Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Xyga wrote: EDIT: I can force it down to 92.36Hz on the VP30 w/out abt102.
Interesting, what happens when you set frame lock to 60hz ?

Did you try removing the RGB int.
yes I did try that, I can't get a stable image on any of my CRT's (except the multiscan). everything else seems to demand composite sync from the interface.

although, I bet any type of decent sync combiner circuit would work.

do you have acces to any 120hz displays? (Crt, lcd, plasma )
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Xyga
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Xyga »

Blair wrote:
Xyga wrote: EDIT: I can force it down to 92.36Hz on the VP30 w/out abt102.
Interesting, what happens when you set frame lock to 60hz ?
Both VP's seem to force unlocked 60Hz.
Otherwise I can just switch to 50Hz mode and it shows 59.94Hz lol. But still no picture.
Blair wrote:
Did you try removing the RGB int.
yes I did try that, I can't get a stable image on any of my CRT's (except the multiscan). everything else seems to demand composite sync from the interface.
Even setting sync on Composite from the VP Sync menu won't do ?
If so I think it's really important to mention that from the start as this seems to be a crucial requirement !
Blair wrote:do you have acces to any 120hz display displays? (Crt, lcd, plasma )
Nope I still only have 50~60Hz crt's and lcd's.
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Xyga wrote:If so I think it's really important to mention that from the start as this seems to be a crucial requirement !
that's also a pretty recent discovery, this thread really isn't a "how to guide" at least not right now. just some early experiments.

if anything does come of this, then I'm sure proper step-by-step instructions will be available.

thank you for testing the VP30 by the way.

I also did some testing of digital sources, feeding directly into the HD+ DVI port (this means that any digital signal can be downscaled without analog transcoding) (anything with HDMI or DVI output)

here are some shots I took from PC, PS3, X360 and my S-VHS player.

Image


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

this last one is a VHS tape (I'm processing it through the VP50 Pro and feeding it into the HD+ so I get much better deinterlacing)
Last edited by Blair on Thu May 21, 2015 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Xyga wrote:Both VP's seem to force unlocked 60Hz.
Otherwise I can just switch to 50Hz mode and it shows 59.94Hz lol. But still no picture.
I bet that's because the "Line Rate" (horizontal frequency) is still above 15kHz. you need to find timings that will force that number down (probably by increasing the porches, I've been able to get down to 18kHz on my 50Pro but that's still too high for most CRTs)

it would be easier for you to see what the horizontal and vertical frequencies of your signal are if you had an RGB interface with a readout display. (although I wouldn't really spend money on that right now).
Last edited by Blair on Thu May 21, 2015 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BazookaBen
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by BazookaBen »

Blair wrote:Image
Axiom Verge is 270p, so when you're converting to 240p you're basically trying to combine 270 lines into 240 lines, which doesn't work out well mathematically. That's why you don't have very clean pixels compared to this screen grab:

Image
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

BazookaBen wrote:Axiom Verge is 270p, so when you're converting to 240p you're basically trying to combine 270 lines into 240 lines, which doesn't work out well mathematically. That's why you don't have very clean pixels compared to this screen grab:
not really, I can compensate for the resolution difference. but the main reason why some of my shots are little blurry is because I'm not using a tripod and you're basically seeing motion blur because I have shaky hands, also I'm resizing pictures from 2560x1920 to 720x540 and saving them at a fairly high compression ratio

I can use motion compensation (like the shots below), that adds image processing time and I just wanted to post something quick. (I don't have a lot of time to play video games unfortunately :( )

plus, it's a very cheap cell phone censor. I keep thinking about purchasing a dedicated point-and-shoot or even a DSLR.

anyway, trust me it looks much better in person on my PVM – 20L5.

if you want I could just repost my images with motion compensation turned on. that might be a better representation of what it looks like.

Image

Image
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BazookaBen
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by BazookaBen »

Blair wrote:not really, I can compensate for the resolution difference.


How so?
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

BazookaBen wrote:How so?
well, I could just output at 270p or adjust the input aspect ratio to compensate for the difference in resolution (but you'd probably get some slight letter boxing/pill boxing that way. there's also the overscan and underscan settings to help alleviate that)

you can also use the zoom and stretch functions to change the size and shape of the pixels if you wanted to do it that way.

lots of options.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by telemetry »

Sorry to necro this, but I decided to go through this thread and attempt this with my VP30 (non-ABT102). I was more successful than I expected.

