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 Post subject: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:37 pm 


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Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 173
I talked Kevtris in to making us an HDMI mod kit for the nes consoles since he already had most of it figured out on his FPGA multi system.
This is just the initial announcement of release, more info will be posted as we make it happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnQuBN3iYVA

Not a clone system!
Uses the nintendo's cpu and ppu.
Fully HDMI standards compliant.

No frame buffer so NO LAG between controller and monitor.

Resolutions:
using ntsc cpu/ppu 480p, 720p, 1080p
using pal cpu/ppu 567p, 720p, 1080p
Kit will auto detect which chips it's connected to.
It will also detect if either have failed and flash a trouble code.
Will output only as high a res as the monitor will handle.

Aspect ration will be user adjustable in the menu, seen as horizontal stretch in the menu in the vid.

A few palettes will be included and user selectable in the menu.
Custom palettes can be uploaded to the nesHD using a flash cart etc.

Built in overclocking with option to not have it mess up the sound pitch.

Reconfigurable hot keys to get to menu.

Console reset via controller hot keys.

Updating firmware will be done via an ".nes" file, via flashcart etc, if necessary.

All audio is generated in the kit, so it will be %100 digital and theoretically noise free.
User will be able to control each audio channel from the menu.
You will be able to adjust left and right volume output of each channel independently.
Most expansion audio chips will also be programmed in to the kit and we hope to auto detect which one will be needed for a game that is being played, but may also have the option to turn each on and off.
Currently working: normal nes audio, fds, N106, mmc5, and sunsoft 5B.
VRC7 is still a maybe...
5.1 and 7.1 is also a maybe...
Might also have the ability to turn off certain channels independently.

HQX scaling is also a maybe...

Scanlines will be included, still in progress.

Possibly a built in CopyNES.

Easy instal, desolder the cpu and ppu and cut out a few mounting holes using an included template.

Tested with some known problem carts, multi carts, powerpak, and everdrive.
More testing will be done as we progress.

Kit cost will most likely be under $150 and installation by me under $100, but nothing is set yet.
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Last edited by game-tech.us on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:42 pm 



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 211
I saw the videos earlier today. Good stuff.

One question that came to mind is how flexible the upscaling will be. Is 4K in the cards? What about 768p (the res that most "720p" sets actually render)?


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:47 pm 


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Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 3269
Location: Phoenix
Sixfortyfive wrote:
Is 4K in the cards?

Didn't see that question coming.
-ud
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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:09 pm 


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Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 1400
Looks interesting! Sounds like it will be a while before you will be selling kits?

It appears to use an Altera Cyclone III FPGA. http://www.altera.com/devices/fpga/cycl ... -index.jsp

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:43 pm 


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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 668
Location: Seattle, WA
Excellent. Saw your video on my YouTube feed first before I hit up shmups today.

It really is an exciting time for stuff like this. Regardless of the final outcome, pricing, etc, please tell Kevin "thanks," Jason. Dedication to projects like this from guys like Tim and Kevin helps us continue to ride the nostalgia wave. And while we are at it, thank you for all of the videos you do.

This sounds like a phenomenal solution for those that want to play their old NES without having to do/have an RGB mod + pair it with a potentially expensive upscaler. And honestly, I can't help but wonder if I myself would go this route and just pull my NES from the RGB out->Framemeister solution and go straight NESHD. It would surely eliminate some of the solid color noise I see thanks to the xrgb's lack of filtering.

Ironically - I have an Altera USB Blaster, but I do not have a flash cart.

Desoldering the PPU isn't *that* bad without a fancy desoldering pump, but maybe doing both the CPU and PPU will give me reason to finally pull the trigger and add a Hakko FR-300 to my arsenal.

Excited to follow this project!


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:58 pm 


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Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 317
Location: Ioannina , Greece
I need one , inside a famicomAV (or maybe my original famicom if you can install it on the underside of the mobo like the nesrgb).
No need to say more. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:01 pm 


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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
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Location: Seattle, WA
I noticed that the video footage of SMB2 Kevin posted had a bit of a dancing first horizontal line at the top of the screen. Some people running NESRGB see a bit of a hook in that first line. Both of these are due to the little tricks the NES does on that first line.

And this pairs with a suggestion - Could we add some sort of cropping ability on both the horizontal and vertical sides? Various NES games have a bit of graphical "garbage in/garbage out" during scrolling sequences (Double Dragon II is absolutely horrible at times). Some soft of crop or frame mask option might be useful.

