Early-mid 2000's Sony Trinitron Wega SDTV Flat Tubes...

[vol.2]

Well, as some of you know from my previous posts, I claimed that my original SNES's SVideo output was superior to its RGB output. I experienced this the first time I compared the two (RGB transcoded to component) on my old 36" JVC SDCRT. The whites seemed to bleed badly in RGB, and seemed fine in SVideo-- RGB also seemed overall a bit blurrier. The issues also were the same on my plasma display. This led me to purchase and mod a SNES mini, which looks fabulous in RGB.

So anyways, the other day when I was taking photos of my new Trinitron Wega, I compared the two systems to each other. I was able to compare SNES 1 SVideo and RGB to SNES 2 RGB (I didnt mod the mini for Svideo).

The results are quite interesting. Though the SNES 1 RGB looks better on the Wega than it did on the JVC and the plasma, the white bleed and general blur is still visible to the discerning eye-- even vs. Svideo.

Below are some comparison shots, labeled with the system type and video connection. Note the white bleed on the SNES 1 RGB vs the lack of bleed on the S-Video image. Strange isnt it?

Full res album at following link: http://imgur.com/a/ROeeK

So, I'm looking at the close up of the Menu in Prince of Persia, and it doesn't look better in s video to me. I can see the shift you were mentioning, it's clearly there, but the s video is bloomed out and the scan lines are bleeding together vertically. You can't see the blank spaces clearly like you can with the RGB. Unless it just looks way different in person. An I missing something?

Edit: I do realize that you have 2 different systems represented.

[Josh128]

Well, as some of you know from my previous posts, I claimed that my original SNES's SVideo output was superior to its RGB output. I experienced this the first time I compared the two (RGB transcoded to component) on my old 36" JVC SDCRT. The whites seemed to bleed badly in RGB, and seemed fine in SVideo-- RGB also seemed overall a bit blurrier. The issues also were the same on my plasma display. This led me to purchase and mod a SNES mini, which looks fabulous in RGB.

So anyways, the other day when I was taking photos of my new Trinitron Wega, I compared the two systems to each other. I was able to compare SNES 1 SVideo and RGB to SNES 2 RGB (I didnt mod the mini for Svideo).

The results are quite interesting. Though the SNES 1 RGB looks better on the Wega than it did on the JVC and the plasma, the white bleed and general blur is still visible to the discerning eye-- even vs. Svideo.

Below are some comparison shots, labeled with the system type and video connection. Note the white bleed on the SNES 1 RGB vs the lack of bleed on the S-Video image. Strange isnt it?

Full res album at following link: http://imgur.com/a/ROeeK

So, I'm looking at the close up of the Menu in Prince of Persia, and it doesn't look better in s video to me. I can see the shift you were mentioning, it's clearly there, but the s video is bloomed out and the scan lines are bleeding together vertically. You can't see the blank spaces clearly like you can with the RGB. Unless it just looks way different in person. An I missing something?

Edit: I do realize that you have 2 different systems represented.

Theres definitely a difference. Look at the pics closely-- the white and orange right bleed is far more pronounced in the RGB shot, its even more visible in person. It gives the whole screen a "smeared" look that is absent from the S-Video. The entire image looks sharper in person. Its very obvious, which is why I pointed it out in the first place a couple years ago. On my 36" JVC, the difference was even more striking. RGB as is from the original SNES is basically broken IMO, the bleed just looks bad in person, and cant be (AFAIK) adjusted out.

[vol.2]

Okay. I see the smear. I guess I just have to image it's more distracting in person. However, I have read that SNES had varying degrees of quality. There were at least 3 revisions before the 1 chip. It would be interesting to know if the results were different for each of them.

[FinalBaton]

Josh, we can't rule out the smearing being introduced by your transcoder though. The CSY-2100 doesn't give perfect results, nor do the clones. Fudoh said that the Kramer FC-14 was substantially better than the CSY-2100.

[Josh128]

Final, the SNES 2 and SNES 1 RGB shots were done with the exact same transcoder on same TV! That should rule it out as the SNES 2 is pretty much perfect.

