TV RGB mod thread

Akina86 · Joined: 08 Sep 2018 Posts: 2

here is a quick video showing the problem i am having. the information is in my previous posts and in the description of the video. i just need to get some ideas on how to get rid of that wave in the screen. thanks.

<iframe width="1075" height="605" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TISjF-BAcqE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

I have a question for some of the guys who performed an RGB mod...

Is using the OSD the best or only way to add rpm in?

I usually like to start projects by looking at how the pros do it. In this case, that's relatively easy because all or most major brands 19" and above have an almost identicle version made for Europe or Japan that already has an RGB scart or JP21 socket.

In most cases, the RGB scart socket either sits on a detachable AV input board or built-in to a region specific chassis / main board. E.g:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toshiba-SD10 ... SwDEtZ6MFM

I was thinking / hoping that maybe it is possible to replace the US region AV board with the equivalent part from Europe as the model are otherwise the same. I.e. Sony didn't design completely different TVs for the UK than the US or Japan.

Importing the AV input board is a lot easier and cheaper than a hole crt tv...

It seems like sacrificing the OSD could be an issue on Sony Trinitrons that rely on them for any service menu adjustments (which are necessary regularly for arcade games).

Am I missing something?

Maybe a chassis replacement is a better option if you can find a working universal arcade chassis or a compatible replacement chassis from Europe...

viletim · Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 469 Location: Sydney, Australia

Classicgamer wrote:

Am I missing something?

TV sets are (were) repaired at the component level. Even inside its service life a replacement board/module was a very expensive thing if it was available at all. Where are you going to get one from now, 20 years on?

BTW, TV chassis aren't nearly as modular and universal as you assume. They do all fundamentally work the same way though.

viletim · Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 469 Location: Sydney, Australia

MarkOZLAD wrote:

arithmaldor wrote:

Jackpot!

This might be tough lol

I'm not sure but from the schematics I'm finding for chassis that use this chip, it looks like this chip generally expects Digital RGB signal for OSD.

It MAY be able to be changed to accept analog RGB in service menu but I can't promise anything.

https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/703591/ETC/M61262BFP/1

http://monitor.espec.ws/files/china_m37160__m61260_chassis_29m03_135.pdf

The term fast blanking in usually used in connection with SCART. It's a hint that in can do analog, but I agree that it probably needs to be 'turned on'.

viletim · Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 469 Location: Sydney, Australia

Zhoul wrote:

2) Would a 27" Sony (circa 1989?) that lacks s-video be too much for a novice RGB modder?

I'm considering buying a mint condition black 27" Sony. These sets give off a PVM vibe and have a better aesthetic than pretty much any of the newer consumer sets IMO. On the downside, it has manually operated dials on the set to control sharpness, brightness, etc. No idea if these sets have a hidden service menu to adjust settings like geometry (probably not). Thus, adjusting the picture could prove difficult. It only accepts RF and composite as inputs, but likely has RGB located on the jungle chip. Not 100% sure on that, as it's service manual seems to be hidden from the internet.

It's too old for this method. In needs to be mid '90s or later to have a RGB OSD input. This is when it became a standard jungle chip feature. It's less likely there's an unused RGB input on earlier sets as somebody would have had to pay for it.

Zhoul · Joined: 05 May 2008 Posts: 18

MarkOZLAD wrote:

1) Generally TV's aren't modded to accept a certain type of sync. In fact I always just pump sync through an AV port. Some TV's handle all sync types, some have problems with different types of sync.

2) If you tell us the model number/chassis number we can tell you if a TV can be modded. Without a schematic (or opening up the set and checking out the chips in the absence of a schematic) we can't know if a set can be modded. It comes down to each individual TV model/chassis whether modification is possible, cannot really generalise to 1989 Sony no S-video. I would, however, suggest that 1989 is an early model for using the techniques we champion on this thread.