CRT overscan helps a bit with this, but that isn't something you are going to have on a widescreen HD display.


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:16 pm 


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Location: Ioannina , Greece
Oh, another thing that popped in mind: how hard it would be to add a normal stereo 3.5mm audio-out jack?
It would be just great to be able to use external speakers instead of the crappy tv built-in ones...


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:11 am 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 397
Wow, I have to read up on this!


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:46 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
Jason, Kevin congrats on the neshd, it seems like the perfect solution for users that want to connect their NES to an HDTV. I suspect the video quality is going to be superior to NESRGB + scalar running to an HDTV. Confusion around SCART / cables would finally go away.

I would sure be picking one up when made available in kit format and installing it into a spare nes I have. The ability to control resolution and audio in menu is very cool.

The only thing I'm a bit skeptical about is the video authenticity. I have seen NESRGB + Scalar to HDMI on my expensive Sony flat panel TV and compared it to NESRGB + 20" Sony pvm. For me, I found the PVM route to look more realistic / pleasing. Ability to play light gun games is also a nice bonus you will lose on HDTV. I just love the scan lines (both horizontal and vertical) - pvm makes nes look like arcade game. I felt the scalar / HDMI made the game look like emulator / PC gaming.

At the end of the day it's all a personal choice and I'm glad to see the option is there. Competition is a good thing.

Congrats again. Keep the nes rocking.


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:04 am 


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Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 1274
Location: Bedfordshire, England.
Will there be an option to enable scanlines??


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:10 pm 



Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 598
Location: Europe
leonk wrote:
The only thing I'm a bit skeptical about is the video authenticity. I have seen NESRGB + Scalar to HDMI on my expensive Sony flat panel TV and compared it to NESRGB + 20" Sony pvm. For me, I found the PVM route to look more realistic / pleasing. Ability to play light gun games is also a nice bonus you will lose on HDTV. I just love the scan lines (both horizontal and vertical) - pvm makes nes look like arcade game. I felt the scalar / HDMI made the game look like emulator / PC gaming.


Um, doesn't that make it perfect then? :lol:

Obviously there are those of us that will prefer NESRGB hooked up to a CRT but for those using an LCD this solution, even without scanlines, looks amazing. Some seriously talented people in this community.


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:23 pm 


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Posts: 1150
Location: Germany
lettuce wrote:
Will there be an option to enable scanlines??

game-tech.us wrote:
Scanlines will be included, still in progress.


I hope this doesn't just output at the max resolution that the display supports. For me the 1080p image is way too sharp, I would prefer a softer 480p/720p image with scanlines.


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:54 pm 


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Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 173
It will have user controllable scanlines. I don't know why we forgot to mention that in the vid, but it's one of the first things he was working on that night when we were shooting vid about it.
So it will be shown being worked on in the next series of long boring bullshit vid from that night that was shot before the official release video was made.
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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:15 pm 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11317
Location: Germany
It's a good approach. Not as versatile as an external upscaler, but it eliminates the lag due to any external processing.

Do you already know how it will handle the upscaling to 1080p ? 480p and 720p are easy in comparison. And what about the scanline pattern for 1080p ?


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:18 am 



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 174
Love it!

How does the picture quality compare to NESRGB + XRGB mini (Framemeister)?


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:36 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
Jeppen wrote:
Love it!

How does the picture quality compare to NESRGB + XRGB mini (Framemeister)?


I'd love to see a full Fudoh review.

Keep in mind that this device only works for NES. Xrgb works for all RGB devices.


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:33 pm 


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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 668
Location: Seattle, WA
CkRtech wrote:
Could we add some sort of cropping ability on both the horizontal and vertical sides? Various NES games have a bit of graphical "garbage in/garbage out" during scrolling sequences (Double Dragon II is absolutely horrible at times). Some soft of crop or frame mask option might be useful.

CRT overscan helps a bit with this, but that isn't something you are going to have on a widescreen HD display.