[FinalBaton]

Oops! didn't see that. My bad.

It would be nice if we could do some cross-examinatiob : maybe someone with the same SNES revision as your 1 could test S-video and RGB, so we could determine if the whole revision is at fault, or just your unit.

[Josh128]

That would be nice to know. I will say the pre-mod screenshots of the Japanese resistor mod on the N64 blur-fixing thread looked just like what I was seeing (in RGB) on my SNES 1, that is why I posted about all this...

[Josh128]

Did a quick test with SNES 1 and the F4500. RGB though CSY2100 clone, SVideo through GefenTV Composite/SVideo to HDMI.

I did not doctor these shots, if you zoom in on the links provided below each picture, you can see the RGB pixels, proof the pictures, although not taken from a tripod, are similarly focused. From this test, the SVideo looks tack sharp in comparison, though I can discern a tiny bit of white bleed. The RGB looks like someone smeared vaseline on the panel, HUGE white bleed and color bleed in general.

I dont know what else to say, but the white bleed and indeed overall IQ is definitely superior in my consoles SVideo signal.


Full Size: http://i.imgur.com/P2V2rId.jpg


Full Size: http://i.imgur.com/D4owXm3.jpg

[FBX]

Glad to see you are not experiencing this issue with the mini. I'm definitely intrigued about trying this test on the Framemeister with 50x zoom-in. My S-video cable will arrive next week and I'll test all 3 of my SNES units with it.

[vol.2]

The white text in the RGB shot is pink. And smeared. Very smeared. Yeah. I have a later SNES 1, it's a 1993 revision. I don't have frame capture capability, but I'll get an RGB cable and see if I can get some shots of mine. I'll have to order the cable though, so not immediately.

[Josh128]

The white text in the RGB shot is pink. And smeared. Very smeared. Yeah. I have a later SNES 1, it's a 1993 revision. I don't have frame capture capability, but I'll get an RGB cable and see if I can get some shots of mine. I'll have to order the cable though, so not immediately.

Youre right, it does appear somewhat pink-- and perhaps the reason for that is because the blue component of the white is shifted to the right of each white object, thus giving the white a pink look. The smeared look I think is due to some degree of bleed in other colors as well. I guess the biggest mystery is why this happens to such a degree in the RGB out but a much lesser degree in the S-Video.

As I said before, its one of the first North American SNES consoles-- they were released in August of 1991, and I believe my awesome, incredible mom (who passed away earlier this year ) bought it for me sometime in September or October that same year. I dont know if it has more to do with the hardware version or just the age of the individual console itself. FWIW, even the composite out still looks good (for composite anyway).

Looking forward to your's pics and FBX's Framemeister capture comparisons.

[orange808]

XRGB-2 > DVDO50pro > Vizio D 4k 2016

edit: Using csync SCART from retro console accessories on ebay.

RGB

Spoiler

Svideo

Spoiler

NTSC US SNES - purchased on launch day 1991

Spoiler

Lion King Debug

Spoiler

I can't reproduce this. I see a hint of smearing, but it's very small.

[FBX]

XRGB-2 > DVDO50pro > Vizio D 4k 2016

I can't reproduce this. I see a hint of smearing, but it's very small.

It's definitely there though compared to S-Video. I'm very curious as to whats causing the difference.

[orange808]

XRGB-2 > DVDO50pro > Vizio D 4k 2016

I can't reproduce this. I see a hint of smearing, but it's very small.

It's definitely there though compared to S-Video. I'm very curious as to whats causing the difference.

Could be. Then again, we are zooming in on a close up 1920x1080 photo.

In person, I can't see it.

For reference, I am using a csync cable from retro console accessories on ebay. I'll edit my post for clarification.

I am curious how the Framemeister handles it.

[orange808]

SCART > OSSC linex3 > Vizio D 4k 2016

So pretty. So, so, so pretty.

Anyway...

It's there, but you can't see it with the naked eye.

After all, we are zooming way in on a close up high res photo.