You're right, Mark. It wasn't helpful to generalize. The model number is KV-27TS20. Unfortunately, if viletim's info is correct, an RGB Mod may be out of the question for this model (circa 1989-1990).

viletim wrote:

It's too old for this method. In needs to be mid '90s or later to have a RGB OSD input. This is when it became a standard jungle chip feature. It's less likely there's an unused RGB input on earlier sets as somebody would have had to pay for it.

I was afraid of that. Thanks for the heads up.

So, if I'm to abandon hopes of modding the KV-27TS20, does anyone have any recommendations for a 24-27 inch curved Trinny? I know about the rare XBR models and I know to look out for mid to late 90s sets. Oh, and make sure it has s-video at the very least. Yeah, that helps narrow the choice down somewhat, but that's still pretty vague. This methodology assumes that all sets are equal. If I were looking for a flat screen, the internet is literally screaming to find a FV300\FV310 above all else, but when it comes to curved sets, the choices don't appear quite as obvious.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

viletim wrote:

Classicgamer wrote:

Am I missing something?

TV sets are (were) repaired at the component level. Even inside its service life a replacement board/module was a very expensive thing if it was available at all. Where are you going to get one from now, 20 years on?

BTW, TV chassis aren't nearly as modular and universal as you assume. They do all fundamentally work the same way though.

I understand that tv chassis are not universal. That's not what I meant. I was talking about how a European Sony Trinitron with RGB did not differ much from the equivalent American Sony Trinitron model except the tuner and inputs board.

Every Sony Trinitron TV I ever owned (except my 14") in the UK was compatible with both PAL and NTSC 3.58, could accept either a 50hz or 60hz signal (through any connection) and was switchable between 120v and 240v. The only reason for this is that it was more economical to design one model which could be adapted to each market.

Even if it is not possible to simply switch out the American input board for a Euro one, maybe the Euro schematics might be useful for identifying a neater way to add an RGB in.

On acquiring the parts, I see them regularly enough on ebay.co.uk but a more reliable method might be to see if you could buy one of the used Trinitrons (which are still regularly available) and asking the seller to ship the board or chassis and trash the rest.

In my case, I could ask my dad (who still lives in the UK) to buy a crt and ship the board but that is only worth the effort if some of the more technical members here examine the euro schematics and spot a convenient way to switch an AV board or even to adapt one.

I guess it's more frustrating for me as I remember how cheap and easy it was ( and still is) to buy a 27" rgb display that made a near perfect arcade monitor vs here where a 25" or larger rgb display costs north of $1,000...

Pretty soon it will be cheaper to ship a 25" RGB Sony tv like this from the UK than buying any decent size rgb monitor here....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-trinitr ... Sw4WFbjSO2

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

viletim wrote:

Zhoul wrote:

2) Would a 27" Sony (circa 1989?) that lacks s-video be too much for a novice RGB modder?

I'm considering buying a mint condition black 27" Sony. These sets give off a PVM vibe and have a better aesthetic than pretty much any of the newer consumer sets IMO. On the downside, it has manually operated dials on the set to control sharpness, brightness, etc. No idea if these sets have a hidden service menu to adjust settings like geometry (probably not). Thus, adjusting the picture could prove difficult. It only accepts RF and composite as inputs, but likely has RGB located on the jungle chip. Not 100% sure on that, as it's service manual seems to be hidden from the internet.

It's too old for this method. In needs to be mid '90s or later to have a RGB OSD input. This is when it became a standard jungle chip feature. It's less likely there's an unused RGB input on earlier sets as somebody would have had to pay for it.

Why does it have to be unused? Sorry if this is a stupid question. I can follow instructions on simple electronics projects but I know little about the fine details inside CRT TVs...

If we assume that we have no use for the RF, composite or Svideo input in this day and age and.... that we would probably just trash a crt tv if we can't add RGB, are there any other places where RGB could be fed in to replace an existing input?

I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that NYSC decoders and SVIdeo output rgb at some point inside the TV. Is this wrong?

Where did the RGB signal feed into on the old American XBRs (the few that had those 34 pin rgb ports)?

Also, what extra parts are used to add RGB to European and Japanese TVs as they manage to retain the OSD while in RGB mode?

