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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:53 am 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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leonk wrote:
Ripthorn wrote:
Anyone know if possible install the hi def NES and replace the RF module with a AV mod (P3 conector)?


I assume you mean in top loader? It should be technically possible. But why would you? :)

Yep, top loader. Well, better then just leave the crappy RF module :mrgreen:

game-tech.us wrote:
Ripthorn wrote:
Anyone know if possible install the hi def NES and replace the RF module with a AV mod (P3 conector)?

Sure can, but you might see the jailbars again because you can't lift pin 21, you'll have to pull composite from the base pin of the old composite transistor.

Jailbars is not a big deal for me, unless it appears on HDMI output. I want composite video just to play lightgun games. There is too much noise on RF output, even with Nintendo's RF cable/power supply.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:38 pm 



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no jailbars on hdmi. The NES ppu is used as a slave to tell the hi def NES per pixel color values. It's the kit that creates all new digital video signal with no analog in the pipeline.

Pin21 is composite output. The kit needs it. The AV mod typically lifts it from the board and recreates the on board amplifier in a less noisy setting. Nothing special.

your options:

1) cut all traces out of pin 21 pad and connect AV mod here (hoping no jailbar noise is picked up. But you cant lift pin 21 out of interposer - kit needs it!)

2) do old style av mod where nothing is lifted/removed. Will see jailbars

3) Spend the $50 to buy another clean NES front loader for clean play on crt TV's! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:58 pm 



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leonk wrote:
no jailbars on hdmi. The NES ppu is used as a slave to tell the hi def NES per pixel color values. It's the kit that creates all new digital video signal with no analog in the pipeline.

Pin21 is composite output. The kit needs it. The AV mod typically lifts it from the board and recreates the on board amplifier in a less noisy setting. Nothing special.

your options:

1) cut all traces out of pin 21 pad and connect AV mod here (hoping no jailbar noise is picked up. But you cant lift pin 21 out of interposer - kit needs it!)

2) do old style av mod where nothing is lifted/removed. Will see jailbars

3) Spend the $50 to buy another clean NES front loader for clean play on crt TV's! ;)

Well... Looks like the old style mod is the best option for me :)
And no way, I not gonna buy a NES front loader with the crappy zif conector :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:22 pm 


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Ripthorn wrote:
leonk wrote:
no jailbars on hdmi. The NES ppu is used as a slave to tell the hi def NES per pixel color values. It's the kit that creates all new digital video signal with no analog in the pipeline.

Pin21 is composite output. The kit needs it. The AV mod typically lifts it from the board and recreates the on board amplifier in a less noisy setting. Nothing special.

your options:

1) cut all traces out of pin 21 pad and connect AV mod here (hoping no jailbar noise is picked up. But you cant lift pin 21 out of interposer - kit needs it!)

2) do old style av mod where nothing is lifted/removed. Will see jailbars

3) Spend the $50 to buy another clean NES front loader for clean play on crt TV's! ;)

Well... Looks like the old style mod is the best option for me :)
And no way, I not gonna buy a NES front loader with the crappy zif conector :lol:


https://www.arcadeworks.net/blw

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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:28 pm 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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orange808 wrote:
Ripthorn wrote:
leonk wrote:
no jailbars on hdmi. The NES ppu is used as a slave to tell the hi def NES per pixel color values. It's the kit that creates all new digital video signal with no analog in the pipeline.

Pin21 is composite output. The kit needs it. The AV mod typically lifts it from the board and recreates the on board amplifier in a less noisy setting. Nothing special.

your options:

1) cut all traces out of pin 21 pad and connect AV mod here (hoping no jailbar noise is picked up. But you cant lift pin 21 out of interposer - kit needs it!)

2) do old style av mod where nothing is lifted/removed. Will see jailbars

3) Spend the $50 to buy another clean NES front loader for clean play on crt TV's! ;)

Well... Looks like the old style mod is the best option for me :)
And no way, I not gonna buy a NES front loader with the crappy zif conector :lol:

I don't have any nostalgic feeling for the NES front loader (first NES brought on early 2000s) :P
So it's cheaper just do the AV mod :D
https://www.arcadeworks.net/blw

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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:43 pm 


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Has there been any plans to implement a 5X scale yet?
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:48 pm 


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5x scale is impossible, the FPGA doesn't have enough memory.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:12 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
5x scale is impossible, the FPGA doesn't have enough memory.


So the quick and dirty comparison of the 3 major offerings:

AVS: Digital and supports alternatives to the default emulator palettes (though not from user-side). Downside is no support for 1080p.

Hi-Def NES kit: Digital and supports 1080p. Downside is stuck with whatever palette the author decided on for 2.25 firmware "final", and no support for 5x scale.

NESRGB: Supports alternate palettes (though not from user-side), analogue nature allows for custom scaling when used with a Framemeister. Downside is will never be as perfectly sharp as digital.


