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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:36 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 948
Do you know if the X550 also has a rolling scan? If those large PVMs do and if they ever become affordable I'd be all over one.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:34 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 269
Could anyone with an MEU unit tell me whether the fan on the unit always stays active when the device is switched on?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:50 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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Can’t get my used MEUWX2 to display on anything. Dunno if a lemon or you genuinely need a LMD. Has anyone got one to work on another non Sony display?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:09 am 


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strayan wrote:
Can’t get my used MEUWX2 to display on anything. Dunno if a lemon or you genuinely need a LMD. Has anyone got one to work on another non Sony display?


Didn't Fudoh said that it works on non-LMD? Though you need a monitor which supports 1280x768, did you try with one that support 1280x768?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:24 am 


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As said, there's no communication channel available in the connection between the two units, so it might be down to the sink's EDID data.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:41 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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Yeah tried with a monitor that takes 1280x768 and also connected to an Extron 301HD and Crestron HD scaler (surely should work with these in the chain?).

The fan on the unit doesn’t spin up so maybe the unit has a power supply issue? Front lights come on though...


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:15 pm 


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No RGBs or RGsB?


It might suppprt RGBs through dB -15
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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:19 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2017
Posts: 23
Fudoh wrote:
As said, there's no communication channel available in the connection between the two units, so it might be down to the sink's EDID data.

How does one edit EDID data of a monitor?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:25 am 


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There are small EDID minder boxes which can save the edid from a connected monitor (you would need somebody with a Sony LCD to program these) and which you plug between your source and your actual monitor.

Some boxes also allow you to load up EDID files through USB or other connections.

I would try to contact somebody with a LMD/LCD setup (here on the thread?) and maybe you can try a splitter setup, where the processing unit gets connected to the Sony LCD and a generic one at the same time - to see what happens in that case and the narrow down the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2017
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strayan wrote:
Yeah tried with a monitor that takes 1280x768 and also connected to an Extron 301HD and Crestron HD scaler (surely should work with these in the chain?).

The fan on the unit doesn’t spin up so maybe the unit has a power supply issue? Front lights come on though...

I don't hear my fan running neither but it works. Guess you need the LMD monitor...


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:25 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 873
I've seen two LMD models that use 640 x 480 panels. The 1410 and the 2020 (a 14" and a 20"). Personally, these are the only two LMDs I would even consider for retro gaming.

The native res of the panel is all that matters with flat screens. The supported resolutions are only the signals they can accept (and then scale (badly) to their fixed native res).

A native 640 x 480 panel is about as ideal as flat screens get for 240p gaming. 240p games on a cga CRT were always displayed using 480 lines (240 for the image and 240 lines left blank). Even without shaders or fake "scanlines", 240p content looked nice (ish) on all the 480p panels I have seen.

I have never heard of any retro gamers reviewing the 20" 480P LMD but there is a YouTube video with someone showing the 14" with various retro games. It looks OK but not as good as on a crt.

It is worth remembering that the response to the LMD line from the pro community was so poor that Sony reopened a Trinitron crt plant. While 480i CRT tv's are still being thrown away, why bother with these for retro gaming?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:20 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 948
Classicgamer wrote:
It is worth remembering that the response to the LMD line from the pro community was so poor that Sony reopened a Trinitron crt plant. While 480i CRT tv's are still being thrown away, why bother with these for retro gaming?


I agree with you but I can see the case for using one of these for retro. They're compact (compared to a CRT of equivalent screen size), should at least have better colors than any commercial stuff, no need to settle for "almost perfect" convergence and linearity and all those other things that LCD does have over CRT, much less expensive that pro monitors nowadays. I could see myself using one if my situation didn't let me keep a fat CRT around.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:55 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 269
Fudoh wrote:
There are small EDID minder boxes which can save the edid from a connected monitor (you would need somebody with a Sony LCD to program these) and which you plug between your source and your actual monitor.

Some boxes also allow you to load up EDID files through USB or other connections.

I would try to contact somebody with a LMD/LCD setup (here on the thread?) and maybe you can try a splitter setup, where the processing unit gets connected to the Sony LCD and a generic one at the same time - to see what happens in that case and the narrow down the problem.


Looks the the HD fury Dr HDMi might do the trick. Why do I get the feeling that this whole exercise is going to end up costing me several hundred dollars :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:37 am 


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There should be rather cheap Extron DVI EDID boxes that basically do the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:44 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
There should be rather cheap Extron DVI EDID boxes that basically do the same.