MKL · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 281

viletim wrote:

It's too old for this method. In needs to be mid '90s or later to have a RGB OSD input. This is when it became a standard jungle chip feature. It's less likely there's an unused RGB input on earlier sets as somebody would have had to pay for it.

European sets of the pre-scart years (1980-85) do have chroma processors with unused RGB inputs such as TDA3560 or TDA3562 and sync ICs such as TDA2591 or TDA2595 which make them very easy to mod (not that anybody is ever going to do that :lol:

).

MKL · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 281

European Sony chassis are very different from the US ones. They used a lot of semiconductors that were commonly used in Europe even in non-Sony sets. Stuff like PSU control ICs like TDA2164, east-west correction ICs like TEA2031, vertical deflection ICs like TDA8170 or RGB processors like TDA4580. A US chassis of the same time didn't have any of that. The idea that Sony designed their chassis so they could be used in different regions with only a few changes here and there is not true. Also, European sets were 220-240V only.

MarkOZLAD · Joined: 18 May 2017 Posts: 364

Classicgamer wrote:

It seems like sacrificing the OSD could be an issue on Sony Trinitrons that rely on them for any service menu adjustments (which are necessary regularly for arcade games).

Hopefully one day we'll get the title post to mention the OSD/External RGB mix (mux) method. In most cases you do not need to use and OSD snip method...and even if you do use the OSD snip method, you don't actually lose the OSD, you have a switch to turn it on and off.

Classicgamer wrote:

Am I missing something?

Likely the necessary time spent researching the process.

MarkOZLAD · Joined: 18 May 2017 Posts: 364

Zhoul wrote:

The model number is KV-27TS20. Unfortunately, if viletim's info is correct, an RGB Mod may be out of the question for this model (circa 1989-1990)

I can confirm that this set, and any that have the Sony P-3A chassis, cannot be modded using the techniques championed on this thread. The Jungle does not have RGB inputs (used or unused....)

arithmaldor · Joined: 07 Jun 2017 Posts: 122

That's right everybody, I did it.

https://youtu.be/igmfy8c8L-c

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

MKL wrote:

viletim wrote:

It's too old for this method. In needs to be mid '90s or later to have a RGB OSD input. This is when it became a standard jungle chip feature. It's less likely there's an unused RGB input on earlier sets as somebody would have had to pay for it.

European sets of the pre-scart years (1980-85) do have chroma processors with unused RGB inputs such as TDA3560 or TDA3562 and sync ICs such as TDA2591 or TDA2595 which make them very easy to mod (not that anybody is ever going to do that :lol:

).

Nobody in Europe or Japan as 90's crt TVs with RGB scart are easy to buy. Any mods are only going to be American TVs.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

MKL wrote:

European Sony chassis are very different from the US ones. They used a lot of semiconductors that were commonly used in Europe even in non-Sony sets. Stuff like PSU control ICs like TDA2164, east-west correction ICs like TEA2031, vertical deflection ICs like TDA8170 or RGB processors like TDA4580. A US chassis of the same time didn't have any of that. The idea that Sony designed their chassis so they could be used in different regions with only a few changes here and there is not true. Also, European sets were 220-240V only.

I'm obviously not making my point or phrasing my question clearly....

All Sony Trinitron TVs used Trinitron tubes. I want to know how rgb was fed into those tubes by Sony in regions where RGB was included. If it makes the discussion easier, let's focus on the Japanese models with their JP21 rgb connectors. Japan used NTSC and 120v (or close enough). A Japanese TV could have been brought to America, plugged in and used without any transformers or color space converters.

The chassis being different isn't the issue if you are going to switch out a US chassis for Euro or Jap one. It's whether a Jap or Euro chassis is compatible with American Trinitron Tubes.

On the how, if Euro and Jap TVs have additional chips or decoders for RGB, is it possible to add a comparable chip or board to an American CRT tv at the point where all signals are fed to the guns?

