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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:16 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 424
I think he's aware, but he's pretty busy with other work at the moment. In my opinion, FBX's "NTSC Hardware" palette absolutely blows away FCEUX. Some people have reported that on their LCD screens his "PVM Style D93" is better, but it might be dependent on the display. "NTSC Hardware" is the one that looks perfect to me on my Sony BVM and Panasonic plasma.

FBX has a few others, as well as RGBSource. Whenever Kevin has time, it would be awesome to put all of them as an option, alongside what's already there. I think there should be room for them all.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:32 pm 


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evil_ash_xero wrote:
Still, when the colors are this off with FCEUX....I wonder what kind of guarantee the colors will be "right" with the next palettes? I really like FCEUX...on average.
But when red is purple...there's some kind of issue going on.


I documented the discrepancy between FCEUX and "FCEUX's" a while back:
http://rgbsource.blogspot.com/2016/10/a ... sited.html

I made the request to retroUSB to add the FCEUX palette added to the AVS and he obliged. On the AVS the FCEUX output gives the exact colors you'd expect to see from the PC emulator.

evil_ash_xero wrote:
I wonder if Kevtris knows about it?


I've chatted with Kevtris about it and the answer he provided was along the lines of "it was the FCEUX palette I had". Kev also mentioned that his rendering pipeline transforms RGB values to YUV as his HQX implementation requires colors in YUV. The same applies to the NT mini - even if you custom load FCEUX.PAL, it won't output 100% identical pixel values compared to FCEUX.PAL on the respective PC emulator, but it will certainly look different than the in-box FCEUX's palette!

retrorgb wrote:
... as well as RGBSource. Whenever Kevin has time, it would be awesome to put all of them as an option, alongside what's already there. I think there should be room for them all.


I've reached out to him to request that NESCAP and HYBRID be added to the Hi-Def NES. It sounds like he's moonlighting a new contract now that he's finished JB FW updates for the Nt mini and is consuming all of his free time. My guess is that the contract is to make the Zimba 3K under the Analogue brand!
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Hi-Def NES firmware with RGBSource Color Palettes
New NESRGB Firmware Featuring RGBSource Color Palettes
NES "Hybrid" Palette - Striking a Balance Between Composite and RGB
Creating an "accurate" NES NTSC Color Palette


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:28 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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the Analog NT mini at this point is pretty much the zimba 3K.

Wondering why he cant take the code for custom palette support from nt mini and add it to hi def nes. I'm sure he's making good $$ off hidef nes sales; strange how support for it vanished.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:15 pm 


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IIRC the FPGA was completely full on the HDN, and it takes more space to include code to support loading and changing palettes than it does to just have a few embedded. Also he's apparently super busy on a new paid contract, as even the NT Mini work has been put on hold.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:28 pm 


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He could also allow us to edit firmware files and add pallettes into new firmware updates. That wouldn't require adding logic to handle pallete files or additional gui.

Assuming HiDefNES is fully reprogrammable with firmware updates, all we need is a little information and the palletes stored with no obfuscation.

So, it's not impossible, it wouldn't take too much space, and it wouldn't have to be implemented by the gui.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:20 am 


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This is all pretty interesting.

I have been fiddling around with palettes in my emulator, and looking at the NESRGB's, and comparing them with the NES HDMI.

I've noticed that the "YUV" setting in emulators causes this "some reds look purple" thing. And with RGB settings, things tend to look a lot more red. Which is more accurate to the original palette?

I tried out those FBX palettes, and they tend to lean towards "YUV" a bit. So say, the title screen in "Hitler no Fukkatso" where the bird looks maroon or red in some, looks more magenta in this.

Honestly, FCEUX's does look a bit oversaturated with red. But still, it would be nice to get it looking something like it actually looks like on the NES HDMI, because it looks a completely opposite palette.
I tried out Beware's on my Nestopia, and it looks very similar to what it looks like on my NESHDMI.

Also, on the NESRGB, if you flip between the 3 palettes, the other ones lean purple as well. Especially when you flick the switch down (whatever palette that is). It looks a lot like Beware's.

Anyway, I hope we can get more added to the NESHDMI. Kevtris has an amazing product, so it would be nice to tweak it a touch to get some more color options.

And thanks to RGBSource for the RGB colors getting turned to YUV information. That really explains why the palette is so radically different.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:36 pm 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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Location: Hellhole
Finally, a new update available with more palettes options :mrgreen:

kevtris wrote:
Well here it is, after 14 months!

http://blog.kevtris.org/blogfiles/HiDef ... 20beta.nes

Changes:

* Audio DC level restoration to fix some monitors that'd be silent or have other weird audio volume issues.
* FDS channel redone to be hopefully more accurate.
* DPCM fixed to allow retriggering.
* Address bus filtering fixed so that graphical/palette glitches should be a thing of the past.
* PAL pixel capturing fixed.
* 4 new palettes added.
* Removed interpolation and associated menu. I needed the logic gates in the FPGA to fix the other things.

I tested 5 sets of PAL chips- 1 set always worked, but the other 4 had minor to very severe "speckling". These are all working perfectly now.
I tested 3 sets of "laser H rev" parts as found in the newest AV famicoms (I think) and they are all working perfect now as well.