Spoiler

[Josh128]

If thats a day one SNES you are showing on the 4K screen, for some unknown reason its image quality is just as good as a 1 CHIP or SNES mini , I mean the 4K image you are putting out here is immaculate.

None of these images show the degree of bleeding shown in the screenshots of the Japanese resistor modification (which is essentially the same as the bleeding on my original SNES.)

So the last image on the 4K screen is the same console as the first RGB one on the 1080p screen?

[orange808]

If thats a day one SNES you are showing on the 4K screen, for some unknown reason its image quality is just as good as a 1 CHIP or SNES mini , I mean the 4K image you are putting out here is immaculate.

None of these images show the degree of bleeding shown in the screenshots of the Japanese resistor modification (which is essentially the same as the bleeding on my original SNES.)

So the last image on the 4K screen is the same console as the first RGB one on the 1080p screen?

Yes. I only have the one SNES. All the images are on my Vizio 2016 D Series 4K, but the output has always been pretty. I wish I could tell you it has low milage, but it's probably been used more than any other console I own.

The difference is between the XRGB-2/DVDO combo and using the OSSC directly. The XRGB-2 is old, but I always get better output from it on a CRT. Directly connecting it to the Vizio or Sony LCD panels always gives me jail bars.

Spoiler

It's awfully yellow these days, but it's mine.

[Michael Ikonomidis]

One thing worth noting: These screens all seem to have the "red push" setting. There's usually a simple way to disable it on sets. The red push can make reds bleed.

How do you disable it?
I seem to have this issue on my set. The reds are too intense and bleed around the edges a bit.

[Michael Ikonomidis]

If thats a day one SNES you are showing on the 4K screen, for some unknown reason its image quality is just as good as a 1 CHIP or SNES mini , I mean the 4K image you are putting out here is immaculate.

None of these images show the degree of bleeding shown in the screenshots of the Japanese resistor modification (which is essentially the same as the bleeding on my original SNES.)

So the last image on the 4K screen is the same console as the first RGB one on the 1080p screen?

You can't always just assume that one model of a console will have better or worse video than another. While that may be true in general, there's always the possibility that a particular console will have worn out or damaged parts that cause the output to look better or worse.

If you took 100 random 1-Chip SNES and compared them side by side, you would almost certainly see significant differences between them.

[Michael Ikonomidis]

Did a quick test with SNES 1 and the F4500. RGB though CSY2100 clone, SVideo through GefenTV Composite/SVideo to HDMI.

I did not doctor these shots, if you zoom in on the links provided below each picture, you can see the RGB pixels, proof the pictures, although not taken from a tripod, are similarly focused. From this test, the SVideo looks tack sharp in comparison, though I can discern a tiny bit of white bleed. The RGB looks like someone smeared vaseline on the panel, HUGE white bleed and color bleed in general.

I dont know what else to say, but the white bleed and indeed overall IQ is definitely superior in my consoles SVideo signal.

I would try a different SNES, different RGB cable, a different transcoder than CSY2100 clone, to see where the problem lies. I would bet money it's the transcoder.

Do you have a RGB monitor, or a Framemeister? Do you see this White bleed on those when feeding in RGB?

[Josh128]

Did a quick test with SNES 1 and the F4500. RGB though CSY2100 clone, SVideo through GefenTV Composite/SVideo to HDMI.

I did not doctor these shots, if you zoom in on the links provided below each picture, you can see the RGB pixels, proof the pictures, although not taken from a tripod, are similarly focused. From this test, the SVideo looks tack sharp in comparison, though I can discern a tiny bit of white bleed. The RGB looks like someone smeared vaseline on the panel, HUGE white bleed and color bleed in general.

I dont know what else to say, but the white bleed and indeed overall IQ is definitely superior in my consoles SVideo signal.

I would try a different SNES, different RGB cable, a different transcoder than CSY2100 clone, to see where the problem lies. I would bet money it's the transcoder.

Do you have a RGB monitor, or a Framemeister? Do you see this White bleed on those when feeding in RGB?