The ultimate would be a digital mod that supports 1080p with 5x scale overscan options, custom palette loading, and all the menu features like masking and horizontal interpolation. NONE of these available solutions for the NES can currently do all that, and yet it should be reasonably possible to do so.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:31 pm 


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FBX wrote:
Hi-Def NES kit: Digital and supports 1080p. Downside is stuck with whatever palette the author decided on for 2.25 firmware "final", and no support for 5x scale.


Kev said 5x would be like a $40 hike in the BOM so huge hike in cost to customer. So not likely to happen any time soon, but yes it's possible and no Kev won't make it happen unless there's a LOT more than a handful of ppl wanting it.

Also, the kit does have more than one palette so you're not 'stuck with whatever' and Kev does plan to add at least 2 more palettes on the next firmware update. There's room for around 6 more, but no one was really able to suggest more than a couple so far (on the nesdev thread iirc).
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:15 pm 


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game-tech.us wrote:
FBX wrote:
Hi-Def NES kit: Digital and supports 1080p. Downside is stuck with whatever palette the author decided on for 2.25 firmware "final", and no support for 5x scale.


Kev said 5x would be like a $40 hike in the BOM so huge hike in cost to customer. So not likely to happen any time soon, but yes it's possible and no Kev won't make it happen unless there's a LOT more than a handful of ppl wanting it.

Also, the kit does have more than one palette so you're not 'stuck with whatever' and Kev does plan to add at least 2 more palettes on the next firmware update. There's room for around 6 more, but no one was really able to suggest more than a couple so far (on the nesdev thread iirc).


I think a lot of us would be willing to pay an additional $40 for the added ability, but I can understand why it was nixed.

On the palette end, the AVS guys very quickly responded to user requests for Unsaturated-V6 and YUV-V3 palettes and have already added them, but Hi-Def NES firmware hasn't been updated in a while, and the "Final" tag added to the last one released suggested the author wasn't currently active in supporting future firmware releases.

That all said, user-end palette swapping would be ideal, and none of the offerings have that feature. I think AVS would be the closest to making it possible, since they use the .NES format for updates. A palette could be easily added to that update system I imagine.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:21 pm 


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FBX wrote:
game-tech.us wrote:
FBX wrote:
Hi-Def NES kit: Digital and supports 1080p. Downside is stuck with whatever palette the author decided on for 2.25 firmware "final", and no support for 5x scale.


Kev said 5x would be like a $40 hike in the BOM so huge hike in cost to customer. So not likely to happen any time soon, but yes it's possible and no Kev won't make it happen unless there's a LOT more than a handful of ppl wanting it.

Also, the kit does have more than one palette so you're not 'stuck with whatever' and Kev does plan to add at least 2 more palettes on the next firmware update. There's room for around 6 more, but no one was really able to suggest more than a couple so far (on the nesdev thread iirc).


I think a lot of us would be willing to pay an additional $40 for the added ability, but I can understand why it was nixed.

On the palette end, the AVS guys very quickly responded to user requests for Unsaturated-V6 and YUV-V3 palettes and have already added them, but Hi-Def NES firmware hasn't been updated in a while, and the "Final" tag added to the last one released suggested the author wasn't currently active in supporting future firmware releases.

That all said, user-end palette swapping would be ideal, and none of the offerings have that feature. I think AVS would be the closest to making it possible, since they use the .NES format for updates. A palette could be easily added to that update system I imagine.


It would be much more than $40 for the upgrade, that's just the cost to upgrade the fpga, doesn't include Kev's time to rewrite the code to make it work etc.
Hi-def also uses .nes format for updates, but it's still too few ppl that want to make their own palette to make it worth while for kev to make it happen.
The 2 palettes you mentioned are the 2 that will be added.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:53 pm 


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If the price is going up, the hardware needs a refresh, and the code needs a rewrite, a full 4k kit makes more sense.

Maybe in a few years... ;)

(Seriously, hurry up and take my money!! I'll buy it!!) :) :)
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:52 pm 


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Do you even know what you're asking for here? Are there even any FPGA's out there fast enough for 4K?


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:44 pm 


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yxkalle wrote:
Do you even know what you're asking for here? Are there even any FPGA's out there fast enough for 4K?


For the first time ever, I do have a concept of what I'm asking. Maybe that's why I said "in a few years".

My point was implied, but not spelled out--until now.

The Hi Def NES is fine for my needs. No, I won't shell out more money and go through more hassle for another scaling option at 1080p. It's not enough improvement for me to bother.

You're not going to be like the guy that spent fifteen minutes yelling at me about how Super VGA games would never ever happen, are you? About five years later, my friends and I ran into him again. We all used our best Corky voices and repeated, "Super VGA will never happen" until he left. Classic. :)

A refresh will have to wait. The next kit will be aimed at 4k.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:23 pm 


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yxkalle wrote:
Do you even know what you're asking for here? Are there even any FPGA's out there fast enough for 4K?