Syntax · Joined: 09 Aug 2017 Posts: 1001 Location: Australia

The only time one would consider swapping a chassis with another compatible one from a different region is

If the jungle from your region is programmed to not accept RGB INPUT ( Id just swap jungles)

If you don't have the skills to mod a set and install a scart plug, but have the ability to swap a chassis and completely retune all geometry ect..

Understand what were getting at now?

MKL · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 281

Classicgamer wrote:

The chassis being different isn't the issue if you are going to switch out a US chassis for Euro or Jap one. It's whether a Jap or Euro chassis is compatible with American Trinitron Tubes.

Yes, the tubes used in Euro and US models are largely the same. For instance, the US model KV-24FS100 and the Euro model KV-25FX30 share the same tube and the same yoke so the chassis of the Euro model could be used to drive the tube of the US model (and vice versa). The downsides are that the chassis wouldn't fit the case and would require 220V.

What's impossible is to modify the US chassis by swapping the jungle IC over from the Euro chassis. These ICs are too complex, have too many functions and connect to the rest of the chassis in different ways.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

MKL wrote:

Classicgamer wrote:

The chassis being different isn't the issue if you are going to switch out a US chassis for Euro or Jap one. It's whether a Jap or Euro chassis is compatible with American Trinitron Tubes.

Yes, the tubes used in Euro and US models are largely the same. For instance, the US model KV-24FS100 and the Euro model KV-25FX30 share the same tube and the same yoke so the chassis of the Euro model could be used to drive the tube of the US model (and vice versa). The downsides are that the chassis wouldn't fit the case and would require 220V.

What's impossible is to modify the US chassis by swapping the jungle IC over from the Euro chassis. These ICs are too complex, have too many functions and connect to the rest of the chassis in different ways.

Thanks. That answer the first question about whether it is possible to import and install the equivalent Uk version chassis.

I think it also answers my other question if the point on not being able to swap the jungle IC means you couldn't swap a US AV input board for a Euro one with a Scart socket.

Needing 220-240v is really not an issue here. Transformers are cheap and easy to find on eBay. It is also possible to just add a 240v outlet in America. I installed a bunch in my garage for my CNC machine. It might need a smaller adapter to go from 240v over 2 hots / ground to 240v hot earth ground.

Are you sure the case size would be an issue? I have American Trinitrons here and they look about the same (size) to the ones I owned in the UK. Either way, case mods would be the easiest part of the project.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

I think this is a better way to go potentially:

http://www.jomac.net.au/products/chassis-new/

This guy makes custom universal arcade chassis for transplant into consumer CRT TVs. Apparently, you just tell him the number of pins and give him the numbers from the yoke etc and he does the rest. The way he tells it, he can make an arcade chassis to fit almost any common consumer tubes.

MarkOZLAD · Joined: 18 May 2017 Posts: 364

Classicgamer wrote:

I think this is a better way to go potentially:

http://www.jomac.net.au/products/chassis-new/

This guy makes custom universal arcade chassis for transplant into consumer CRT TVs. Apparently, you just tell him the number of pins and give him the numbers from the yoke etc and he does the rest. The way he tells it, he can make an arcade chassis to fit almost any common consumer tubes.

Of course you can use a jomac chassis if you want but where is the fun in that? Any idiot can do that. Plus it won't work with Trinitron.

MarkOZLAD · Joined: 18 May 2017 Posts: 364

arithmaldor wrote:

That's right everybody, I did it.

Came up great, really like that picture.

Did the jungle just accept the RGB without having to change any settings around Digital OSD etc? I assume it just worked.

I'm thinking that analog RGB inputs can handle digital RGB signals as long as the voltage levels don't go above the maximums for the RGB pins.

lukilla · Joined: 14 Apr 2017 Posts: 54

MarkOZLAD wrote:

Classicgamer wrote:

I think this is a better way to go potentially:

http://www.jomac.net.au/products/chassis-new/

This guy makes custom universal arcade chassis for transplant into consumer CRT TVs. Apparently, you just tell him the number of pins and give him the numbers from the yoke etc and he does the rest. The way he tells it, he can make an arcade chassis to fit almost any common consumer tubes.