I began by trying Fudoh's numbers, while running the VP30 through my AA9A60 into my Vizio. You'd probably assume I was doomed to failure from the start, but interestingly when I plug the Y-sync of the AA into my Vizio's composite plug, I get a (colorless of course) real-time feed of the signal (whereas Component just says "unknown signal"). I didn't expect this, but it allowed me to tweak the parameters and try to the line the signal up by sight...kinda fun for the first 30 minutes.

After giving up on guessing numbers, I ended up using the modeline calculators posted by Blair in combination; maybe everyone else realized it, but by using the first one to constrain the resolution and frequency boundaries, the second one will reverse-calculate the front/back porch and sync sizes.

To my greater surprise, the Vizio recognized and handshook on its HDMI (!!!) input, whereas the AA -> component unsurprisingly did not. I'd post a pic, but what do you guys use for hosting?
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

I'd post a pic, but what do you guys use for hosting?
imgur's fine.

I assume your VP30 does not have a ABT102 card, right ?
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by telemetry »

Yeah, no ABT102 here -- so I don't have the single-field scaling/multiple "gamemodes" for de-interlacing. In particular I was hoping I could get this to work for MM9, but lacking any CRT monitors I just figured I'd goof around with my HDTV and see what happens. Didn't expect to get the signal output timing values to work, honestly.

Image

Here's my attempt with downscaling the Wii version of Mega Man 9 to 240p. In the end I was surprised that this worked, but apparently my Vizio has a very tolerant HDMI input.

It looks fine, but it unfortunately has some downsides:

- the Vizio disables all normal TV input controls (sharpness, color, tint, aspect control) -- presumably it figures those would be pointless for a non-standard input and just displays the exact pixel 1:1? The loss of sharpness hurts, since even with 480p the Vizio needs a *hint* of sharpness or it starts to lose details.

- trying to use this for gameplay results in a far slower 15FPS-ish effect, presumably this is a timing issue with the modeline, or the Vizio decides that it doesn't trust the refresh rate for this input.

So I'm surprised it worked at all, but it's not quite usable enough in practice.
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Nice Job on that vp30 telemetry!

When it comes to MM9 (and 10) I find its best to use the 360 or ps3 version if possible, that way you don't have to worry about de-interlacing. (you could also use dolphin I believe)

outputting 240 via HDMI to an LCD doesn't have a lot of benefit, but some early HDMI/DVI enabled CRT television and monitors might be able to display 240p from a digital source.

if I may ask, what model of Vizio is this TV? (does it have a VGA input?)
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by telemetry »

It is a Vizio e500i-A1. No VGA input.

My understanding is that it is a mid-range budget TV from 2013-ish, but it also happens to have decent lag for a cheap TV.

It's true regarding the deinterlacing, but the 360 & PS3 versions of MM9 also have other filters which change the image, so I figure at least the Wii is closer to 240p native -- really, it's like one of those 480i/240p "bad" classic ports. This would probably work well with a CRT or Extron, so I figured I'd give it a shot with the VP30.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by svcoco »

I have an Iscan HD+ that I connected to a CRT TV (Sony Trinitron Wega) using a vga to component cable and I've been trying to output 240p without success.

I tried configuring the HD+ with the timings posted by Fudoh and Blair but the only picture I got until now is this Image
testing with a Dreamcast connected on the s-video input.

How can I calculate the right timings for my TV? I tried the url that Fudoh posted but I don't know what numbers to put :( except for the resolution.

Is there any other option (like Framerate or Sync type) besides Format/Resolution in the HD+ that I need to change to get a proper picture?.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by telemetry »

Use the first calculator link to lock in your resolution (640x240 I suppose?) and the horizontal frequency (15 kHz). It will then calculate the modeline.

You can put that information into the second calculator link to generate front/back porch and other values that you need for the DVDO.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by svcoco »

Finally, in my second attempt, after reading a couple about the related concepts (modeline, sync type, colorspace...) to understand this stuff, I made it, outputting 240p from the DVDO Iscan HD+ to the Sony Wega TV.

Basically what I did was to set the colorspace to YUV, the sync type to Bi-level (now the I know more about the format it seems very obvious) and calculate a modeline that I used as base to start adjusting timings.

Image
Image
Image

I tried with my Sega Saturn with s-video. Now my plan is to buy a RGB cable to improve the image and use this setup.

Question: This configuration is dependent to the input source? I guess the answer is yes because different resolutions, I tried with my gamecube and didn't work with the same timings.