Yeah saw those... but postage to Australia is the killer.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:00 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 873
fernan1234 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
It is worth remembering that the response to the LMD line from the pro community was so poor that Sony reopened a Trinitron crt plant. While 480i CRT tv's are still being thrown away, why bother with these for retro gaming?


I agree with you but I can see the case for using one of these for retro. They're compact (compared to a CRT of equivalent screen size), should at least have better colors than any commercial stuff, no need to settle for "almost perfect" convergence and linearity and all those other things that LCD does have over CRT, much less expensive that pro monitors nowadays. I could see myself using one if my situation didn't let me keep a fat CRT around.


I'm not sure on how great the early LMD color fidelity was or how much it really matters for old games. You can assume that it is better than the commercial monitors of their time but I suspect that today's commercial TV's would blow them out the water.

Space limitations are the only good reason to use a flatscreen for retro gaming but, if you had to, a decent plasma or any Oled is the way to go imo. The relative affordability of decent upscalers with minimal lag changes things.

Anyway, we're all just speculating on screen we haven't seen. If anyone here has a 20" 480p (native) LMD, please share your experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:31 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 948
I just got one of the processing units (MEU-WX2) to play around with, trying to have it output to a broadcast monitor, not a PC monitor, let alone an LMD it was made for. I know there was some discussion earlier about potentially needing EDID configuration to get this unit to display on non-LMD monitors. So far I only tried using a simple DVI-HDMI cable, but that didn't give me any picture, or even access to the OSD menu, whether connected directly to the display or through an Extron DSC 301 HD with the input EDID configured to (hopefully) match what the MEU wants.

Tomorrow I'll try get a DVI-D to VGA adapter to get the signal into either the DSC 301 or an Rxi 203 with EDID minder. If anyone has any experience or suggestions on using these units on non-LMD monitors, please share!


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:22 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 269
fernan1234 wrote:
I just got one of the processing units (MEU-WX2) to play around with, trying to have it output to a broadcast monitor, not a PC monitor, let alone an LMD it was made for. I know there was some discussion earlier about potentially needing EDID configuration to get this unit to display on non-LMD monitors. So far I only tried using a simple DVI-HDMI cable, but that didn't give me any picture, or even access to the OSD menu, whether connected directly to the display or through an Extron DSC 301 HD with the input EDID configured to (hopefully) match what the MEU wants.

Tomorrow I'll try get a DVI-D to VGA adapter to get the signal into either the DSC 301 or an Rxi 203 with EDID minder. If anyone has any experience or suggestions on using these units on non-LMD monitors, please share!


I never managed to get mine working and will have another crack when I’m on leave again. I’ve also been keeping an eye out for a reasonably priced LMD. Would love to know if you make any progress.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:24 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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strayan wrote:
I never managed to get mine working and will have another crack when I’m on leave again. I’ve also been keeping an eye out for a reasonably priced LMD. Would love to know if you make any progress.


I ended up just ordering a relatively cheap LMD and will use it first of all to test that this MEU is not a lemon, and then I'll try to record its EDID with an Extron EDID minder box to hopefully get the MEU to output to other monitors or scalers. For some reason I have a good feeling about this processor, so I really hope it works out. I'll be sure post again with results.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:06 am 


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Who else has tried the 480p LMD monitors? Overall the 14" monitor alone doesn't seem good for games. Super Mario World looked okay and motion was smooth but sometimes blurred, and the contrast/dark details are lacking. Golden Axe 2 had issues for me - moving objects/sprites and scrolling backgrounds were not processed properly (deinterlaced?). Colors shifted and moving objects sometimes seemed translucent. Maybe that monitor has problems with Genesis 2 video signal, or just some games and systems. SNES seems okay though ; RGB input


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:32 am 



Joined: 20 Oct 2016
Posts: 25
I'm still waiting for my Sony LMD 1410SC. My friend has one for me, but I have no time to meet with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:45 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 948
After checking out an LMD 152C (the 15 inch 4:3 model), I wouldn't bother with any of the LMD monitors that don't pair up with the MEU units. All the magic comes from the MEU, and I doubt the standalone monitors have similar processing capabilities. The monitor itself (from the series that pairs with the MEU at least) is pretty garbo all things considered. It's an old LCD after all.