Michael, not sure if you have been following the whole story, but its not the transcoder, not the display. I use the same transcoder on my NES, Genesis, N64, and SNES mini. Its only the original SNES that does it. It really doesnt follow that the transcoder would be fine for all other consoles but broken for my original SNES. I actually have two CSY2100 clones and an Audio Authority VGA to component converter. I havent tried the AA but I have tried both CSY 2100s with same result. If I had a SCART to VGA adapter I could try the AA just for giggles.

[FBX]

After all your examples, I'm convinced it definitely is the SNES that's doing it. We just need to find out if it's a universal issue with that particular revision, or if it's localized to your console. Still waiting on my S-Video cables to come in the mail ><

[Michael Ikonomidis]

Did a quick test with SNES 1 and the F4500. RGB though CSY2100 clone, SVideo through GefenTV Composite/SVideo to HDMI.

I did not doctor these shots, if you zoom in on the links provided below each picture, you can see the RGB pixels, proof the pictures, although not taken from a tripod, are similarly focused. From this test, the SVideo looks tack sharp in comparison, though I can discern a tiny bit of white bleed. The RGB looks like someone smeared vaseline on the panel, HUGE white bleed and color bleed in general.

I dont know what else to say, but the white bleed and indeed overall IQ is definitely superior in my consoles SVideo signal.

I would try a different SNES, different RGB cable, a different transcoder than CSY2100 clone, to see where the problem lies. I would bet money it's the transcoder.

Do you have a RGB monitor, or a Framemeister? Do you see this White bleed on those when feeding in RGB?

Michael, not sure if you have been following the whole story, but its not the transcoder, not the display. I use the same transcoder on my NES, Genesis, N64, and SNES mini. Its only the original SNES that does it. It really doesnt follow that the transcoder would be fine for all other consoles but broken for my original SNES. I actually have two CSY2100 clones and an Audio Authority VGA to component converter. I havent tried the AA but I have tried both CSY 2100s with same result. If I had a SCART to VGA adapter I could try the AA just for giggles.

Interesting... but you never know with electronics, there could be some reason the problem only manifests itself through the transcoder when using your SNES (though I agree probably not likely).

Perhaps you could pick up a cheap SNES off craigslist or something, just to see if same issue occurs. And you have tried a different RGB cable?

[FBX]

Got the cables in and the ebay seller sent me just plain composite cables even though the auction listed them as S-Video. I've filed a complaint and will allow them to respond with sending the right cables, or I will have ebay issue a refund.

Edit: Ordered an S-Video cable off Amazon which will arrive Thursday while I deal with the refund process on ebay. Not going to wait another two weeks on account of the seller being a dumbass.

[Josh128]

Cool. You do understand my unit is an early model, non 1-Chip console, correct?

[FBX]

Cool. You do understand my unit is an early model, non 1-Chip console, correct?

Right, I've got an older SNES non 1chip to test with, and if need be, I'll snag the first revision as well.

[Greg2600]

Josh, do light guns work on this TV?

[Hoagtech]

XRGB-2 > DVDO50pro > Vizio D 4k 2016

edit: Using csync SCART from retro console accessories on ebay.

RGB

Spoiler

Svideo

Spoiler

NTSC US SNES - purchased on launch day 1991

Spoiler

Lion King Debug

Spoiler

I can't reproduce this. I see a hint of smearing, but it's very small.

Hey Orange I cant see your photos under your spoilers?

[orange808]

XRGB-2 > DVDO50pro > Vizio D 4k 2016

edit: Using csync SCART from retro console accessories on ebay.

RGB

Spoiler

Svideo

Spoiler

NTSC US SNES - purchased on launch day 1991

Spoiler

Lion King Debug

Spoiler

I can't reproduce this. I see a hint of smearing, but it's very small.

Hey Orange I cant see your photos under your spoilers?

Yep. Looks like imgsafe finally went down for good.

[Lawfer]

So, it turns out the set was a 27"(actually a pleasant surprise, the 32" would have meant calling in reinforcements to unload it)

Yeah CRTs weights a ton.