Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Xer Xian wrote:Hmm so you share the same experience. I think I was using 265 or 266 total lines there, so not quite the standard 262/263, but still active lines were strictly 240. Why would it give an imperfect result I don't quite understand.
hmmm, I remember having the scanline misalignment issue but only on some 480i material. I never really had much trouble with 480p or 720p (1080i also worked a bit better then 480i). as long as the math is right you should be good to go. are you using the calculators? or advanced timing on the ossc? (is the dvdo unit on the latest firmware?)

the main reason I ventured into downscaling was to achieve RGB video quality but have access to composite style transparency (Dithering shader) effects (with minimal input lag) on a high end crt. (pics of my first experiment below). most of my researcher with the HD+ has been on pause as i've been working on the OSSC with my free time. (but I do want to go back at some point).

I Imagine the Mimo Genius II is still the king of downscaling boxes (but last time I checked it was still around $400). another option is to use a video input card along with somthing like "recentral 4" or "PtBi" and a compatible nvidia or amd card with analogue output (my gtx 560ti does a fine job) so you can downscale (in real time) and then output RGBs or Component (YUV) 240p to a CRT display. (my first tests have been very promising)

Code: Select all

HD+ and PVM20L5 [custom Mdap+Tdap paten]
colors are a little off as each picture was taken with a different white balance :oops: as you can see the light source and Electra's nylons have transparent blending in the second image.

Game: Streets of Rage 2

Video chain: American Sega CDX, Coaxial RGB Scart -> RGBS -> PVM20L5 (CRT monitor)
Image

Video chain: 750ti, DVI -> HD+ -> VGA -> RGB203 rxi vtg -> RGBS -> PVM20L5 (CRT monitor)
Image
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Xer Xian
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Xer Xian »

Hey Blair, thanks for chiming in, and also for sharing your findings on getting 240p from conventional scalers! Those shots are interesting, I didn't know you could get transparency effects back via emulation/shaders. Unfortunately my reason for downscaling is a bit more urgent - the monitor I've destined for tate is 15kHz only, and many shooters don't have a 240p option. I could just use a vga monitor (of which I have several) for tate, but I'd like to try getting authentic low-res visuals for my primary set-up.

I'm now quite sure there's nothing left for me to tweak with the iScan HD+ to get a perfect 240p result. Changing timings other than the active lines does not impact on the visuals, but only on the image position. All in all, the iScan provides a solid 240p picture, but it's not as good as native 240p - or indeed, as what you can get from a TvOne scaler.

Again, I'm nitpicking here :) It really is a minor flaw, which only affects a small portion of the whole screen anyway. It's probably due to the scaling algorithm used. The iScan also has the very low latency on its side, and that can't be written off.

Image

I mean, I can see a few flaws on this picture (480p to 240p with the iScan), but that doesn't mean it's a bad result.
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Fudoh
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

The weird thing is that I see the vertical bleeding in your pics, but I don't see it Blair's, here for example: viewtopic.php?p=1106776#p1106776. Also compare his iScan menu shot on the opening post to your a few days ago.
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Xer Xian
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Xer Xian »

Yeah, but what is even more weird, is that the bleeding is not consistent across the whole image, but it's only concentrated on a limited area. I can change the affected area by vertically shifting the picture one notch (on the Pan setting, which sometimes is stuck at 0, which forces me to zoom instead), but I can't get rid of it completely.
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Xer Xian wrote:Hey Blair, thanks for chiming in, and also for sharing your findings on getting 240p from conventional scalers! Those shots are interesting, I didn't know you could get transparency effects back via emulation/shaders.
you're welcome. always happy when somebody gets some use out of the stuff I mess around with. (I was very surprised that nobody had ever tried using video processors to downscale before my initial experiment)
Xer Xian wrote:Those shots are interesting, I didn't know you could get transparency effects back via emulation/shaders.
yeah that's something I'm still very interested in achieving on a reliable level. Technically it's also something that should be possible on real hardware without the use of emulation. (it was on the to do list for the OSSC, but there doesn't seem to be enough memory to implement right now on the current 1.6 hardware)
Spoiler
Image
Xer Xian wrote:Unfortunately my reason for downscaling is a bit more urgent - the monitor I've destined for tate is 15kHz only, and many shooters don't have a 240p option. I could just use a vga monitor (of which I have several) for tate, but I'd like to try getting authentic low-res visuals for my primary set-up.


