2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

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viletim
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by viletim »

darcagn wrote: I'm thinking for this mod I might do a 8-pin (full size) DIN connector with the same pinout as the Sega Genesis model 1, so that any off-the-shelf Genesis model 1 cables will work with it. Additionally, instead of mounting the connector to the back, I might just have a short female 8-pin DIN connector on a cable routed through the hole on the back of the console where the RF-out cable used to be, so it retains the same style as the original console configuration.

Thoughts?
The old Sega video connections are a poor choice from a technical point of view. Read below for more info than you probably wanted.

Historical:

The first console to feature the Sega RGB port is the Master System. Most of the consoles connect the signals from the video encoder straight to the video port. The exception is the French consoles. They have no video encoder at all, the RGB signal from the graphics chip connects straight to the video port.

The Sega RGB cable (called the Adapteur R.V.B.) was included with all the French Master System consoles. There is no RF modulator or video encoder so RGB in all that is available. The cable contains a four channel video driver (for the RGB + sync lines) and a DC-DC converter to generate the SCART switching voltages.

The same arrangement was passed on to the Mega Drive. There was no special version for France without the video encoder. Now all models have one and the RGB signals connected straight from it to the AV port. The same cable is used as before. I presume this is all done in the the name of compatibility.

Now the Mega Drive II came out. I think this is a genuine mistake that the engineers forgot to put the resistor + capacitor on the board this time when they changed the connector. They also took the opportunity to make a dog's breakfast of the audio circuit. The new cable for the Mega Drive II in France (RGB still required as many didn't have PAL compatible TVs yet) was a horrible compromise where they put the forgotten components into the SCART end of the cable along with a DC-DC converter for the SCART switching. The DC-DC converter was noisy and most cables around are already modified to cut power to it. The capacitors were left out, presumably because they didn't fit.

Now for the technical bit:

The video encoder in the Master System and Mega Drive can drive the video line directly with the addition of a 75 ohm series resistor and coupling capacitor (usually 220u but the value is not critical). The resistor serves two purposes. First is to match the source impedance with the load so there are minimal reflections along the transmission line (cable), second it isolates the low impedance output of the video driver from the cable capacitance. The capacitance of a long cables can be enough to make the video encoder oscillate. This is a characteristic of all high speed voltage feedback amplifiers. Capacitive loads are not allowed. You can find warnings in the better video encoder datasheets about this.

To make a passive RGB cable for these consoles you need to put the resistors into the console end not the SCART end. Even if you don't care for good quality video, the video signal couples into the audio signal worse if the resistor is placed at the SCART end. The capacitor can at either end and it's only blocking DC. If you leave it out (like Sega did), it forces the video driver (in the video encoder chip) into class A mode (instead of class AB) and it makes the video encoder get very hot.


The reason I didn't choose this for my products should be obvious. It's got lots of history, technical flaws, and it's very expensive to make cables with components inside. Of course, I have to be able to supply cables which are up to a certain standard, not just ask to buy cables from somebody else which may or may not be junk.

The reason I didn't use the Neo Geo pinout is DIN connectors are a bit too big for my liking. The larger the hole the customer has to drill, the more likely it will end in a cracked shell. Also, (statistically) nobody has a Neo Geo.

I recommend separate cables for audio and video because it's the most cost effective way to get guaranteed good audio performance. The two cables can easily be bound together with heat shrink or cable ties. Pretty much every analog video connection that isn't SCART has separate connections for audio so it's hardly without precedent.

I'll finish by mentioning that these are only recommendations and you are quite welcome to use whatever connection you like.
viletim
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by viletim »

antron wrote:Commodore 64 at all possible? Or 128? Being an actual computer, it's just begging for RGB.
I looked at the Commodore 64, but I think it's impossible to RGB mod. There's only a single video output pin on the graphics chip - no further video information source at all.
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Unseen
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by Unseen »

viletim wrote:I looked at the Commodore 64, but I think it's impossible to RGB mod. There's only a single video output pin on the graphics chip - no further video information source at all.
The VIC-II of the C64 outputs seperate luma and chroma. Another helpful factor is that there are only nine discrete luma levels (ignoring very early VIC-II revisions which had only five) and for each of them there are only one (black/white) or two possible colors. To distinguish between the two colors, you would need to consider both the phase and amplitude of the color signals as there are a few grays among them.

Here are some measurements of the colors generated by the VIC-II.

Alternatively, if you know someone who can decap a chip without destroying it and re-package it with four additional pads bonded out, there are four test pads on the die that are said to output the color number of the current pixel. ;)
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Monstermug
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by Monstermug »

Is there a way to RGB mod a sunnyvale heavy sixer without having to drill any holes? Perhaps have the av cord coming out the same hole as the original rf cable?
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darcagn
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by darcagn »

viletim wrote:The old Sega video connections are a poor choice from a technical point of view. Read below for more info than you probably wanted.

