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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:25 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Retroman wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
If you get a chance you should throw some 480i stuff like PS2 or GC/Wii games, or DVD movies. I'm more curious now about how it would handle that. In 2004 there were still a lot of 480i DVDs going around so I imagine these monitors/processors may have been suitable for those too.


What's a good PS2 game to test?

Meanwhile, PS2 Dragon Quest VIII on LMD-210 with MEU-WX1: https://youtu.be/YU9PAn5r_xI


Looks like text and 2D elements can look really nice! 3D graphics may look a bit rougher or more jaggy. Maybe you can try one of the Metal Gear Solid games, off the top of my head those are PS2 games that could make for a good test.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:09 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
@Retroman: I'm pretty sure I had the MEU-WX running on another display (or attach to another processor) briefly already. I mean it's a standard DVI output and there's no communication. If there was a lockout, you could get around it with a simply EDID minder and by copying the LMD's EDID data into it.

@Fudoh, I got this message when trying to connect the MEU-WX1 to Dell P2314H monitor I got laying around:

"The current input timing is not supported by the monitor display. Please change your input timing to 1920x1080, 60Hz or any other monitor listed timing as per the monitor specifications."

Do you know how to make the MEU-WX1 to output the correct timing?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:22 pm 


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You can't. It only supports the one specific widescreen resolution of the 16:10 LMDs as well as (possibly) one 4:3 res. MOST monitors should support 1280x768 though. Makes me wonder why your Dell doesn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:31 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
You can't. It only supports the one specific widescreen resolution of the 16:10 LMDs as well as (possibly) one 4:3 res. MOST monitors should support 1280x768 though. Makes me wonder why your Dell doesn't.


Dunno if that is the reason why, but I just checked the manual and 1280x768 is not listed in the list of supported resolutions, the closest listed is 1024x768.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:36 pm 


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yeah, it probably is, but the Dells usually aren't this picky and 1280x768 isn't THIS uncommon.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:42 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
yeah, it probably is, but the Dells usually aren't this picky and 1280x768 isn't THIS uncommon.


All the old 480p/720p TV’s I own have a 1280x768 mode which you have to enable in menu. Odd that Dell doesn’t support this resolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:39 pm 


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I have a Sony mfm-ht75w TV/monitor, but I was considering one of the old 640 x 480p LMD monitors for retro gaming. However, my 17" widescreen does not process 240p action properly.

The still image looks good overall and with good 4:3 sharp upscale, but any movement on the screen results in a altered display with a smoothed-looking upscale that reverts back to the nice sharp image after movement stops. I saw no ghosting, but I don't know what this effect is called. What is the likely problem? I use the component input usually, but s-video and RGB d-15 inputs are options. I don't know how to access service settings, but could changing certain settings fix issues on my TV or the LMD monitors?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:15 pm 


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Quote:
I saw no ghosting, but I don't know what this effect is called. What is the likely problem?

that's caused by the image treated as 480i instead of 240p. So whenever any movement sets in, video mode deinterlacing (along with smoothing) is applied.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:04 am 


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I tried s-video input and the display is similar with 240p motion. I have no de-15 adapters to try unfortunately. Also, I tried every known method for service mode access but it doesn't work. There are no progressive video options in the main menu either.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:15 am 



Joined: 28 Nov 2017
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fernan1234 wrote:
Retroman wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
If you get a chance you should throw some 480i stuff like PS2 or GC/Wii games, or DVD movies. I'm more curious now about how it would handle that. In 2004 there were still a lot of 480i DVDs going around so I imagine these monitors/processors may have been suitable for those too.


What's a good PS2 game to test?

Meanwhile, PS2 Dragon Quest VIII on LMD-210 with MEU-WX1: https://youtu.be/YU9PAn5r_xI


Looks like text and 2D elements can look really nice! 3D graphics may look a bit rougher or more jaggy. Maybe you can try one of the Metal Gear Solid games, off the top of my head those are PS2 games that could make for a good test.