Heard Kevin mention that he planned on to do something like this in the latest game-tech.us video. Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:53 pm 


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I missed whether there would be 4:3 mode (adding black bars left/right) or not. Would be sort of strange to assume that everyone is cool with full screen stretched out images. Also, adding HQX would be dreamy :D
-ud
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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:03 pm 


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Posts: 173
Posted more vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYWGAS7s3Vw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPPgwh6nLeI
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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:05 pm 


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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 668
Location: Seattle, WA
undamned wrote:
I missed whether there would be 4:3 mode (adding black bars left/right) or not. Would be sort of strange to assume that everyone is cool with full screen stretched out images. Also, adding HQX would be dreamy :D
-ud


He did mention that he would actually have a slider where you could adjust the aspect ratio along with indicators of where the standard ARs (i.e. 4:3) would be along that slider.

Lemme see if I can tag in a time reference here... http://youtu.be/YYWGAS7s3Vw?t=24m40s


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:20 pm 


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Posts: 3269
Location: Phoenix
CkRtech wrote:
undamned wrote:
I missed whether there would be 4:3 mode (adding black bars left/right) or not. Would be sort of strange to assume that everyone is cool with full screen stretched out images. Also, adding HQX would be dreamy :D
-ud


He did mention that he would actually have a slider where you could adjust the aspect ratio along with indicators of where the standard ARs (i.e. 4:3) would be along that slider.

Lemme see if I can tag in a time reference here... http://youtu.be/YYWGAS7s3Vw?t=24m40s

Oh, excellent! I watched the edited one a couple times, but didn't watch any of the unedited stuff. Thanks! :D
-ud
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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:42 pm 



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 174
It would be cool if you could choose to bypass the digital sound channels in order to keep it analogue.
Perhaps built into the menu?

Even if i love the idea of noiseless sound, i wouldn't want to lose the analogue bit.

If it's not possible to feed the HDMI with analogue sound signals??
If not you'd have to use a separate audio connector i guess, perhaps something like the 3,5 mm that Tim Worthington supplies with his NESRGB boards?


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:08 pm 



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 221
really looking forwards to this... just need to start saving monies! :D


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:50 pm 



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Can't wait for this! Jason, I've sent you an email.


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:38 pm 


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Posts: 173
Galgomite wrote:
Can't wait for this! Jason, I've sent you an email.


Emails are ignored as i've been clear I do not wish for ppl to bug me for details and to be put on lists etc.
Info will only be released as it comes through via vids and forum threads, not by one on one emails.
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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:19 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
game-tech.us wrote:
Galgomite wrote:
Can't wait for this! Jason, I've sent you an email.


Emails are ignored as i've been clear I do not wish for ppl to bug me for details and to be put on lists etc.
Info will only be released as it comes through via vids and forum threads, not by one on one emails.


Folks, given them some space. If you watch the YouTube! videos, you'll know that the code isn't even complete. There's still a lot of development on going. I would be surprised if the first few systems will be out in 2014. More realistically, early 2015, with kits coming out in the Spring! (Do you guys remember how long NESRGB took? almost a year!!)


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 Post subject: Re: NESHD - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:29 pm 



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 45
This is quite impressive, while not 100% my cup of tea, I do have a couple questions and a comment that might be relevant;

Q1: I noticed the picture is full height at 1080p, which isn't an integer multiple of the source vertical resolution. Is there an option for integer multiple that just hasn't been shown in the videos released at the time of this post?
(I understand that non-integer scaling is basically unavoidable horizontally.)

C1: Kevtris mentioned not being sure if a $11 increase in the BOM cost was worth VRC7 or not. Considering the current price of Lagrange Point after the release of the translation patch, I'd argue it probably is worthwhile, especially if it also results in HQX.

Q2: This may be a strange question, but I find the audio generator portion of this device the most fascinating. After the full NESHD no longer needs full development attention, is there any chance of an audio module only with digital coax and/or optical output?

EDIT - Q/A3: Originally asked about the NES' framerate not being exactly 60hz. Checked the NESDEV thread since I just realized I hadn't yet, this one was answered, it is indeed doing an imperceptible underclock to be exactly 60hz standards compliant.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:13 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1185
yeah i agree - an audio module only would be cool. that sound is incredible. but does this have rgb video built into it too? im curious how you hooked up the neshd to the pvm.

very nice project.


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 Post subject: Re: Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:30 pm 


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mvsfan wrote:
yeah i agree - an audio module only would be cool. that sound is incredible. but does this have rgb video built into it too? im curious how you hooked up the neshd to the pvm.

very nice project.


The nesHD name is out and it's called Hi-Def NES now, but it wasn't hooked up to a pvm, there is no analogue rgb output, hdmi only. The little pvm at Kevin's is hooked up to his multi system which does have rgb out.
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