Anyway, these are the timings

Code: Select all

     H – shift 46
     H – size  640
     H – front 6
     H – sync  84
     H – back  46
     V – shift 1
     V – size  240
     V – front 1
     V – sync  5
     V – back  12
Thanks telemetry for your advice
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

I tried with my Sega Saturn with s-video. Now my plan is to buy a RGB cable to improve the image and use this setup.
I don't get what you want to achieve ? Your Saturn is a 15khz source already. What do you gain by running through the iScan and setting the output to 240p except way more lag ? The concept of using an iScan to output in 15khz only makes sense for 480p sources.
Question: This configuration is dependent to the input source? I guess the answer is yes because different resolutions, I tried with my gamecube and didn't work with the same timings.
as long as the sync output is locked to the input the timings will slightly change with the source, yes.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by svcoco »

I don't get what you want to achieve ? Your Saturn is a 15khz source already. What do you gain by running through the iScan and setting the output to 240p except way more lag ? The concept of using an iScan to output in 15khz only makes sense for 480p sources.
As I understand rgb is better than s-video but my TV only has component input so the iscan will help me with the conversion, also I want to use this idea with my sega genesis+32x. I know there is a scart to component converter, but I'm trying to get the most from the iscan.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

oh, ok, but please consider that the iScan will upconvert your 240p to 480p first and then re-convert them to 240p adding quite a bit of lag.

In your case you'd usually use a Scart RGB to component transcoder instead.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by BuckoA51 »

Talk about hatchet where you only need a scalpel :)

Or more accurately I suppose, going in for surgery when all you needed was a band-aid.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

svcoco wrote:Finally, in my second attempt, after reading a couple about the related concepts (modeline, sync type, colorspace...) to understand this stuff, I made it, outputting 240p from the DVDO Iscan HD+ to the Sony Wega TV.


I tried with my Sega Saturn with s-video. Now my plan is to buy a RGB cable to improve the image and use this setup.
awesome work svcoco!

you'll definitely want to use RGB, Component or HDMI input for the best quality when converting to 240p, as the others have mentioned it's not really worth using sources that are already 240p. (even though the increased input leg probably isn't that noticeable on a CRT)

480i, 480p, and 720p sources are definitely a great idea to try with your setup.


PS2 is a great idea, you can get rid of all that interlacing for most games, it has a few 480p titles as well.


GameCube, most games support 480p and those that don't can usually be forced into that mode using Swiss or other tools (you could even use the Game Boy advanced player for some awesome to 240p fun)


Xbox, most of the library is 480p has a lot of great emulators you can use


Wii, very similar to the Xbox with most games supporting progressive modes, has a ton of emulators and the virtual console


PC, the HD+ is great for connecting your computer to the TV ( just use the HDMI output on your video card) tons of great titles and cycle accurate emulators ( even new games) you could play with this method.


anything with HDMI output, pretty much any of the recent game systems can be connected this way. (wiiU might also be a great choice)


I don't think most people realize just how much potential fun a setup like this gives them. if you get a chance svcoco, try some of my suggestions and post a few more pictures. :D
Last edited by Blair on Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by BuckoA51 »

This actually makes me quite tempted to dig out that old Commodore CRT and play around :)
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Phatnightmares »

Hey everyone,
After carefully reading this thread, I was able to recently get my hands on a DVDO iScan HD+ in great condition.

Piggybacking on Blair's post about taking a HDMI/DVI input and outputting it through the Analog RGB output, I was able to come up with the following results.
This was all done from my PS3 into my Sony BVM-D24E1WU.

Image 1080i to 240p

Image 480p to 240p

Image Scott Pilgrim

Image Street Fighter III: Third Strike

Image SoulCalibur IV

Image Mega Man X5 (Zero)

Image Mega Man X5 (X)

Overall, I'm very impressed with my results. Thanks to everyone in this thread who contributed their time and knowledge to make others aware that there are in fact other ways to downscale an image other than the Extron Emotia series. Although you can downscale with the DVDO iScan HD+, I found that the I get the best results and stability when downscaling from 480p.