Jaggy but very sharp. Looks like on true CRT but without scanlines. I guess if scanlines are added, it will look just like a real CRT. That's what Sony claimed anyway that their LMD monitors with the MEU-WX1 (and 2) were made to reproduce CRT-like/quality images.

MGS2: https://youtu.be/tUd3yLUhj30
VF4: https://youtu.be/Z5-xHYEVZbg


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:16 pm 



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Retroman wrote:


That looks really good to me. Have ordered a MEU-WX2 to experiment with.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:30 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Yeah it does look really nice. Some people may even prefer that look without the scanlines. But for those who want it to look as close to a CRT as possible, pairing it with a scanline generator could make this thing an excellent retro gaming solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 pm 


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Given the year when the MEU-WX units were released, it might be a Silicon Image based deinterlacer. Looks a lot like it. With all the bob'ing these days on the OSSC and Retrotink machines, people seem to have forgotten what a good deinterlacer can do :mrgreen:

Also, scanlining won't work, since the 768p output res really doesn't allow it. Using an analogue scanliner, you'd get 384 scanlines which won't match the actual resolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:15 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Also, scanlining won't work, since the 768p output res really doesn't allow it. Using an analogue scanliner, you'd get 384 scanlines which won't match the actual resolution.


The 4:3 LMD monitors output at 480p, no? For those it would work great.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:20 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
Given the year when the MEU-WX units were released, it might be a Silicon Image based deinterlacer. Looks a lot like it. With all the bob'ing these days on the OSSC and Retrotink machines, people seem to have forgotten what a good deinterlacer can do :mrgreen:

Also, scanlining won't work, since the 768p output res really doesn't allow it. Using an analogue scanliner, you'd get 384 scanlines which won't match the actual resolution.


I have the SOIA as well, and I would say the 240p processing of the MEU-WX1 is better...


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:22 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2017
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fernan1234 wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
Also, scanlining won't work, since the 768p output res really doesn't allow it. Using an analogue scanliner, you'd get 384 scanlines which won't match the actual resolution.


The 4:3 LMD monitors output at 480p, no? For those it would work great.


Yes. The LMD-210 (4:3 aspect ratio) in one of those videos I posted does support 480P.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:43 am 


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Retroman wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
Also, scanlining won't work, since the 768p output res really doesn't allow it. Using an analogue scanliner, you'd get 384 scanlines which won't match the actual resolution.


The 4:3 LMD monitors output at 480p, no? For those it would work great.


Yes. The LMD-210 (4:3 aspect ratio) in one of those videos I posted does support 480P.


But isn't the output with the MEU-WX1 still 1024x768?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:20 am 


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The 210 is a XGA panel (1024x768). The MEU-WX outputs XGA to that display. The display itself certainly also supports 480p input, but then you wouldn't use the MEU's scaling engine and I don't think you can get the MEU to output that res. The MEU will always send the highest possible scan rate to the LMDs.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:58 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
The 210 is a XGA panel (1024x768). The MEU-WX outputs XGA to that display. The display itself certainly also supports 480p input, but then you wouldn't use the MEU's scaling engine and I don't think you can get the MEU to output that res. The MEU will always send the highest possible scan rate to the LMDs.


So if an LMD has a native resolution of 1920x1080, does that mean that the MEU will send a scan rate of 1080p?

https://pro.sony/en_GL/products/broadca ... /lmd-2110w


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:04 pm 


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the four digit LMDs weren't built for the external MEU processors. They have everything built-in instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:26 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
the four digit LMDs weren't built for the external MEU processors. They have everything built-in instead.


Does the four digit LMDs have a better built-in scaling processor than the external MEU one?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:13 pm 


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By now I have three Sony OLEDs, two PVMs and one BVM and these have fantastic processing. I would assume that the 1080p LMDs have better processing that the really dated MEU units, but not as good as the top tier OLEDs. This applies to 480i and higher. I assume that the LMDs with built-in processing can no longer treat 240p without applying unnecessary deinterlacing.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:30 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
By now I have three Sony OLEDs, two PVMs and one BVM and these have fantastic processing. I would assume that the 1080p LMDs have better processing that the really dated MEU units, but not as good as the top tier OLEDs. This applies to 480i and higher. I assume that the LMDs with built-in processing can no longer treat 240p without applying unnecessary deinterlacing.