Of course you can use a jomac chassis if you want but where is the fun in that? Any idiot can do that. Plus it won't work with Trinitron.

And most likely it will lose vertical hold when switching resolutions, bad for multiple consoles or emulation systems.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

lukilla wrote:

MarkOZLAD wrote:

Classicgamer wrote:

I think this is a better way to go potentially:

http://www.jomac.net.au/products/chassis-new/

This guy makes custom universal arcade chassis for transplant into consumer CRT TVs. Apparently, you just tell him the number of pins and give him the numbers from the yoke etc and he does the rest. The way he tells it, he can make an arcade chassis to fit almost any common consumer tubes.

Of course you can use a jomac chassis if you want but where is the fun in that? Any idiot can do that. Plus it won't work with Trinitron.

And most likely it will lose vertical hold when switching resolutions, bad for multiple consoles or emulation systems.

What is that based on? I have owned a number of arcade monitors and the only ones that performed worse than my Sony Trinitron in terms of holding sync was an old worm out Wells Gardner (that had trouble holding sync period).

In general, my arcade monitors have had no trouble syncing to custom resolution / refresh rates that fall within their scan range - I.e. They work perfectly with every 240p arcade game or consumer console.

My Sony Trinitron consumer tv is extremely fussy about accepting odd arcade resolutions - I.e. It will accept some but not others with little decernable reason so you can't always use native res.

Consumer consoles present no problem for any consumer tv or arcade monitor. Unlike arcade games, consumer consoles use pretty much the same output for all games as they all had to work on (a wide range of) consumer NTSC or PAL TVs. If you can use one console, you can use them all.

Also, arcade chassis have conveniently located vertical and horizontal hold pots so, if you do have to make adjustments for an obscure arcade resolution like MK or Rtype, it takes seconds and is easy. If it doesn't work on the Trinitron tv, it's too much hasle to fix for one game.

Classicgamer · Joined: 11 Sep 2014 Posts: 150

MarkOZLAD wrote:

Classicgamer wrote:

I think this is a better way to go potentially:

http://www.jomac.net.au/products/chassis-new/

This guy makes custom universal arcade chassis for transplant into consumer CRT TVs. Apparently, you just tell him the number of pins and give him the numbers from the yoke etc and he does the rest. The way he tells it, he can make an arcade chassis to fit almost any common consumer tubes.

Of course you can use a jomac chassis if you want but where is the fun in that? Any idiot can do that. Plus it won't work with Trinitron.

Using something other than a Trinitron tv is not necessarily a bad thing. I consider the old Trinitron tubes to be a small compromise (vs almost every other brand). They are still very nice but those tubes make the image look a little different than other tv brands and arcade monitors.

I remember feeling the same when I was a kid and bought my first 25" rgb Trinitron tv. It took me a while to get used to after my previous 25" Sharp curved crt TV (also with RGB). I thought I was upgrading but the Trinitron shows more jagged edges (as the image is sharper). Great for video (back then) but not as great for cga graphics....

Also, it seems like this mod would be better on a more simple TV and preferably an older model that still has pots for the service functions. Not being able to make adjustments while the game is on-screen is quite a limitation...

If changing the chassis is easier, that's better. Why put in more work for inferior results?

MarkOZLAD · Joined: 18 May 2017 Posts: 364

This is a thread for RGB Modding TVs. If you're convinced about doing chassis swaps why don't you go somewhere else? We're not interested in that here, it's flat out boring, has no technical achievement attached to it and far more expensive.

lukilla · Joined: 14 Apr 2017 Posts: 54

To Classicgamer:

Personal experience from me and other guy in the crt collective, using different typical chinese chassises, they don´t sync automatically when switching to some different resolutions. What chassises have you tried?.