This should fix all the problems people had I hope.

This update is a beta because I am not 100% sure I didn't break something else relating to DPCM, so if I did please let me know.

The four new palettes are:

Firebrand X NTSC
Firebrand X PVM D93
RGBSOURCE Hybrid
RGBSOURCE NESCAP

The original 4 palettes are still in there of course.

Hope that's enough because this thing is fulllllllll up. There is absolutely no room left anywhere. I have scavenged it all. btw,
the xray mode is "free" so it doesn't use any logic elements. It's the internal decisions being made about the HQX stuff. It's basically detecting edges.


http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php? ... 95#p194295


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:34 am 


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Anybody else getting uneven colomns from the HiDefNES?

No interpolation, 720p output, and hooked directly to display. Display has no aspect ratio settings in game mode.

This is the output HiDefNES is going to give you with no smoothing options.

Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image


It doesn't matter how much I change the settings, I never get even pixels without some interpolation. Happens in 480p, 720p, and 1080p and happens on LCD and CRT VGA monitors. Also happens when scan converting to 240p.

Anybody else seeing this? Interpolation wasn't superfluous.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:22 pm 


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You need to use an integer scale factor (Width = 400/500/600/700 etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:19 pm 


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yxkalle wrote:
You need to use an integer scale factor (Width = 400/500/600/700 etc.)


Ok.

Hey, one fast question: what happens to my aspect ratio when I start changing the horizontal stretch? :)
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:43 pm 


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It is impossible to have a 4:3 aspect ratio at any supported output resolution with integer scaling. You need to pick the integer horizontal stretch value that most closely results in a 4:3 image for your given vertical stretch value.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
It is impossible to have a 4:3 aspect ratio at any supported output resolution with integer scaling. You need to pick the integer horizontal stretch value that most closely results in a 4:3 image for your given vertical stretch value.


Did I say you could? Quote me. Quote it.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:15 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
It is impossible to have a 4:3 aspect ratio at any supported output resolution with integer scaling. You need to pick the integer horizontal stretch value that most closely results in a 4:3 image for your given vertical stretch value.


If you owned a HiDefNES, you would know that there is no vertical stretch/zoom option.

Can't have inaccurate information. ;)
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:25 pm 


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Quote:
Did I say you could? Quote me. Quote it.

your screenshots implied it. I don't have a HDMI modded NES or FC, but I got the Analogue Nt, which should behave the same, shouldn't it ?

You're saying that you get uneven horizontal scaling despite setting the horizontal scale slider to an integer value?


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:41 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Did I say you could? Quote me. Quote it.

your screenshots implied it. I don't have a HDMI modded NES or FC, but I got the Analogue Nt, which should behave the same, shouldn't it ?

You're saying that you get uneven horizontal scaling despite setting the horizontal scale slider to an integer value?


Nope. Messing up the aspect ratio isn't an option. That's not right.

I'm saying that when set to the correct aspect ratio, I need a little filtering to make it look right. Without the ability to perform this with the NES itself, the unit no longer serves much purpose. It has no audience.

What's the use case? Now, we have an HDMI kit (that implies plug and play) that relies on my video processor to fix the output. I can get more robust features and the same dependence on my video chain from an NES RGB mod.

I already know it doesn't look right. That's why I loved the interpolation option. Turning it to "06" on my displays is enough to hide the issue without sacrificing much sharpness.

I'm play SMB right now with 2.5 firmware, 4:3, and interpolation. There's all the sharpness you lose with a little filtering.
Spoiler: show
Image
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:56 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
It is impossible to have a 4:3 aspect ratio at any supported output resolution with integer scaling. You need to pick the integer horizontal stretch value that most closely results in a 4:3 image for your given vertical stretch value.


If you owned a HiDefNES, you would know that there is no vertical stretch/zoom option.

Can't have inaccurate information. ;)


http://retrorgb.com/images/Hi-DefNESmen ... Height.jpg

You were saying? The scaling for 720p is obviously different, since a 3.0x scale will match full-screen. As such, possible choices for vertical scale are 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, and 4.5.

I'm in agreement that interpolation was a more valuable option than the HQX scalers that were left in, but your combatitive attitude is hardly condusive to the discussion.


Last edited by Guspaz on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:00 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
It is impossible to have a 4:3 aspect ratio at any supported output resolution with integer scaling. You need to pick the integer horizontal stretch value that most closely results in a 4:3 image for your given vertical stretch value.


If you owned a HiDefNES, you would know that there is no vertical stretch/zoom option.

Can't have inaccurate information. ;)


http://retrorgb.com/images/Hi-DefNESmen ... Height.jpg

You were saying?


...that you hijacked the thread, answered a question I didn't ask, and posted a facile common knowledge answer that didn't fit the hardware.

A two choice menu restricted to the 1080p output (that lets you choose between overscan and a wrong aspect ratio) hardly qualifies as a proper vertical zoom option.

Let's be done. In a bad mood.