I still haven't been able to get the MEU to output to another monitor, though there's still a couple of things I need to troubleshoot before giving up. If it's really locked only to LMD use that would be tragic (and make the MEU of very little value), because I find quite a few things to be very impressive about it. If the scaling looks good even on this crappy LCD, I can't imagine what it would look like on a good monitor (at least if displayed pixel exact without further scaling). It's clearly from a time when Sony still fully respected analogue video. It does a good job with the aspect ratios. The most interesting thing I've found so far is that it must be using a frame buffer, since 15khz progressive/interlace transitions are perfectly smooth, as on CRT. And yet the lag doesn't feel too significant, though I haven't tested lag in any deliberate way yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:56 pm 


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Yeah, the early Sony LMD monitors alone seem to have no merit. I think that they're similar to the basic small LCD TVs of the generation. Sega Genesis is incompatible, so I expect problems with many consoles ; just convenient video inputs that cannot be utilized. :cry:

I'd be surprised if someone has better luck with any of the LMD VGA displays, which I know are much different from the later models. The response time is poor and of course progressive scan isn't supported. My experience - PS2 240p component video works but motion handling is messed up or just very slow. N64 s-video works along with SNES RGB. I see no reason why Sony should have sold these 480i monitors.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:12 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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For anyone who may be interested, after trying a bunch of different things available to me, I've given up on using the MEU with a non compatible LMD monitor. I really wanted it to work because besides the very nice deinterlacing it seems to perform, it also does resolution changes flawlessly, at least when displayed on the LMD monitor: https://youtu.be/2ceb6GY0f-Q. It also does drop shadow effects well (had to use slow mo to capture it with my crappy phone cam): https://youtu.be/VcMsuxuMIHk. My impression is that if it could do what it does on an LMD but on an actually good screen, it would beat (for me) an OSSC or XRGB (Framemeister or the older ones).

Basically, it does a great job at reproducing a CRT-like experience for old games, within the obvious limitations of a digital display (and even the additional limitations of a bad old LCD like the LMD). All analog sources, all resolutions, all sync types, they all simply work like they would on, say, a CRT PVM. After all, it's a Sony~

I did get it to display on another monitor only via an Extron DVI distribution amplifier, which is the only device I could get to send the appropriate EDID communication between the LMD (15C, 4:3 model) and MEU as it simply passes the EDID info from the LMD on input 1 without trying to record or emulate it. But my monitor, which is a broadcast monitor, was unable to sync to the duplicated output from the DVI DA, though the monitor is capable of displaying PC resolutions like 1024x768. Putting an Extron DSC 301 in between (via DVI to HDMI adapter) does get a picture displayed (can see the MEU menu perfectly), but as soon as an analog signal goes into the MEU the digital signal to the Extron DSC becomes unstable, losing sync every couple of seconds, and producing a vertically jittery image when displayed.

I also tried putting HDMI to VGA and DVI to VGA DACs between the DVI DA and DSC 301, and both resulted in the DSC reading an incorrect input resolution, there is no lost sync but the picture still looks wrong and very jittery, and game resolution changes do cause a brief sync loss (which was one of the main selling points of the MEU for me).

All attempts to capture the LMD's EDID (via Extron, Kramer, and ConnectPro devices) and trick the MEU to output to a different monitor directly failed. Got closest with an Extron DVI 101, which did seem to record the LMD's EDID and made the MEU activate and send power to the LMD, but it did not seem to actually output anything to the DVI 101. It was the same with a Dr. HDMI 4K, but as soon as the other monitor was connected it seemed to switch to the latter's EDID, making the MEU deactivate. I also tried using a different amplifier by Kramer, which had the same effect as the DVI 101, getting no input from the MEU. To me it looks like the MEU does checks on the LMD monitor at different times or in certain sequence, something that the EDID minders and emulators cannot replicate, perhaps?

It could be that an amplifier/splitter setup could work when using a different monitor than the broadcast one I tested. Perhaps a PC monitor, or even an old Plasma with DVI input, could do better. I think it would be worth it for someone to explore this, since I still think that despite the fixed output resolution (which is probably possible to scale nicely), since in a lot of ways the MEU performs like an ideal, no-fuss ADC. Maybe someone like Fudoh with access to a lot of gear and displays could revisit it and see if a solution is available. Unfortunately a compatible LMD monitor will be needed in the process.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:12 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 269
Were you able to view the raw EDID captured by the Dr HDMI with the EDID utility available on the hdfury website? Can you send it to me?