[...]
Thanks for taking your time to provide a detailed explanation. I did read all of it :) I have learned a lot from this hobby and that's half of the fun to me (the other half, of course, playing games!). It definitely sounds like you should stay away from the Sega configuration for your products, and we for our installations.

viletim wrote:I'll finish by mentioning that these are only recommendations and you are quite welcome to use whatever connection you like.
Too late, I already committed to doing it the default kit way:

Image

I had leftover parts from an NESRGB installation for which I used a 3D-printed multiout, so I got started on my 2600RGB installation early. :P The orange S/PDIF-style phono jacks aren't staying, though, I just used them as placeholders for the drilling process until the right colors are shipped to me. The palette switch will be mounted on the right. I didn't have a step bit, and they seem to be quite expensive, so I used a very small dremel bit to create a hole and filed them out by hand.
Monstermug wrote:Is there a way to RGB mod a sunnyvale heavy sixer without having to drill any holes? Perhaps have the av cord coming out the same hole as the original rf cable?
The kit for the NTSC six switchers aren't available yet but that should be easy to do once they're available.
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ApolloBoy
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by ApolloBoy »

darcagn wrote:I didn't have a step bit, and they seem to be quite expensive
I picked up a set of three at Harbor Freight for only $14, I don't know how I got by without them now.
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BuckoA51
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by BuckoA51 »

viletim wrote: The that filter in the screen shot doesn't look like Atari RF video. It's more like RGB with Vaseline smeared over the screen. Characteristics of the Atari's RF are low colour saturation, colour distortion on leading and trailing edges, and noise in the audio. At least it's true for the PAL consoles I've used. Maybe the NTSC version looks different?
It's been too long since I even used a 2600 but it certainly looks closer to the desired effect though, I mean they clearly put those rows of striped pixels in the background to look like a sunset, not just some strip of pixels.

Please don't get me wrong though I don't want to detract from your amazing work and having options of how to hook things up is never a bad thing. It's also accurate to say that lots of NES graphics were designed around the inherent limitations of composite, but I'd much rather use an RGB NES personally.

Perhaps someone with a 2600RGB and a Framemeister can experiment with the scaler settings to blur pixels so we get the smudged effect without all the other RF noise?
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the Wiki before posting about Morph, OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page
collinp
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by collinp »

BuckoA51 wrote: It's been too long since I even used a 2600 but it certainly looks closer to the desired effect though, I mean they clearly put those rows of striped pixels in the background to look like a sunset, not just some strip of pixels.

Please don't get me wrong though I don't want to detract from your amazing work and having options of how to hook things up is never a bad thing. It's also accurate to say that lots of NES graphics were designed around the inherent limitations of composite, but I'd much rather use an RGB NES personally.
I don't see the 2600 as that different from the NES. Sure there are a few things that will look more pixelated, but for the most part I think Atari developers looked at their game art as a low-res grid of pixels. We know a lot of developers designed their sprites on graph paper with colored pencils. Just like the NES, factoring in the distortion due to the interconnect may have occurred in some cases but I don't think it was the norm.

The other factor to consider is how hard it is to use RF to connect to anything modern. Old-school analog TV tuners are gone. Even when you find some way to connect things RF picks up a ton of noise which then gets digitally processed and looks far worse the it did in the 70s. This mod is going to let us directly connect a 2600 to a Framemeister (or similar) with a sharp and vibrant singal and I think that is very cool.
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Einzelherz
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by Einzelherz »

darcagn wrote:
The thought had crossed my mind for a short moment but it's impossible to find female 10-pin mini-DIN connectors. I haven't tried looking for any myself but I've known people who've tried to no avail. I do have some dead Saturns that I could harvest one from, though, but I think I'd feel awful doing that when there are other alternatives and nothing particularly special about that connector.
edit: I'm a dummy. Ignore this.

The mini-din 10s that I bought for my NESRGB came from ebay via china. They were pretty cheap too, around $1 per.
Last edited by Einzelherz on Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CkRtech
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by CkRtech »

Einzelherz wrote:The mini-din 10s that I bought for my NESRGB came from ebay via china. They were pretty cheap too, around $1 per.
Were they the same MDIN10 pin layout as the Saturn?
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by Einzelherz »

CkRtech wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:The mini-din 10s that I bought for my NESRGB came from ebay via china. They were pretty cheap too, around $1 per.
Were they the same MDIN10 pin layout as the Saturn?
edit: I'm a dummy. Ignore this.

If you mean are they the standard mini-din 10 plug shape, yes. I don't see them on ebay currently but they looked like this:

Image

I then ordered a saturn 10 pin male plug from retro console accessories and rewired a Naki dreamcast scart cable and it works quite well.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p1044292 Couldn't figure out how to just link to the post by itself.
Last edited by Einzelherz on Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RGB32E
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OFF TOPIC 10 PIN MINI DIN TALK

Post by RGB32E »

^^
Image

Image
Points where a "Sega" plug wouldn't fit a "generic" jack without modification.

Image
As seen on the back side of a Sega Saturn

Image
Sega style 10MDIN plug
Last edited by RGB32E on Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Einzelherz
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by Einzelherz »

Ok, everyone forget what I said. My memory was mistaken.