Also which modes have problems on your trinitron?. I´ve tested these on ntsc sharps, panasonics, jvc, daewoo, and they work fine:

588x239 60 defender
584x240 60 Joust Robotron
576x228 58 lethan enf2 sexy parodius
576x226 60.606 Pacman, Bosconian, Galaga
576x224 60 Simpsons, x-men, aliens, lethal enforcers, methamorphic force, sunset riders
512x256 55 kungfu master, Vigilante
512x243 57.410 robocob, bad dudesvsDN,
512x242 57
512x240 60 Qix namco3d
512x232 60
512x230 58 caveman ninja, crude buster
512x229 59
512x228 57 Traverse, Xaind Sleena
512x227 57.5 Snow Bros
512x226 60.606 Frogger
512x225 61.246 Nibbler
512x224 60 Snes9x
496x224 60
496x208 60
480x240 57 moon patrol, burger time
480x225 61.166 Mr.DO!
480x224 57.444 Double Dragon
448x224 60 Demon front, martial masters
410x256 54.706 Terminator 2
400x256 55
400x254 54.706 (53.205 mame109) mk2, mk3
400x240 60
384x256 55 Irem
384x240 60
384x226 59.583 cps3
384x225 60 cps2 algunos
384x224 59.633 darkstalkers, super sf2,
360x240 60 phoenix, donkey kong
336x240 60
320x240 60
320x225 59.185 algunos snk
320x224 60

320x240 60 Genesis
304x232 60
304x226 54 (crime fighters konami)
304x225 60 Turtles Konami
304x224 59.185 SNK

arithmaldor · Joined: 07 Jun 2017 Posts: 122

MarkOZLAD wrote:

arithmaldor wrote:

That's right everybody, I did it.

Came up great, really like that picture.

Did the jungle just accept the RGB without having to change any settings around Digital OSD etc? I assume it just worked.

I'm thinking that analog RGB inputs can handle digital RGB signals as long as the voltage levels don't go above the maximums for the RGB pins.

The RGB lines from the micro had 1k ohm resistors in series and 200 ohm resistors to ground, then 0.1uf caps in series. I just injected after the 1k and replaced the 200's with 75 and it was good. I have some pics and I'll do a write up once I get everything put back together.

MarkOZLAD · Joined: 18 May 2017 Posts: 364

arithmaldor wrote:

The RGB lines from the micro had 1k ohm resistors in series and 200 ohm resistors to ground, then 0.1uf caps in series. I just injected after the 1k and replaced the 200's with 75 and it was good. I have some pics and I'll do a write up once I get everything put back together.

You’re only 3x100 ohm resistors from a perfect OSD/External RGB mux.

boogiemanspud · Joined: 11 Jul 2018 Posts: 16 Location: Iowa

I recently curb picked an RCA 20F424T which is a nice 20" flatscreen shadowmask with component. It was raining and after a week of dry time with a fan I tried it. Wonderful picture and nice form factor. I found the service manual here: https://www.electronica-pt.com/esquema/ ... 106-17894/ .

Can anyone confirm that this set is not RGB moddable? The jungle chip has the obvious RGB outs but pin 19, 20, 21 appear to be CB, Y, CR in. I believe it's not a simple snip the osd pins and inject if it were possible, but I'd really appreciate if someone could confirm my suspicions. This set looks very nice picture wise so I'm hoping I overlooked something.

Thanks!

Bratwurst · Joined: 31 Jul 2017 Posts: 67

boogiemanspud wrote:

I recently curb picked an RCA 20F424T which is a nice 20" flatscreen shadowmask with component. It was raining and after a week of dry time with a fan I tried it. Wonderful picture and nice form factor. I found the service manual here: https://www.electronica-pt.com/esquema/ ... 106-17894/ .

Can anyone confirm that this set is not RGB moddable? The jungle chip has the obvious RGB outs but pin 19, 20, 21 appear to be CB, Y, CR in. I believe it's not a simple snip the osd pins and inject if it were possible, but I'd really appreciate if someone could confirm my suspicions. This set looks very nice picture wise so I'm hoping I overlooked something.

Thanks!

I tried looking up TA8892 and only found datasheets for semi-related jungle chips by Toshiba like TA8891, etc. Doesn't look like it has RGB inputs though. You could inject the signals straight to the guns, interrupting the RGB out lines just after the resistors?

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