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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:58 pm 


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Location: England
mickcris wrote:
Tarma wrote:
I've recently installed the RGB amp that mickris supplied me to my PCE Duo and I've got zero jail bars from the mod.

I have had all the caps replaced though, so whether that's made the difference I don't know. Overall, I see no need to add any additional modifications for the picture to improve to be honest!


it seems to be somewhat console dependent and also what scaler or monitor you are using. i have trouble seeing them on my BVM and xrgb-mini.


Native Japanese Duo (at 100v) with RGB amp running through xrgb-mini into Panasonic 32" LCD:

Image

Image

Photos taken with my iphone.
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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:06 pm 


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Is that an example of something that typically shows the jailbars? I only ask because it isn't present in every game.

I know that Keith Courage, Super Raiden, Rtype, and Kaze Kiri are among some of the games that tend to show it. Generally it stands out in a solid color, but I have seen it in fairly complex backgrounds as well.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:22 pm 


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That's a good question, to which I don't know the answer. It's the only PC Engine game I've got whereby I know it'd show jail bars up in the picture clearly if they were there.... maybe horror story as well?

I don't have any of the games you mention... not on PCE anyways.

I'd have thought they would be fairly evident to the eye on any game if one were suffering with jail bars if it's a hardware related issue? I can confidently say that none of my PCE games exhibt jail bars on the current set up.
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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:49 pm 


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If you have an everdrive/CD system use the excellent 240p test suite for solid colour screens;
http://sourceforge.net/projects/testsui ... -TG16-SCD/
If not dragon spirit first level isn't a bad test.
I've got 3x white pc engines here, none show jail bars as stock for me.
I had a couple of duos fairly recently which did show them but placing 2 caps near the main IC as per the 1st post resolved that for them.
Nice to see a proper explanation of what is going courtesy of Tim, anymore that I get hold of will get that treatment - thanks =]


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:00 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Parts came in from Digikey and I gave it a shot. OMG for the first time, my Turbografx-16 is CLEAN. Can't see any jailbars at all!!

Here's the part I ordered:

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/e ... 45-2873-ND

I desoldered/removed the through hole caps and used these in its place. For other systems, here's the SMD equivalent:

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/e ... -2873-1-ND


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:20 am 


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leonk wrote:
Parts came in from Digikey and I gave it a shot. OMG for the first time, my Turbografx-16 is CLEAN. Can't see any jailbars at all!!

Awesome. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:36 pm 


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This is the location on the Duo-R. They are on the underside of the board opposite of the HuC6260. They have the same number designations as the regular Duo

Image


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:46 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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Well, living in my part of the world sure does suck. Getting high quality caps from a reputable place will cost me a fortune it seems, mostly due to absurd shipping prices. Well, my kind of fortune, bearing in mind that I am chronically poor and by any measuring standard live under the poverty line, albeit quite comfortably.

Cheapest option is, as always, noname shit tier caps from Cinese seller who somehow are willing to send me 50-100 units to my door for less than just the shipping cost of 10 caps from anywhere in Europe.

No need to ask about the quality of these Chinese caps, but will they be good enough for this kind of decoupling job? Or am I forced to go with Murata other high shelf brands?


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:36 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Location: Toronto, Canada
What system are you modding? Maybe Santa Leon can send you a few Samsung caps for free from Canada. :D

PM me.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:44 pm 



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Shitty Chinese caps will work. The question isn't so much WILL they work but more for how LONG they will work. They could work for years or they could burst after three days. Its why I personally only buy higher end capacitors.
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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:50 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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Well, since those caps are so cheap and each shipment comes with 50-100 units I can just replace all the 100nF caps in my PC Engines, instead of just two, and have at least triple redundancy. That should compensate for the reliability problems.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:56 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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leonk wrote:
What system are you modding? Maybe Santa Leon can send you a few Samsung caps for free from Canada. :D

PM me.


I have a bunch of systems. I think I have at least 4, maybe 5 PC Engine/Turbografx's here, all acquired in better times. It is one of my favourite systems after all.

Thanks for the offer, but I'll give those Chinese caps a try first. It will be worth knowing whether they can be trusted for posterity. Though if they are not up to snuff I'll be happy to buy a few of your spare caps from you, no need for a handout, even if I am comfortably poor.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:18 am 


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Performed the cap upgrade today on the Duo-R. I didn't want to believe it. Looks great. I even turned off the lights and smashed my head up against the screen - nothing. All I saw was the usual noise from the framemeister.