I know that feel. (what sizes is your tate display?)
Xer Xian wrote:I'm now quite sure there's nothing left for me to tweak with the iScan HD+ to get a perfect 240p result. Changing timings other than the active lines does not impact on the visuals, but only on the image position. All in all, the iScan provides a solid 240p picture, but it's not as good as native 240p - or indeed, as what you can get from a TvOne scaler.


there's always the old VGA monitor plus SLG combo that a lot of people enjoy, if done properly the results can be indistinguishable from a real 240p signal. (see these pictures from one of my older experiments with a vp50+RGB interface+SLG combo)

Spoiler
Games: Streets of Rage, Revenge of Shinobi
Console: American Sega CDX
Video chain: Coaxial RGB Scart -> VP50pro ->RGB203 rxi vtg ->SLG (100% intensity) -> Lacie Electron 22 blue iv (CRT monitor)

Image

Image

Image

Image
Xer Xian wrote:Again, I'm nitpicking here :) It really is a minor flaw, which only affects a small portion of the whole screen anyway. It's probably due to the scaling algorithm used. The iScan also has the very low latency on its side, and that can't be written off. I mean, I can see a few flaws on this picture (480p to 240p with the iScan), but that doesn't mean it's a bad result.
it does look really nice! I imagine that the flaw could be relatively unnoticeable depending on the game, especially in hectic shooters. it would be interesting to see how something like gun bird 1 or 2 looks/plays like your setup. (are your overscan/underscan settings at 0%?). for most slower pace games you could probably just use the Corio2. but for everything that requires intense reaction times the iscan with its low input lag is probably the best choice even with a CRT. (although from what I remember most 480i tate capable shooters on the ps2 could be patched to 240p or or forced into 480p/1080i) Phatnightmares also has a YouTube channel with some of his HD+ experiments (haven't had a chance to watch all of them myself, but he seems to be having good luck).
orange808 wrote:I struggled as well. I gave up on the HD+ and permanently installed the Corio2 for 240p.

My trouble with iScan HD+ is that I can't get a standard 240p signal with properly aligned scanlines. I can use the settings in this thread with a monitor and it looks nice enough, but that's not *really* 240p. 240p should display on virtually any consumer CRT.

When we start cranking things up to 283 total lines, it goes too far out of spec for both the consumer sets I have on hand.
have you tried using component video? (or svcoco's settings?) telemetry and svcoco had success with getting the HD+ work with consumer television sets. I used svcoco's timings with my old Sony KV-13FS100 13-Inch crt via component/HD+ and it worked fine. I didn't see any problems, I played a lot of soul caliber, Ikaruga and various Shmups on the Dreamcast in 240p over the weekends using that setup.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by orange808 »

Blair wrote: have you tried using component video? (or svcoco's settings?) telemetry and svcoco had success with getting the HD+ work with consumer television sets. I used svcoco's timings with my old Sony KV-13FS100 13-Inch crt via component/HD+ and it worked fine. I didn't see any problems, I played a lot of soul caliber, Ikaruga and various Shmups on the Dreamcast in 240p over the weekends using that setup.
Component is the signal I tried. No luck for me.

Maybe I'll try it again sometime. It's not on my priority list.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Namingway_PL »

Did anyone tried this on a VP30 with the ABT 102 card?

I've bought one recently and I would like to use this downscaling feature on my JVC DT-V1710CG monitor.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

Since the ABT102 only provides additional deinterlacing features, I don't think that it affects the VP30's ability to output anything under it's 31khz base clock.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Namingway_PL »

So the VP30 should work fine, am I right? Is it simmilar to the HD+?
If it does work, it would be a great addition to my setup :)

Sorry if my questions are stupid, but I have zero experience with video processors.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by orange808 »

Namingway_PL wrote:So the VP30 should work fine, am I right? Is it simmilar to the HD+?
If it does work, it would be a great addition to my setup :)

Sorry if my questions are stupid, but I have zero experience with video processors.
The VP30 isn't good for this.

Get an old Emotia, Genius II, or a Corio2 upscaler (not a Corio2 scan converter or downscaler).
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

As far as DVDOs go, I think only the HD and HD+ were confirmed to output 240p.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by HDgaming42 »

EDIT: Seems I somehow skipped over the two most recent post before this one. It appears you can't lower the dot clock low enough on a VP30. That's a shame.

What about the EDGE? Could you do it with custom EDID?
Spoiler
OK, I've secured a VP30 (no add-on card installed) and am willing to assist determining whether it can accomplish this task or not.

I was able to successfully output to a VGA monitor at 97.96Hz starting with the following:

H – shift 42
H – size 720
H – front 24
H – sync 84
H – back 42

V – shift 13
V – size 240
V – front 13
V – sync 1
V – back 22

but I can't seem to lock it to 60Hz, and therefore allow hooking it up to a PVM/consumer monitor. The second link in the OP now warns of a phishing scam (Malwarebytes), but I'm willing to test furter with some assistance.
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Blair
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Fudoh wrote:As far as DVDOs go, I think only the HD and HD+ were confirmed to output 240p.
I actually might have found a way around this. on the vp30+abit and the VP50/50pro only the "analogue" outputs may to be affected but this bug. so by using the digital HDMI out + a DAC (RGB or YPbPr) you could output 240p @ 60hz into a CRT that way. (i've been wrestling with some health issues so I haven't been able to test this out on multiple Units/Firmware). anybody with the equipment lying around might want to give it a try.