Oh I see you got a new OLED to add to the collection, congrats.

And thanks, these seem like a better option than the whole LMD + MEU combo for everything but 240p.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:57 pm 


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Oh I see you got a new OLED to add to the collection, congrats.

yes, it's a BVM-E250.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:05 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Oh I see you got a new OLED to add to the collection, congrats.

yes, it's a BVM-E250.


Nice, that's a 2011 model I see, how's the input lag/latency on it?


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:11 pm 


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Nice, that's a 2011 model I see

yes, it was Sony's first BVM OLED (something like $25,000). Later the same year the PVM-2541 was introduced at a quarter of the price and I just wanted to see what warrants THAT difference in price.

Even comparing the 2541 and the E250, the later is one is a beast, with twice the depth and and an external controller box. The PVM-A250 in comparison to both is a ultra light weight.

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how's the input lag/latency on it?

haven't tested it yet. I actually didn't have it running at my place yet - only at the seller's place when picking it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:44 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
yes, it was Sony's first BVM OLED (something like $25,000).


Yeah I seen, it's actually not that far off from it's original launch price now: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _OLED.html


Fudoh wrote:
Later the same year the PVM-2541 was introduced at a quarter of the price and I just wanted to see what warrants THAT difference in price.


So did you found out what warrants an extra 20k? Both seem to use TRIMASTER technology and it has a rated lifespan of 30,000 hours.


Fudoh wrote:
Even comparing the 2541 and the E250, the later is one is a beast, with twice the depth and and an external controller box. The PVM-A250 in comparison to both is a ultra light weight.


In terms of just actual weight or also in terms of functions, performance, picture quality etc? Because the A250 is listed as a replacement model for the 2541 and cost about 5k (so 20k less than the BVM-E250).


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:53 pm 


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Quote:
Yeah I seen, it's actually not that far off from it's original launch price now

BHPhotovideo's listings are weird, since most the items simply aren't available anymore. Maybe the quoted price was the last one available from Sony before they went EOL.

Quote:
So did you found out what warrants an extra 20k? Both seem to use TRIMASTER technology.

as said, I haven't really used the E250 yet.

Quote:
In terms of just actual weight or also in terms of functions

as of now, just in physical terms.

Quote:
Because the A250 is listed as a replacement model for the 2541 and cost about 5k (so 20k less than the BVM-E250).

I would love to decide for one and ditch the other two, but it's hard and not as easy as I would like it to be. I'll probably find something on the E250 that I like over the others :mrgreen:

2541 vs. A250 is hard already. The steel chassis on the 2541 is great and the 2541 gives you user control over how interlaced material is displayed (bob, blend, adaptive deinterlacing and scanlined "field simulation"), while the A250 has no options in that regard whatsoever.

The E250 does NOT offer sample and hold, it's strictly rolling scan. The 2541 and A250 both let you decide between sample and hold and rolling scan. You can even map it to front button to simple switch with a single button whenever you like.

For anyone without either, they're all great and I think the prices are reasonable by now. I see them comparably priced to the D24s. And I would argue that any of the OLED models paired with an OSSC isn't worse than a D24.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:13 pm 



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I wish I knew where I could fine one of those OLED B/PVMs for ~$3000.


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 Post subject: Re: Sony lmd series LCD multi-format monitors (WXGA)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:19 pm 


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I paid around 2,000 EUR for each of them.

PVM-2541 on ebay.com ended for $2,400 just three days ago, so US pricings seem to be around the same.

I think finding an E250 is tough. I saw 2nd hand ones still go for 12,000 only a year ago, but for the others $2000 is reasonable. After all they weren't THIS expensive when new.


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