Can anyone recommend a joystick for Saturn shmupping?

[DC906270]

Hi, am thinking about acquiring a joystick for my Sega Saturn - will it improve my shmupping and offer improved control? or do you think i am best off sticking with the pads? after all , a joystick needs somewhere solid to stand on/large desk space? can anyone recommend the kind of stick i should look for? is the official sega virtua stick any good? ever heard of the city boy 2? would like ps2/saturn compatibility if possible!
so many questions!

[Ghegs]

Thread moved to Hardware.

Also:

Hi, am thinking about acquiring a joystick for my Sega Saturn - will it improve my shmupping and offer improved control? or do you think i am best off sticking with the pads?

You won't suddenly develop "teh skillz" just by getting a joystick - in fact, if you've been playing on pads so far you'll most likely notice a drop in your skills when playing with a joystick because you're not familiar with them. It takes some time to learn how to properly manipulate the stick. If you keep at it your skills will soon return to their former glory and possibly even extend further. But in the end it's yourself that improves regardless of the control method.

[DC906270]

was just wondering whether it is easier to control slight movements with a stick rather than pad? do ALL the best players use joysticks or is it a mix?

[Ghegs]

was just wondering whether it is easier to control slight movements with a stick rather than pad? do ALL the best players use joysticks or is it a mix?

Check out this thread for more, but basically, slight movements (tap-dodging) are easier with a pad, but can be learned with a stick just as well. However, flowing movements (like, say, doing the figure 8 on screen) are easier with a stick, but likewise can be learned with a pad.

If we're thinking about japanese players they probably all use joysticks since they play in arcades. But the best players here in the forums are mixed, I think.

[theevilfunkster]

I Dont know what good sticks there are but stay away from the official UK Saturn stick. It's pretty much useless.

[mannerbot]

There's a Saturn stick that's basically just Seimitsu parts with an Astro City control panel, but it's rather hard to find and pretty expensive. Otherwise, excluding custom sticks, the best would probably be the Japanese Virtua Stick.

While playing with a stick won't automatically improve your scores, imo it is a lot more fun playing on a stick.

[superhitachi4]

Hi, am thinking about acquiring a joystick for my Sega Saturn - will it improve my shmupping and offer improved control? can anyone recommend the kind of stick i should look for? is the official sega virtua stick any good?

If you're used to a pad, you'll probably notice a decline in skill when you first use a stick. This usually goes away though. If you practice with a stick, you'll probably improve all around. As someone else mentioned before, the Japanese Virtua Stick's a good solution. (the white one with the green buttons) I'd stay clear of the western versions of the "Virtua Stick" though. They completely suck from my point of view, but that's me. Personally I use one of these: http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4893/ast ... urn5nq.jpg but they're not cheap, and extremely hard to come by. There *is* a Saturn stick by Hori called the "FightingStick SS", which can be seen here: http://yosshy.hmc6.net/my_documents/shu ... tickss.jpg This is almost identical to the Neo Geo AES stick. I have one of these, and it's a pretty good solution if you can't get a Japanese Virtua Stick. You'd think a kick ass system like the Saturn with 320698730636 fighters, and shooters would have a HUGE stick selection. Ah well. Luckily the Saturn has the best pads around.

[iatneH]

I bought a fighting stick for the Saturn off a buddy for $5. It's an official Sega product, but none of the parts are microswitched, they're all using larger version of the rubber squishies found in pads. It's a nice size though and for $5 I think it's a pretty good deal.

[Recap]

There's a Saturn stick that's basically just Seimitsu parts with an Astro City control panel,

That's a myth. I have it (it's actual name is Virtua Stick Pro) and it doesn't have Seimitsu or professional parts at all. They're not too different to the standard (and crappy) Virtua Stick (2nd model) parts or the DC official arcade stick, actually, although, for some reason, they work much, much better here, making of it the best official solution for a home system ever made, aside from Special Edition/Special Adition sticks. A very expensive controller, these days, thoe.

While playing with a stick won't automatically improve your scores, imo it is a lot more fun playing on a stick.

And also, it's a matter of standardization. Nobody plays PCB's with pads at arcade centers.