Also check out the GBS 8200 custom Firmware project. it's a great downscaler option for 480p sources.
HDgaming42 wrote:EDIT: Seems I somehow skipped over the two most recent post before this one. It appears you can't lower the dot clock low enough on a VP30. That's a shame.
VP30 (without abit card) was confirmed working fine in 240p by two other users
HDgaming42 wrote: What about the EDGE? Could you do it with custom EDID?
The EDGE, Green and Duo models don't have custom resolution settings. (as far as I know)
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by HDgaming42 »

Blair wrote:I actually might have found a way around this. on the vp30+abit and the VP50/50pro only the "analogue" outputs may to be affected but this bug. so by using the digital HDMI out + a DAC (RGB or YPbPr) you could output 240p @ 60hz into a CRT that way. (i've been wrestling with some health issues so I haven't been able to test this out on multiple Units/Firmware). anybody with the equipment lying around might want to give it a try.


Do you have the numbers you used for a successful HDMI 240p60 out?

This sounds like something I'd be willing to try. Mind you, I bought the VP30 with the intension of converting HDMI/RGBS to component for my consumer CRTs. I have a Tendak HDMI to VGA somewhere...but that still doesn't get me to component...
Blair wrote:The EDGE, Green and Duo models don't have custom resolution settings. (as far as I know)
Sorry--I meant creating a custom EDID with an external solution like Dr. HDMI to spoof what you want it to output.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by orange808 »

HDgaming42 wrote: Sorry--I meant creating a custom EDID with an external solution like Dr. HDMI to spoof what you want it to output.
EDID doesn't really work that way. The new Extrons use an EDID to define custom signals, but that was a design choice--not a universal standard you would find on other hardware.

+1 on the signal settings to get 240p from other DVDOs besides the HD and HD+. I never got it to work on other DVDOs.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by HDgaming42 »

orange808 wrote:
HDgaming42 wrote: Sorry--I meant creating a custom EDID with an external solution like Dr. HDMI to spoof what you want it to output.
EDID doesn't really work that way. The new Extrons use an EDID to define custom signals, but that was a design choice--not a universal standard you would find on other hardware.

+1 on the signal settings to get 240p from other DVDOs besides the HD and HD+. I never got it to work on other DVDOs.
Yeah, so no matter what combination of settings I use I can't seem to push below (VP30 on firmware 1.14)

Code: Select all

H 26.47k
V 100.3Hz
And this is using a custom resolution from the OP out via HDMI into a Tendak HDMI to VGA converter that feeds an extron RXi 203. If I were a smarter man (or less lazy) I would have wired it up like this in the first place instead of likely killing an 8" PVM (it was on death's door--but I think this was the straw that broke the camel's back) in the process.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

HDgaming42 wrote: Do you have the numbers you used for a successful HDMI 240p60 out?
it's been over a year I think since I tested out that idea. (almost) all my equipment is packed up right now, but from what I remember I used the calculators to get a good "standard" 240p type signal. I tested those settings with my nvidia card using the advanced timing settings (on windows 7) outputting the HDMI to both RGBHV and Component (I have a dac that does both). then recreated those settings on a VP50 (non pro) and with a bit a futzing with the settings I was able to get 240p60 (into an OSSC 1.5). outside of the built-in test patterns on the vp50 I didn't do much. but the OSSC recognized it as 244p.
HDgaming42 wrote:This sounds like something I'd be willing to try. Mind you, I bought the VP30 with the intension of converting HDMI/RGBS to component for my consumer CRTs. I have a Tendak HDMI to VGA somewhere...but that still doesn't get me to component....
Mike Chi has a video on his youtube showing off a cheap but good HDMI to component dac that also works with the HDMI 240p output of the raspberry pi
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by HDgaming42 »

Can someone double-check my work? I kept increasing the Horizontal resolution until the calculator gave me a refresh rate close to 60Hz.

Image


Then I enter the modeline into the other webpage and it gives me this:

Image

I transfer all of that into the VP30 User profile, including the negative sync. My HDMI out --> Tendak --> Rxi 203 now reads:

Code: Select all

H 25.31k
V 39.7Hz
Kind of lost why the calculator doesn't work as expected. I suspect I've messed something up in step 1 or 2.