Thanks for the write-up


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:15 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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strayan wrote:
Were you able to view the raw EDID captured by the Dr HDMI with the EDID utility available on the hdfury website? Can you send it to me?

Thanks for the write-up


No, in hindsight I should have. After being frustrated with the Dr HDMI's failure to work with the MEU, I promptly returned it. If I could get my hands on another Dr HDMI I would capture the info in case it may be useful. I'll hang on to the LMD monitor anyway so I can do this eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 pm 


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thanks for the extensive testing! Sony probably uses some of the unused lines on the DVI connection for communication between the two devices. Actually the same what Analogue does with the DAC to ensure it's only used on their own machines.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:44 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 948
Fudoh wrote:
thanks for the extensive testing! Sony probably uses some of the unused lines on the DVI connection for communication between the two devices. Actually the same what Analogue does with the DAC to ensure it's only used on their own machines.


That's probably it. It sucks they really locked them together, because as a stand alone processor this would have been killer. Maybe they wanted absolute control of which monitors actually work, knowing that as a processor the MEU may not perform as well with untested monitors.

What I don't get is why the picture I get out of the DVI DA's output 2 sucks so much. I can't figure out if it may be that or the DSC 301 to blame, since I need both of them to even get a picture on the non-LMD monitor.

I guess something else I've left to try is to get the picture on my CRT multisync monitor, bypassing the 301 at least. But I'd need to change some wiring in my setup for that and I'm kinda tired of troubleshooting this thing. Maybe at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:58 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Before putting all the stuff away I remembered I have an Extron RGB-HDMI A that I could use instead of the DSC 301, so I gave that a quick try and it indeed worked much better. I could get a stable image from both 480i and 240p games most of the time, though there were still a few sync drops, but no jittery picture! Unfortunately the output has to be scaled to be displayed on my monitor, even if the scaling is back to 1024x768, since using the "lock" output mode failed to produce a picture, so the scaling may be at play in the sync drops. But this did show that the picture can be quite good! It's a bit soft (or very soft compared to what you can get from an OSSC), but that may be alright for some people. It almost eliminates the need for scanlines, looking more like a consumer CRT with low TVL count. It was pleasing to see the MEU's picture without the nasty pixel blur of the LMD, and with much better blacks and colors.

So there's hope. On the other hand, I have a Faroudja processor coming my way, if what I see from it is similar or better, and if it handles other stuff like resolution changes well, I'd lose my interest in messing around with the MEU given how complicated it seems to be to get it to output to other displays.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:44 am 



Joined: 06 Apr 2020
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Hey, hi, just found this thread randomly when looking about getting the MEU working with another monitor and i was doing kinda the same tests.

i have done these:

(pics on spoilers)

    1. Connect my Dell monitor to the MEU, no display or "out of sync", but no "clicking" inside the device.
    2. Dumping the EDID info from the original display, burning it on a external EEPROM, connecting it to the MEU, it kinda works, it "clicks" and the dell monitor always works (syncs and i get OSD) but no actual video.
    Spoiler: show
    Image
    Image
    Image

    3. Connecting the EDID lines and 5v of the original monitor to the MEU and connect the Dell monitor to everything else, it works! no issue at all but obviously non practical, the Sony monitor acts as a big dumb "dongle".
    Spoiler: show
    [img]http://www.leoromo.cl/sony/20200406_144649.jpg[/img
    Image
    ]

    4. Dumped the original rom from the monitor, this does not seems to have the EDID info itself or is encoded somehow, so not working at all.


in these test i noticed that the thing does not do some weird communications over other pins, i connected the original display with the minimal cables only (manually jumpered the hotplug detect and other stuff) and was able to still work, so all the communications are over the i2c.
Something is obviously missing, there is some extra communications with the monitor, i mean there is a led that is controlled, the fans (not totally sure about this) and also the power led seems to be controlled over that, i need to sniff the full handshake.
You can just take the tiny monitor board, plug it only the gnd, scl, sda and 5v and you get any monitor working, so it's kinda a solution if the original monitor dies (the tiny board will fit inside the MEU.)
in all of my tests i never had a big issue with resolutions, or image issues. i mainly use it for computers, and the iigs, atari and amiga, also composite video (sega genesis shown here) works just fine.

Here are the full eeprom dump, it's an 24c16: http://www.leoromo.cl/sony/sonyfull.bin
and the EDID dump: http://www.leoromo.cl/sony/sony.edid


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