On a side note, I finally region modded my Duo-R this weekend as well. Now I feel armed and dangerous! :mrgreen:

leonk - Do you feel like updating the first post in this thread with Tim's information? It seems to be the new, de facto standard now.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:10 pm 


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Tried Tim's fix out on my TG16 and it works as expected! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:39 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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RGB32E wrote:
Tried Tim's fix out on my TG16 and it works as expected! :mrgreen:


From my understanding, the NEC console jailbars has been a plague on RGB modders for over a decade. Many have tried, but I can't believe that Tim solved it in just a couple of months (since I first contacted him when I got a copy of his AV driver and noticed the jailbars on my TG16).


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:46 am 


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leonk wrote:
but I can't believe that Tim solved it in just a couple of months


In addition to the fact that Tim is talented, I appreciate his genuine electronics approach to solving problems and creating circuits. In my opinion, the gaming community often thrives on trial and error with "well, it looks good to me… So that means the circuit must be acceptable."

If only we took a bit more of a Tim approach rather than simply guessing and eyeballing everything all the time.

That isn't a dig at anyone in particular, it is just a fact about the videogame modding community.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:42 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Location: Toronto, Canada
CkRtech wrote:
That isn't a dig at anyone in particular, it is just a fact about the videogame modding community.


I think this is generally true of the people in general. :(

I love watching Dave Jones' EEVBLOG YouTube videos; especially when he reviews electronic devices and how poor they're put together.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:58 am 


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Dave is hilarious :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:49 am 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 322
leonk wrote:
RGB32E wrote:
Tried Tim's fix out on my TG16 and it works as expected! :mrgreen:


From my understanding, the NEC console jailbars has been a plague on RGB modders for over a decade. Many have tried, but I can't believe that Tim solved it in just a couple of months (since I first contacted him when I got a copy of his AV driver and noticed the jailbars on my TG16).

At the risk of offending those many who tried, did any of them know what they were doing or just kind of flounder around trying things like I get the impression most do from reading various forums.
CkRtech wrote:
leonk wrote:
but I can't believe that Tim solved it in just a couple of months


In addition to the fact that Tim is talented, I appreciate his genuine electronics approach to solving problems and creating circuits. In my opinion, the gaming community often thrives on trial and error with "well, it looks good to me… So that means the circuit must be acceptable."

If only we took a bit more of a Tim approach rather than simply guessing and eyeballing everything all the time.

That isn't a dig at anyone in particular, it is just a fact about the videogame modding community.


Yeah, that, exactly. Worse is what I see on occasion when a proper solution like this is come up with, and it's still rejected by some who say "I've used method XYZ on 100 consoles and never had a problem with it so I'll keep doing that..."


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:13 pm 


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cfx wrote:
Yeah, that, exactly. Worse is what I see on occasion when a proper solution like this is come up with, and it's still rejected by some who say "I've used method XYZ on 100 consoles and never had a problem with it so I'll keep doing that..."


I've been an advocate of using the AV-Driver over the past year, yet there are still examples like this. Granted, Tim hasn't listed the AVD on his eShop, but one can still request it. I'm glad he's making progress on the documentation he wanted to supply with the AVD, and solving some long standing issues in the process! While Tim would have to speak for himself, I'm pretty sure he's known about the Hu6260 noise issue for years (>3). He has been pursuing retro gaming tech for over a decade and has developed quite the talent for it! :mrgreen:

I can't help but wonder if a similar method will resolve the SNES band. Perhaps he'll come up with a resolution for the SNES AVD document as he has the skills, knowledge and equipment to do so!

Oh the irony:
viletim wrote:
Impossible!

but you might fool people with a small PC inside crammed inside an Atari shell. That can output RGB.

btw, I'm not sure why you want to do this. If done properly a 2600 modified to output composite video looks pretty good. I don't think it would benifit much from RGB considering the primitive graphics. The 7800 on the other hand...video noise hell, at least on every model I've pried open.


And yet he created the impossible many years later! http://etim.net.au/2600rgb/

:lol: :P


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:13 pm 


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viletim 2005 wrote:
Impossible!

viletim 2015 wrote:
http://etim.net.au/2600rgb/

Image


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:56 pm 


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RGB32E wrote:
I've been an advocate of using the AV-Driver over the past year, yet there are still examples like this. Granted, Tim hasn't listed the AVD on his eShop, but one can still request it.


This is a bit off topic in this thread, but I will respond since I feel like i've been called out.