I used a mini-din 9. This let me wire up R,G,B,s,Y,C,R,L which only meant no composite. But on the NES I could have wired the composite to the side port anyway.
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darcagn
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by darcagn »

Looks like things are going to be delayed a little bit more :(
Hello,

I have recently discovered a software bug on the 2600RGB board software
which prevents it from starting up properly under certain circumstances.
You are receiving this email because the 2600RGB kit that is on the way
to you is affected by the bug. I will be sending replacement boards with
updated software to all affected customers on Friday. Please wait for
the replacement board to arrive before attempting installation. Sorry
for the inconvenience.

Regards
Tim Worthington
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darcagn
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by darcagn »

I received my kit today and installed it; unfortunately it suffers from the software bug on my 2600, however Tim gave us some hints to get it going in the AtariAge thread.

Installation pics:
Spoiler
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Video footage: Pitfall (XRGB-mini 720p via RGB)
 
Video footage: Harmony Encore main menu, Pole Position (XRGB-mini 720p via RGB)
 
Images, all through XRGB-mini at 720p:

Space Invaders
Spoiler
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Pitfall (palettes 1/2/3)
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Pitfall (palette 2) via Composite, S-Video, and RGB
Spoiler
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Comparison image:
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(I'm unsure as to why the RGB picture is so much dimmer...)

Dig Dug (palettes 1/2/3)
Spoiler
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Custer's Revenge (palettes 1/2/3)
Spoiler
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Frogger (palettes 1/2/3)
Spoiler
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philexile
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by philexile »

That looks great – I can't wait to get the kit! I'm currently using s-video and this looks like it solves all those issues.

Tim, would you ever consider an RGB mod for the 5200?

Thanks
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by glazball »

I second that! The 5200 is in sore need of some RGB love also. Keep up the great work!
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by CkRtech »

darcagn -

I don't suppose you do requests for video? :mrgreen:

I'm curious about what Yar's Revenge looks like.
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by darcagn »

Sure, I'm working in my office right now so I can't take the laptop to the living room but when I'm done with my shift I'll get some caps of Yars Revenge for ya.
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by CkRtech »

Sweet!
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darcagn
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by darcagn »

Some people on AtariAge were interested in seeing the 2600RGB on an SD display, so here are some photos of Pitfall on the 14" BVM.

Pitfall on Sony BVM
Spoiler
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Pitfall in RGB vs. Pitfall in Composite on Sony BVM
Spoiler
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Close up detail comparison
Spoiler
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Also, here's Yars' Revenge for CkRtech. ;)
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by CkRtech »

Thanks! :mrgreen:

I was really wondering what the Neutral Zone would look like as well as the strobe-like explosion ("Strobesplosion?"). The capture looks great. Do you feel like the game still has that same visual "feel" to it with the RGB mod? It looks quite clean.
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by mvsfan »

Are the adapter boards for the 2600 Jr going to be ready soon?
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by viletim »

mvsfan wrote:Are the adapter boards for the 2600 Jr going to be ready soon?
It might be a few months away yet. I think the only way it's going to fit is if I make them from flex PCB (Kapton).
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by Monstermug »

Any eta on a heavy sixer RGB modding instructions?
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by viletim »

Monstermug wrote:Any eta on a heavy sixer RGB modding instructions?
They are here.
http://etim.net.au/2600rgb/installation-6switch/
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by rayik »

EDIT ***************

False alarm. I did not have a cart inserted. False safe worked.

That's what I get for finishing up around midnight.

END EDIT *****************



Did I just kill my 2600rgb?

I installed 2600rgb. Audio and rgb connectors. With audio jack I wired both sound channels seperately as per wiring diagram Connected system up and turned it on before screwing case together. Worked fine.

Screwed case together. Wanted to play a game. Accidently plugged power cord into audio jack and (audio cord into power jack). Realized this after turn system on and nothing happened.

Switched around cords so thy were correct plugged in. Now 2600rgb does not work. Turn power on and one of two things happen: black screen and constant beep sound; or black screen and constant static sound.

Did I fry the 2600rgb or can this be fixed?

Thanks for any help.
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by mvsfan »

Im planning on getting one of these soon.

My s-video 2600jr started glitching lately anyway. The space invaders all go off screen at random times. i havent bothered to see why yet.

I never really was satisfied with all those wires anyway. Tims kit will make it look a whole lot better inside as well as improve the video some more.

I cant wait to see what Tim does next.
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by dingsbums »

I would love to see him doing a RGB kit for the PC-FX (one of the few consoles you still can't mod for RGB :( ).
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lechu
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Re: 2600RGB - Video upgrade kit for the Atari 2600

Post by lechu »

I just tried installing an RGB board, but I'm having trouble.

I tested out the video and got nothing. There's 5 volts going to the board. The grounds are connected. The LED on the board goes red for less then a second, then nothing. I'm using composite video for sync. I have no idea what to do.

Any ideas?
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