Sure there are - Lumagen scalers are FPGA-based.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:38 pm 


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Wouldn't the cost of an FPGA that can drive a 600MHz output be kind of insane for this sort of product? The 4K Lumagen scalers start at $4,000 USD, and 600MHz output would seem to be on the edge of what the fastest FPGAs can support. It would probably be more than a few years before you could get that sort of hardware in a $120 product.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:23 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Wouldn't the cost of an FPGA that can drive a 600MHz output be kind of insane for this sort of product? The 4K Lumagen scalers start at $4,000 USD, and 600MHz output would seem to be on the edge of what the fastest FPGAs can support. It would probably be more than a few years before you could get that sort of hardware in a $120 product.


True.

But, you are also comparing a full featured frame buffer video processor to a kit that handles one scanline at a time. :)

I seriously doubt the current FPGA powering the Hi Def NES could perform like a DVDO vp50pro (1080p). I seem to recall hearing that unit also retailed for more than a just paycheck...
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:16 am 


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Generating one scanline at a time or not, if you're going to output a 600MHz pixel clock (4K60), you're going to need to be able to switch the IO pin that fast, no? Doesn't much matter what else you're doing, and not many FPGAs go that fast.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:39 pm 


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The HDMI-transmitter that is used in the Hi-def NES can handle a resolution of 1600x1200, which is a nice 5x integer upscale. Is that a resolution 4k TV's handles nicely?


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:00 pm 



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Is it possible to install both the NESRGB and Hi-Def NES in the same NES? (front-loader)


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:03 pm 



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sofakng wrote:
Is it possible to install both the NESRGB and Hi-Def NES in the same NES? (front-loader)


No. They both require full control of PPU


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:13 pm 



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So aside from savestates and 8:7, does this blow the NES Classic out of the water?


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:14 pm 



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Well, the NES Classic is just an emulator so they are really two completely different things.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:13 pm 


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Quick question. Got my hdmi-nes kit in the mail. Ordered the cap kit as well. Also got a blinking light win. Any other mods/ worthwhile improvements for a frontloader while i've got it apart?


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:44 am 



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So... I've just finished installing my Hi-Def NES in my top loader and I'm getting a gray screen with 1080p output.

I've double-checked my soldering and everything looks OK.

Any suggestions? I'm using a blinking light win and usually I can see my EverDrive LED start blinking when the console boots, but with the Hi-Def NES I don't even see that light blinking.

The Hi-Def NES board has an orange LED which is fading from bright to dark over and over.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:32 am 


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sofakng wrote:
So... I've just finished installing my Hi-Def NES in my top loader and I'm getting a gray screen with 1080p output.

I've double-checked my soldering and everything looks OK.

Any suggestions? I'm using a blinking light win and usually I can see my EverDrive LED start blinking when the console boots, but with the Hi-Def NES I don't even see that light blinking.

The Hi-Def NES board has an orange LED which is fading from bright to dark over and over.


The Hi-Def will generate the gray screen (via HDMI) with even both CPU/PPU interposers disconnected. This just tells you that the Hi-Def PCB itself is coming online.

This is most likely a connection problem between the PPU's/CPU's/Interposer's/Motherboard/Ribbon Cables. Make sure that your interposer's and CPU/PPU are oriented in the correct direction.
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:48 pm 



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Hmmm... I've double-checked all of the interposers and chip orientation and everything looks good. I've also reseated all of the ribbon cables.

Anything else I can do to troubleshoot? I've checked a few pins on the bottom of the motherboard (looking for traces to see if it was connected and everything looks OK).

The only problem was during my first test w/o the Hi-Def NES, two of the in-line sockets had their round connector pulled out so I had to desolder them and then solder two pins from the interposers directly to the NES motherboard but everything looks OK. (are they standard 2.54mm sockets if I wanted to purchase new ones?)

Here are a bunch of pictures I just took: http://imgur.com/a/PXgBd


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:20 pm 


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Yeah, it's a communication problem between the mainboard and interposers/CPU/PPU. Time to start buzzing and making sure everything's connected and making contact. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:18 pm 



Joined: 02 Sep 2016
Posts: 78
Are there any diagrams that show where the CPU and PPU pins go to on the motherboard so I can check each pin for continuity?

Also, any idea what size the IC sockets that are included with the Hi-Def NES so I can order more and try this in another NES that I have?


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:29 pm 



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Did you get Jason to build the interposers for you, or did you do it yourself?

There's one other thing you can try to see if it's CPU or PPU (little trick I discovered). Plug the NES using standard composite. This will turn off the Hi Def NES and use the transistor on the PPU interposer to amplify the signal (I assume you did that jumper on the board for old composite video support). If the CPU connection is bad, you'll get no video. If PPU connection is bad, you'll get broken pixelated picture.

The LED going from dim to full brightness and back to dim means that the hi def NES kit is working correctly, and is able to communicate with your TV. If it remains dim and doesn't go full bright, you got a bad HDMI cable / HDCP not negotiated correctly [power cycle your TV to reset HDCP on TV and try again]


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