I did not design the circuit I am selling, but it does work wonderfully (I would not call it an improper solution but it is a bit fudged from the original circuit in the data sheet to make it look a little better). and yes I am going to say it, it has been installed on probably thousands of consoles with no issues. But if people want to buy Tim's board that is fine with me. I have yet to see what the price is going to be also. I have only seen one other person besides you report that they have used it (leonk) and he has said that there is no difference in video quality comparing the one that I sell to Tim's board. I love that Tim put the audio amplifier on his board as that will be great for some systems. If he puts my amp shop out of business I really won't care. I am only selling the boards as it is currently the best option available, it's relatively cheap, and Broken decided to stop selling them. I might not sell anymore after what I currently have parts for.

I think situation with the PC Engine RGB is a bit different than something like the NESrgb where there was a definite difference between the old RGB mod and Tim's.

I appreciate what Tim does, but to say that everyone else should just stop trying is silly. thesteve is an electrical engineer that came up with previous capacitor "fix" for the jailbars. It did not work on all consoles though. I think he actually had a thought process as to why he was doing it and was just not slapping capacitors everywhere till something worked.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:39 pm 


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This banding issue is a clearly an elusive issue.

I recently did an RGB mod to my IFU-30A using otaku's NEC RGB amplifier.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51869&hilit=jail&start=112

On my mod the amplifier is inside the IFU-30A, power is fed to the PCE via the expansion port and power for the amp is taken from the 7805 inside the IFU-30A. The sync is taken from C22 (SYNCV) i.e. composite sync. I have tested with 3 different units and there are no jailbars.

Does this mean that there is a difference between powering from the side connector vs from the extension port ?
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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:39 pm 


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mickcris wrote:
I did not design the circuit I am selling, but it does work wonderfully (I would not call it an improper solution but it is a bit fudged from the original circuit in the data sheet to make it look a little better). and yes I am going to say it, it has been installed on probably thousands of consoles with no issues.


cfx called it! Sorry about that! :wink: I seem to recall that the specific design of that THS7314 circuit was based off of Tim's own suggestions on how to apply it to the NEC systems (AC Biased input & voltage divider output)!

mickcris wrote:
I have only seen one other person besides you report that they have used it (leonk)


CkRtech has installed at least one in a Duo. IIRC, there was someone else as well that posted within the last month looking to get one installed. I'd imagine there are more, but certainly not as many when you compare it to something that is posted on many different forums!

mickcris wrote:
he has said that there is no difference in video quality comparing the one that I sell to Tim's board.


That's one persons account. :o I found improved results. YMMV.

mickcris wrote:
I am only selling the boards as it is currently the best option available and Broken decided to stop selling them.


As mentioned before, the AVD has been available for a while now, just not listed on his shop.

mickcris wrote:
I think situation with the PC Engine RGB is a bit different than something like the NESrgb where there was a definite difference between the old RGB mod and Tim's.


Apples and oranges? I can only speak to the performance of the two amp designs. The 2x gain from the THS7314 results in an overblown output. Adding 100 ohm resistors instead of 75 is a Band-Aid of sorts. :? I've tried Tim's suggestion of using a voltage divider with the THS instead of just a higher value series resistor, but found that the AVD gives a better picture. I've tried the discreet transistor, NJM, THS, and AVD with the NEC systems and find that the AVD works the best.

mickcris wrote:
I appreciate what Tim does, but to say that everyone else should just stop trying is silly.


Are you referring to this comment?

CkRtech wrote:
In my opinion, the gaming community often thrives on trial and error with "well, it looks good to me… So that means the circuit must be acceptable."


IMHO improving the audio and video quality of retro gaming is an ongoing and evolving process. What was considered best 5 years ago may no longer be the case today! On the same token, is it not ok to evaluate and share the current state of what is available/possible? The THS was a great fit for mods that only needed a 2x gain (N64 RGB), and bypassing various RGB encoders, and still is for some applications. However, it was never quite right for the NEC systems (RGB levels too high, no CSYNC buffering, no audio buffering for TG16/PCE).

mickcris wrote:
thesteve is an electrical engineer that came up with previous capacitor "fix" for the jailbars. It did not work on all consoles though. I think he actually had a thought process as to why he was doing it and was just not slapping capacitors everywhere till something worked.


Yes, he was on to something, but turns out he wasn't able to pin point the exact issue? Nobody's perfect!


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:48 pm 


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RGB32E wrote:
Are you referring to this comment?


I was mainly referring to this comment:
cfx wrote:
At the risk of offending those many who tried, did any of them know what they were doing or just kind of flounder around trying things like I get the impression most do from reading various forums.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:26 pm 


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RGB32E wrote:
CkRtech has installed at least one in a Duo.

