you guys think it's hardware or software as would like to re-enable them.
MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

rx7turbo233 wrote:To ground with a and use 104 1 uf caps and make sure it doesn't have any resistors on that line , I'm trying to fiquire where to take the rgb signal away fromand send it to what chip the jungle chip then bypass the micro controller , I hope I'm on the right track
Inspect the chassis manually. Look for capacitors near the pins 14, 15 and 16 of the IC201 (visual inspection and multimeter). The legs of these caps furthest away from the chip are should be an appropriate "snipping point" where you can disconnect the OSD RGB by desoldering and later inject your own RGB.
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

Pikkon wrote:On my rgb modded sony trinitron kv-32fs100 the color control and hue on the osd is disabled when I use rgb but the other controls work just fine like brightness and picture,you guys think it's hardware or software as would like to re-enable them.
No doing the hack bypasses that.
To control color you can add pots to each color channel.
Tim sells 6 gang 10k pots very cheap and they are great for turning all 3 colors up or down at the same time.
You'll have a hard time finding them cheaper anywhere else. http://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=2& ... how_detail
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Pikkon
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Pikkon »

Awesome,that will work just fine.

For now I removed my 75 ohm resisters and replaced them with have 200 ohm variable resistors on the rgb lines and that fixed my brightness issue,picture is better but adjusting the color would be the next best thing.
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Syntax
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Syntax »

I meant put the pots in line on the RGB feed lol, not as terminations. They should stay at 75ohm

In series will control color.
I cant remember if before the clamping caps or after is best.
You'll only need 1k pots really it wont need much adjustment.
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rx7turbo233
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by rx7turbo233 »

So pins 14,15,16 I'm snipping at the legs of the capacitors coming into the osd and I'm hooking my rgb wires from my game console their to the osd input of pin 14,15,16 then I'm I'm feeding power to the rgb vcc on pin 18 I should add somewhere around 1 volt up to 9 volts to get it to blank to rgb the circuit says it takes 9 volts on their what should I do about the black pin 17
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Pikkon
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Pikkon »

Syntax wrote:I meant put the pots in line on the RGB feed lol, not as terminations. They should stay at 75ohm

In series will control color.
I cant remember if before the clamping caps or after is best.
You'll only need 1k pots really it wont need much adjustment.

I know about the 75 termination,just wanted something to mess around with,can dial it back to normal easy.

As for the pot I found one on ebay for under 11 usd so I'll grab that,thanks again.
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