Bottom line: the HiDefNES needs that filter.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:09 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Can't have inaccurate information. ;)


You want to go there? Fine. Two incorrect statements by you so far

orange808 wrote:
It doesn't matter how much I change the settings, I never get even pixels without some interpolation.


This is incorrect. Using integer scaling factors you will get even pixels. The resulting aspect ratio isn't 4:3, but the pixels will be even.

orange808 wrote:
(that lets you choose between overscan and a wrong aspect ratio)


This is incorrect. 4.0x results in underscan, 4.5x results in full vertical height. Neither results in overscan, neither has anything to do with aspect ratio. The Hi-Def NES does not have sufficient memory to support scaling into overscan (such as a 5.0x scaling factor) like the NT Mini does.

orange808 wrote:
...that you hijacked the thread


This is neither your thread, nor your forums. You do not get to decide what on-topic discussion happens here.

orange808 wrote:
answered a question I didn't ask


If somebody answers a question that you didn't ask, it may have been because you worded the question poorly. In this case, it appears that it may have been because you were asking a snarky rhetorical question, which I interpreted as an honest request for assistance. My bad, rude rhetorical snark can be tricky.

orange808 wrote:
Bottom line: the HiDefNES needs that filter.


As you can see, I actually agree with this point, as I believe that the HQX scalers are less useful than interpolation, and should have been removed. If you'd been less combatitive, we might have come to this agreement sooner.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:40 pm 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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Uneven columns = uneven scanlines?
I really do not see any problem in the gif :oops:
And I agree, interpolation is a lot more useful than HQ4X


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:02 pm 


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Ripthorn wrote:
Uneven columns = uneven scanlines?
I really do not see any problem in the gif :oops:
And I agree, interpolation is a lot more useful than HQ4X


The pixels shouldn't get bigger and smaller as the screen scrolls. This makes the entire screen look like the Yoshi's Island end level score chalkboard animation. (Don't take that literally! That's snark! hint, hint..) Pixels shouldn't be dancing across the screen. It's not a Bit Trip Beat thing.

Rows are horizontal and columns are vertical. The HiDefNES restricts vertical adjustments to guarantee even scanlines. The horizontal adjustments are flexible enough, but you lose aspect ratio.

To be perfectly honest, it looks bad.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:14 pm 


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I posted a request over on nesdev asking if it would be possible to remove HQX so that interpolation could be re-added.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:35 pm 


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You could set it to 720p and 5x horizontal stretch (to make it full screen), then force your tvs ratio to 4:3.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:49 pm 


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yxkalle wrote:
You could set it to 720p and 5x horizontal stretch (to make it full screen), then force your tvs ratio to 4:3.


Very true.

I have multiple video processors that can fix it, but a viable HDMI kit really should be plug and play.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:54 am 



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Anyone know the difference between the fpga in the hidef nes vs the one found in the NT mini? It seems that the mini has many more features than hi def nes; features we've been asking for a long time and then some.

Only way Kevtris can do this is prob usig a much bogger fpga (more blocks). But how many more does it have??


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:08 am 



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hey guys, any advice for someone looking at one of these vs the good old NESRGB? I have a xrgb-mini and my original plan was to always go NESRGB but is it worth throwing more money at this instead?

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:16 am 


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If you are mainly planning to play on a modern display, then the hi-def nes kit is the way to go. Even if you own a framemeister already, you are getting everything as a digital signal with no frame buffer vs pushing the analog signal through a framemeister and picking up some minor lag.

I personally see a video quality difference when using the hi-def nes kit and a few people I know that have switched from the NESRGB to the hi-def nes kit also see a difference. With all the baked in features to me it's a no brainer, unless you are only going to play on a crt.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:56 pm 


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HiDefNES on the latest firmware cannot reproduce the true NES aspect ratio. NESRGB paired with the OSSC has no such issues. Additionally, the NES rgb kit allows for custom pallettes.

The HiDefNES is a compromise. Certainly not a "no brainer".
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:55 am 


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Well, they fixed the colors, but took out Interpolation.

Fuck. That was one of the only reasons I bought the damn thing. I mean, I already have an XRGB 3. But I didn't like how I couldn't CRT it up more than just scanlines.
Also, I get the "shaky pixels" without interpolation.

If they don't bring it back, I'll probably sell mine. I don't want Lego pixels. Guess I'll be going back to the NESRGB on CRT. For now, anyway.
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Last edited by evil_ash_xero on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:09 am 


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orange808 wrote:
HiDefNES on the latest firmware cannot reproduce the true NES aspect ratio. NESRGB paired with the OSSC has no such issues. Additionally, the NES rgb kit allows for custom pallettes.

The HiDefNES is a compromise. Certainly not a "no brainer".


They kind of fucked it up. The colors were the only thing I wanted fixed, and they took out Interpolation and added some other issues. Well, it says this is a "beta". I'm gonna give him my feedback. Hopefully he listens to users.

Anywhere you can download the older firmware?
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:20 am 


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I PM'd Kev on NESDev. Hopefully I get some kind of response. Hopefully it's a promising one.

This really kills my enthusiasm for this completely. I was bummed about the palettes, but this....gah...
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