Confirmed. I am currently using Tim's AV Driver in my Duo-R.

One advantage the AV Driver offers me is a circuit to prep csync for output. The VGA switch I use needs csync (TTL level) in order to activate the input.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:16 am 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
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mickcris wrote:
RGB32E wrote:
Are you referring to this comment?

I was mainly referring to this comment:
cfx wrote:
At the risk of offending those many who tried, did any of them know what they were doing or just kind of flounder around trying things like I get the impression most do from reading various forums.

My comment is perhaps too inflammatory, but I called out no one in particular, and I asked a question, just based on what I've seen in general over the years reading various hardware forums. Honestly, I haven't kept up with other forums in a number of years because of the nature of most of what I found posted.

No one coming up with mods is required to justify their solutions, but it certainly leads credence to the results when they show how they came up with them by showing measurements, methodology, etc. as Tim and seemingly very few others do. Posting what amounts to "I came up with this and it worked on what I tried it on" tells me nothing beyond what it says, literally, and while perhaps that's good enough for some people, I'd like to know that a mod has some kind of valid science behind it, and if it does, why not share that information?

Maybe "results looks good to my eye so it works" is good enough for many people, but I'd rather know that the RGB output of a console is electrically correct and within specs such that it not only seems to work, but isn't subtly slowly damaging the input circuitry on the PVM or whatever other increasingly irreplacable CRT I might be using it with, or slowly destroying the output or VDP in the console because it's being presented a load it wasn't designed for. Perhaps that's my own OCD or anal-ness at work but there it is, and I'll pick a tested and measured solution like the AV-Driver over one that works only to the extent it's been "installed on 1000 systems without issues" any day.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:03 pm 


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Edit: got a response via PM, thank you.


Last edited by Kyle on Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:50 pm 


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cfx wrote:
mickcris wrote:
RGB32E wrote:
Are you referring to this comment?

I was mainly referring to this comment:
cfx wrote:
At the risk of offending those many who tried, did any of them know what they were doing or just kind of flounder around trying things like I get the impression most do from reading various forums.

My comment is perhaps too inflammatory, but I called out no one in particular, and I asked a question, just based on what I've seen in general over the years reading various hardware forums. Honestly, I haven't kept up with other forums in a number of years because of the nature of most of what I found posted.

No one coming up with mods is required to justify their solutions, but it certainly leads credence to the results when they show how they came up with them by showing measurements, methodology, etc. as Tim and seemingly very few others do. Posting what amounts to "I came up with this and it worked on what I tried it on" tells me nothing beyond what it says, literally, and while perhaps that's good enough for some people, I'd like to know that a mod has some kind of valid science behind it, and if it does, why not share that information?

Maybe "results looks good to my eye so it works" is good enough for many people, but I'd rather know that the RGB output of a console is electrically correct and within specs such that it not only seems to work, but isn't subtly slowly damaging the input circuitry on the PVM or whatever other increasingly irreplacable CRT I might be using it with, or slowly destroying the output or VDP in the console because it's being presented a load it wasn't designed for. Perhaps that's my own OCD or anal-ness at work but there it is, and I'll pick a tested and measured solution like the AV-Driver over one that works only to the extent it's been "installed on 1000 systems without issues" any day.


Sorry, my whole reply was not worded very well. I also kind of misread what you wrote a bit (I have bad reading comprehension sometimes). Rgb32e's post just kind of got under my skin as he was implying that I am bad for selling junk. I disagree with him that the amp I use is now obsolete now that Tim has made the AV driver. Maybe when more than one person is saying the picture quaility is far better, I will change my mind. Also for the record, it will not slowly kill a console or tv. I do agree that in some cases the AV driver is a better option.

This is my last amp post in this thread though as it has nothing to do with the topic of jail bars.


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 Post subject: Re: PCE Turbo Duo RGB - No jailbars - working solution
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:32 pm 



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I've used the THS amp in several PC Engines, spanning a range of models and to my eyes there is nothing discernably wrong with the picture. Things look sharp and vibrant. I am mainly curious about the AV driver to see whether I can spot any visual difference at all in a side by side test, but as things are I see nothing visually sticking out as inferior on a THS amp modded PC Engine.

The way I understand it the main difference between the two is brightness level of the final picture. I am just shooting in the dark here, but unless there is some sort of clipping taking place in the THS amp, compared to the AV Driver, any brightness differences should be adjustable via the brightness control of your display.

I always tweak colour, contrast and brightness between systems anyway.


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