[oxtsu]

There's a Saturn stick that's basically just Seimitsu parts with an Astro City control panel,

That's a myth. I have it (it's actual name is Virtua Stick Pro) and it doesn't have Seimitsu or professional parts at all. They're not too different to the standard (and crappy) Virtua Stick (2nd model) parts or the DC official arcade stick, actually, although, for some reason, they work much, much better here, making of it the best official solution for a home system ever made, aside from Special Edition/Special Adition sticks. A very expensive controller, these days, thoe.

You are mistaken here. Virtua Stick Pro is using Seimitsu LS-32.

Calling the standard VS crappy is a bit of a stretch. It is using a prototype LS-33 which is still quite good, despite its' weaker feeling and durability compared to LS-32. Sega DC stick is much the same story, but based off of Sanwa JLF. If you could try the VS and DC sticks when they are brand new then it reveals a more accurate picture. With the durability problem though, it is only a small matter of time before turning to mush and needing to swap to the genuine high grade spec.

[Michaelm]

I've got a Hori Fighting Stick for the Sega Saturn and it beats the official Sega Saturn Virtua Stick easily.

[Recap]

You are mistaken here. Virtua Stick Pro is using Seimitsu LS-32.

How are you this sure? You can't see the parts without breaking the base on this stick. If you know another way, please let me know, since I want to change them. Anyhow, the parts' response is far from a professional result. Hardly they're Seimitsu (and I just bought some Seimitsu buttons for my custom stick, so I should know), but just my opinion.

Calling the standard VS crappy is a bit of a stretch. It is using a prototype LS-33 which is still quite good, despite its' weaker feeling and durability compared to LS-32. Sega DC stick is much the same story, but based off of Sanwa JLF. If you could try the VS and DC sticks when they are brand new then it reveals a more accurate picture. With the durability problem though, it is only a small matter of time before turning to mush and needing to swap to the genuine high grade spec.

Indeed, I own the three Virtua Stick models for the SS and bought them brand new (actually I sold the second model due to its poor quality). Same with the DC Arcade Stick. It's not a matter of durability more than responsiveness. And again, hardly the DC Arcade Stick parts are Sanwa. Some people have tried to change them for Sanwa ones before and were totally different.

[Rastan78]

The joystick on the pro stick is authentic (that's the LS-32 oxtsu refers to). The buttons are not arcade buttons but are at least decent quality. I had one of these a long time ago and the joysticks were actually JLF-TP-8Y rather than LS-32. I've also seen a couple pictures of the insides of others that had LS-32. Maybe they produced batches with both types of sticks?

Don't recall anything about breaking the base. Seems like you could just unscrew the baseplate and then loosen the bolts that hold on the control panel from underneath. Should be a piece of cake to replace the buttons. You will need to make wire leads going from the arcade buttons to the PCB. It has those pin style leads on the stock buttons that are soldered directly to the PCB.

[Recap]

The joystick on the pro stick is authentic (that's the LS-32 oxtsu refers to). The buttons are not arcade buttons but are at least decent quality. I had one of these a long time ago and the joysticks were actually JLF-TP-8Y rather than LS-32. I've also seen a couple pictures of the insides of others that had LS-32. Maybe they produced batches with both types of sticks?

Yeah, the stick's response is not bad, the best by far of any of the other controllers we mentioned, but still, any Sanwa/Seimitsu stick I've seen on a cab was better. Odd if they're still Seimitsu, but weirder than you had one with a Sanwa stick. The buttons are not "decent" enough for shooting games, but that's me.

Don't recall anything about breaking the base. Seems like you could just unscrew the baseplate and then loosen the bolts that hold on the control panel from underneath.

Actually, you're right. For some stupid reason, I thought the bolts holding the panel were not removable. I'll try to change the buttons one of these days now. Thanks.

[oxtsu]

You are mistaken here. Virtua Stick Pro is using Seimitsu LS-32.

How are you this sure? You can't see the parts without breaking the base on this stick. If you know another way, please let me know, since I want to change them. Anyhow, the parts' response is far from a professional result. Hardly they're Seimitsu (and I just bought some Seimitsu buttons for my custom stick, so I should know), but just my opinion.