Help?
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

I don't recall any attempts involving a VP30, 50, 50Pro or Edge to actually have been successful. If anybody can find me a posting or quote where the 240p60 output from a VP30 was actually useable, by all means - please post a direct link.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

Fudoh wrote:If anybody can find me a posting or quote where the 240p60 output from a VP30 was actually useable, by all means - please post a direct link.
telemetry was able to get 240p via HDMI out of his VP30 (without abit card)

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53807&p=1176297&hil ... .#p1176297

*edit*
looking closer it seems his TV didn't like the refresh rate? (sorry I missed that part) not sure if thats just a vizeo bug or not. my samsung lcd tv takes 240p over HDMI just fine (apart from crazy ringing)
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by HDgaming42 »

I think he was running HDMI into an LCD.

I'm trying to go either analog, or digital to analog into a CRT. And as my dead 8"PVM can attest--that seems to be a whole different ballgame.

So we're left with the HD and HD+? What about the iScan Ultra line?

I have a CRT calibration I'd like to iron out with a 3D LUT, but that requires me passing through HDMI-land at 720p and then back down to 240p again for display on the CRT. I figure if I can get a DVDO unit that does this for cheap I can avoid the recent price-gouging on TVOne units.

No one found any errors in my modeline generation? Can the OP be updated to reflect the VP30 and 50/50 pro as tested and incompatible?
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

What CRT are you trying to use? and for your look up table to be accurate wouldn't you need full 4:4:4 Chroma processing? (the dvdo's convert all output to 4:2:2)
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by HDgaming42 »

Blair wrote:What CRT are you trying to use? and for your look up table to be accurate wouldn't you need full 4:4:4 Chroma processing? (the dvdo's convert all output to 4:2:2)
Well, I pipe the signal into a lot of them via an extron DA. The LUT box I use has 6 memories (eeColor) so my plan is to just set up a preset per screen)

PVM-14L5
PVM-20M4U
Sony 32FV310
JVC AV-F475
and I'm hunting Toshiba AF series as well as Panasonic Gaoo/Tau.

So signal path is RGBS out of consoles into OSSC, into eeColor, into (something that downscales to 240p), into DA out to screens. The beauty is that if I run my test signals directly into the eeColor and follow the same chain, then the calibration will factor in the lower chroma sampling. It's not ideal, but it will (hopefully) be accounted for.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Blair »

very interesting, (did you try my DVDO timings for the 20L5?) you might want to ask rama in his thread about the GBS-8200 if his custom firmware could accommodate your needs. GBS-8200 boards are very cheep still and the mods required to setup the new firmware for downscaling don't seem very hard.

I had been looking for a VP30 of my own to test for troubleshooting but health difficulties have kept me out of this hobby for a while.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

looking closer it seems his TV didn't like the refresh rate? (sorry I missed that part) not sure if thats just a vizeo bug or not. my samsung lcd tv takes 240p over HDMI just fine (apart from crazy ringing)
I'm pretty sure that this wasn't caused by his TV, but by the DVDO's inability to output to requested scan rate / refresh rate combo in the first place.

GBS8200 with the GBSControl and a few mods seem - at the moment - to be the very best method to convert 480p to 240p. Haven't tried it myself though, the the concept is solid and the screenshots/videos look fantastic.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by HDgaming42 »

Blair wrote:very interesting, (did you try my DVDO timings for the 20L5?)
I did, thank-you. They were the first I tried.
Blair wrote:I had been looking for a VP30 of my own to test for troubleshooting but health difficulties have kept me out of this hobby for a while.
Sorry to hear that.
Fudoh wrote:GBS8200 with the GBSControl and a few mods seem - at the moment - to be the very best method to convert 480p to 240p. Haven't tried it myself though, the the concept is solid and the screenshots/videos look fantastic.
Looks promising, but they lost me with the size of soldering required. I also need to go from a minimum of 720p down to 240p, so this doesn't seem to be a solution for me...
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by strayan »

I’ve tried to use a DVDO VP50Pro to generate scanlines in the past on a 31kHz PC CRT for an n64 with ultrahdmi mod outputting 640x480 but I’ve never been able to get it quite right.
Edit: if anyone else has some settings that work at 240p120 please share!
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by tongshadow »

Can someone remind me whether the VP30 is capable of outputting analog 480i from an HDMI source?
Trying to find the best way to downscale HDMI sources to component 480i.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by Fudoh »

No, the VP30 can't output in 15khz.

You get very nice 480i from any Extron VSC unit which you can feed using the cheapest HDMI to VGA dongle you can find.
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Re: Down conversion to 240p using DVDO machines

Post by tongshadow »

This is gonna be tough, Extron units arent very popular where I live. I thought 480i would be possible since 240p output is doable.
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