These are the timings I used for the 240p resolution:

Code: Select all

H-Shift 31
H-Size 320
H-Front 15
H-Sync 31
H-Back 31
H-Total 397

V-Shift 14
V-Size 240
V-Front 14
V-Sync 1
V-Back 28
V-Total 283
Last edited by Phatnightmares on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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orange808
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by orange808 »

There are multiple machines that can output 240p. Unfortunately, the HD+ doesn't offer options to tweak field handling when deinterlacing. I found the 480i to 240p results underwhelming

How does a consumer set handle your timings? I don't think many sets will respond well to 283 lines.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Phatnightmares »

Yeah I saw that as well. Then again, the main purpose for me to down convert is to take newer consoles that run HDMI out, and display them at 240p. Considering an HDMI source will run 480p at it's lowest resolution, I wont need to worry about 480i.

Ultimately, games like Sonic Mania, Binding of Isaac, Scott Pilgrim, etc. is what I would like to see with scanlines. I'm also trying to get the most out of my BVM-D24E1WU.

I haven't tried these timings on a regular CRT, as I don't have one to test with.

If you're mentioning other downscalers/down converters that display 240p, what are they?
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

nice shots Phatnightmares! glad you were able to get some use out of this thread. your scanlines look beautiful.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Phatnightmares »

Blair wrote:nice shots Phatnightmares! glad you were able to get some use out of this thread. your scanlines look beautiful.
Thank you Blair! The way I went about to find the timings was I set my H and V shift to 320x240. Then adjusted the values as best I can until I produced a stable image.
Surprisingly, I also used my ears to calibrate this. At some points, even though the image looked stable, I heard a lot of high pitched hums, which I assumed were sounds coming from applying stress on the monitor.

Which brings me to another topic:
The DVDO iScan HD+ manual says that if you're not careful, you can permanently damage your TV/Monitor. Is using the DVDO iScan HD+ safe using on an expensive monitor like the D24-E1WU?
I've seen you guys post a few links to adjust the timings on your monitor, but I honestly don't know how to read those conversion sites.
Can someone give a brief explanation on how to use those sites?
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Xer Xian »

Bumping this one :) Thanks to the findings in this thread and the help of forum members here, I've been trying to get 480p and 480i down to 240p via creating custom res on a few select scalers. I've had very good results going 480p to 240p with a Corio2 scaler (picture here), but 480i downscaling is a no-go on my unit (misaligned scanlines, horrible flicker), even when fed the OSSC single-field deinterlaced 480p output (a few TvOne machines have selectable bob deinterlacing, but not the one I've got).

I have recently acquired an iScan HD+, which, beside having very low latency, handles 480i deinterlacing much better, and only exhibits a slight, bearable amount of flicker when dealing with the OSSC bob deinterlaced 480p output. I found that 4:2:2 subsampling is a non-issue for downscaling. The only issue I have with the iScan is that I can't quite get a perfect picture on the vertical axis. There would be an ever so slight scanline misalignament in the game I use for testing, both when outputting in 480p and 480i (the game has selectable resolution). It is very subtle, but still falls short of the picture linked above obtained with the other scaler (with 480p input only). Fiddling with the vertical size/positioning can provide a perfect result in the offended area, but break another area above and/or below. Here's a few images with explanatory labels:

http://image.ibb.co/dcCfUc/480i_to_240p.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/iibkvH/480p_to_240p.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/gdgJFH/480p_to_240p_Size_Tweak.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/dOCsaH/480p_to_240p_DT_V.jpg (untweaked 240p on another monitor - DT-V17 - same problem)

( I am 99% I have labelled the pictures correctly, but I've been at it for a couple of hours now, testing out the two scalers with the two original resolutions on two monitors with and without the OSSC in between, tweaking left and right, taking dozens of pictures, dealing with sync loss and monitors screaming pain, and I'm starting to do the same :lol: )

Here's a short video with me tweaking (480p original res, direct input into the iScan no OSSC in-between), which shows that I can get one thing right, only to break another: https://vimeo.com/260257300

Now I might well live with this, it's not too much trouble, but was curious if anyone here was still using an iScan for downscaling and run into this little alignement issue?
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orange808
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by orange808 »

I struggled as well. I gave up on the HD+ and permanently installed the Corio2 for 240p.

My trouble with iScan HD+ is that I can't get a standard 240p signal with properly aligned scanlines. I can use the settings in this thread with a monitor and it looks nice enough, but that's not *really* 240p. 240p should display on virtually any consumer CRT.

When we start cranking things up to 283 total lines, it goes too far out of spec for both the consumer sets I have on hand.
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Xer Xian
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Xer Xian »

Hmm so you share the same experience. I think I was using 265 or 266 total lines there, so not quite the standard 262/263, but still active lines were strictly 240. Why would it give an imperfect result I don't quite understand.
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