Well, I'm sorry to say again but you judged wrong. The VS Pro is using a genuine LS-32 plain and simple.

re: JLF in a VS Pro as Rastan78 mentions - I haven't seen such an instance. Never heard of it either I'm afraid. Most likely it was someone else who modified it (possible to change while looking exactly stock).

Calling the standard VS crappy is a bit of a stretch. It is using a prototype LS-33 which is still quite good, despite its' weaker feeling and durability compared to LS-32. Sega DC stick is much the same story, but based off of Sanwa JLF. If you could try the VS and DC sticks when they are brand new then it reveals a more accurate picture. With the durability problem though, it is only a small matter of time before turning to mush and needing to swap to the genuine high grade spec.

Indeed, I own the three Virtua Stick models for the SS and bought them brand new (actually I sold the second model due to its poor quality). Same with the DC Arcade Stick. It's not a matter of durability more than responsiveness. And again, hardly the DC Arcade Stick parts are Sanwa. Some people have tried to change them for Sanwa ones before and were totally different.

Let us look at things from different angles, it's my point before. From the beginner view, they would want the best manufactured stick for console (in this case Saturn). The VS (HSS-0136) is very close. My own feeling is that there is no substitute for the genuine spec. But I'm not going to preach it to everyone as the only way, though it would be best if they did. It's not realistic for their situation most times.

Second thing, there is two kinds of response as I see it. One from stick to player another from stick to machine. The Sanwa/Seimitsu stick is the best at communicating to the player and to a lesser degree the machine. Most any quality stick will give the suitable response from stick to machine. It's the response/precise feedback from stick to player that is the deficit. This is why the best players are able to compensate and use damn near anything microswitched (and functioning as new hopefully).

As for durability, there is a big difference I have found between the new and used ones. The VS and Sega DC sticks are feeling like shit after awhile, not so much when they are new. It's the point. The stick in the DC is not actually Sanwa of course, I said "based" from. It is using the same JLF-TP microswitch assembly but with a much cheaper base molding for cheap cost and high production (tolerances are increased...durability and dead-on precise feedback suffers). The dimensions are near identical, BTW, the reason it doesn't fit without mods is because the bolt pattern is different and the JLF has side posts which obstruct mounting.

[Recap]

Well, I'm sorry to say again but you judged wrong. The VS Pro is using a genuine LS-32 plain and simple.

Well, as you can see, I was refering to the whole "parts", that is, buttons included. Given the button's quality of the VSP I help calling them "genuine" or "arcade-based". Glad to know now that the stick was indeed Seimitsu, but it should be a low-quality model which wasn't used much on cabs.

Let us look at things from different angles, it's my point before. From the beginner view, they would want the best manufactured stick for console (in this case Saturn). The VS (HSS-0136) is very close. My own feeling is that there is no substitute for the genuine spec. But I'm not going to preach it to everyone as the only way, though it would be best if they did. It's not realistic for their situation most times.

Even if a beginner asks me, I'll always tell him about the best possible solution. Beginners use to regret later to have ignored it.

Second thing, there is two kinds of response as I see it. One from stick to player another from stick to machine. The Sanwa/Seimitsu stick is the best at communicating to the player and to a lesser degree the machine. Most any quality stick will give the suitable response from stick to machine. It's the response/precise feedback from stick to player that is the deficit. This is why the best players are able to compensate and use damn near anything microswitched (and functioning as new hopefully).

As for durability, there is a big difference I have found between the new and used ones. The VS and Sega DC sticks are feeling like shit after awhile, not so much when they are new.

I much agree there. Let me add that the "feeling" on those two controllers is pretty shitty from the very beginning. The DC one seems to be OK until you experience how the stick bounces back when you tap it. Not good for 2D fighting, you know.

The stick in the DC is not actually Sanwa of course, I said "based" from. It is using the same JLF-TP microswitch assembly but with a much cheaper base molding for cheap cost and high production (tolerances are increased...durability and dead-on precise feedback suffers). The dimensions are near identical, BTW, the reason it doesn't fit without mods is because the bolt pattern is different and the JLF has side posts which obstruct mounting.

Cool. A crappy, crappy stick still far from a Sanwa one, anyways.