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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:07 pm 



Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 53
Gunstar wrote:
flynnsbit wrote:
Gunstar wrote:
@flynnsbit, thank you for the extra pictures, this makes sense now. I'm guessing someone will be selling these fully assembled/soldered for those with no soldering skills. Very cool!


Hope so, the design needs some tinkering to make it better for the masses but could open up GBS-Control to users that just can't solder. Hoping someone picks up and sells for others.

What would be even cooler is to include the clock chip in the design so you can just "snap on both in one shot.


An option with the clock board would be even better! it would be nice to recommend this to those on a budget and aren't into tinkering.

Do you know if this is this the solution amoore2600 hinted at a while back?
Image


I'm not positive if this is the exact solution he was referencing, but it seems very likely. I started ordering different sockets to see how close I can get to having a clock snap on. That is going to be a journey. I built the other one for fun and to give me some ideas for different solutions.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:29 pm 



Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 53
Rama et all, Is there anyway to default to 15hz downscale as the default and if no source is detected? I want the fallback preset to always be 15Hz as I am feeding to a component TV.

FTL on
Active FrameTime Lock not necessary with external clock gen installed
FTL off
Source format not properly recognized, using fallback preset!
ADC offset: R:40 G:40 B:40
clock gen reset: 162000000
Output Format: Component

preset applied: 1280x960 for EDTV 60Hz

sync skipped sfr wrong: 0.00
debug view: on


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:52 pm 


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The gbs starts at up at whatever the last resolution or profile it was on when used last.

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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:51 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2020
Posts: 1
Hey, I am having an issue with the GBS control mod and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions.

The main issue is that I am getting no picture.
But if I use the GBS board (v4 2019) without the mod I am getting a picture (jumper and esp8266 power removed).

I have only been able to use my PS2 component (ypbpr) output for the time being. I am using an HDMI adapter. I have tried two monitors but I get the same issue on both.

I have tried reversing the sca and scl wires and this appears to stop function completely.
The D1 mini clone I am using is responding by WiFi with the interface and when I don't have the wires reversed the light comes on when the component cable is connected. This makes me think the chip is okay?
I made the potentiometer, sync-ground resistor, capacitor mod.

The next options I am thinking of trying are to go ahead and build the scart input and see if it works with that. If that doesn't work then trying a different esp8266 board.

I would be grateful for any suggestions of other things to try!


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:14 pm 


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flynnsbit wrote:
Rama et all, Is there anyway to default to 15hz downscale as the default and if no source is detected? I want the fallback preset to always be 15Hz as I am feeding to a component TV.

FTL on
Active FrameTime Lock not necessary with external clock gen installed
FTL off
Source format not properly recognized, using fallback preset!
ADC offset: R:40 G:40 B:40
clock gen reset: 162000000
Output Format: Component

preset applied: 1280x960 for EDTV 60Hz

sync skipped sfr wrong: 0.00
debug view: on


Make sure you hit Save Preset after selecting the 15 Khz downscale in the web interface. After that, as NoAffinity mentioned, it will load the settings you selected for that input format. Bear in mind that if you use other input formats as well (480i, 640x480 VGA) you will have to do this on the same preset slot for each format you load, as different settings are stored for each format.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:23 pm 


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Bob is teasing me with GBS comparison videos, but currently isn't able to properly record the GBS's output.

Would anybody be willing to help me out by recording a short clip using an up-to-date GBSControl-equipped unit and a 480i source (ideally a PS2 with specific titles) in either uncompressed format (HuffYUV, Lagarith etc) or some really high bit-rate 4:4:4 multi-pass h.264 ? If anybody has a working GBS recording setup, I'd be thankful for a short PM!


Last edited by Fudoh on Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:28 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
Bob is teasing me GBS comparisons, but currently isn't able to properly record the GBS's output.

Would anybody be willing to help me out by recording a short clip using an up-to-date GBSControl-equipped unit and a 480i source (ideally a PS2 with specific titles) in either uncompressed format (HuffYUV, Lagarith etc) or some really high bit-rate 4:4:4 multi-pass h.264 ? If anybody has a working GBS recording setup, I'd be thankful for a short PM!


Any interest in some phone videos taken directly via my phone of the GBS upscaling PS2 to 720p RGBHV on a CRT presentation monitor?

EDIT: ahh whatever here they are anyway lol

https://www.instagram.com/p/CC2OO5nF8rh/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CC2OTGBltel/

(Set to motion adaptive deinterlacing)

I can try to capture some shit later but I have a StarTech USB3HDCAP - that one doesn't quite cut the mustard for 4:4:4, does it...?
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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:21 am 


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Hello guys, I'm new here, retro gamer from Belgium.

I'm looking into buildind a GBS 8220 for dual output. Can any of you link me to the most recent guide? I'm mainly looking to downscale for using content on my BVM.
I'm sorry but I don't have the time to read 115 pages, even if I'm sure I'll learn a lot, time is not on my side -as for all of us-

Thanks a lot!


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:54 am 


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I have pretty good videos available already. What I'm looking for is a short 1080p60 capture in 4:4:4 with a specific titlle, so I can have a look at how the GBS handles chroma sub- and upsamplng as well as how well background resolution is preserved during deinterlacing. It's very specific, I know.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:02 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
I have pretty good videos available already. What I'm looking for is a short 1080p60 capture in 4:4:4 with a specific titlle, so I can have a look at how the GBS handles chroma sub- and upsamplng as well as how well background resolution is preserved during deinterlacing. It's very specific, I know.


I've got a softmodded PS2 with a SATA drive in it, I could get the game on there very easily and capture some footage - my USB3HDCAP is essentially the same as Micomsoft's X-Capture, if you know that 4:4:4 capture should be possible with the Xcap/Startech, then I could probably help you later today. I've already got HuffYUV, what game?
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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:04 pm 


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Bob put out a nice video today with detailed installation and setup instructions, as well as some overall thoughts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmfR0XI5czI&lc

Suggest putting this on the wiki somewhere as a lot of people prefer video guides for this sort of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:12 pm 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
Posts: 1366
Fudoh:
I wish I could help, but I don't have the equipment to do captures.

For the chroma: Most modes are sub-sampled, but at a high pixel clock.
This generates almost enough samples so that the digital processing stages can form solid looking blue / red pixel edges.
The result is something that you would definitely recognize as sub-sampled, but it's better than what you'd normally expect :)

You ask for deinterlaced content, which adds an additional step in the digital processing chain.
The source for the motion adaptive engine is the previous field's luma + the current fields luma.
It might also do something with the current field chroma. I'm not sure on that.
I definitely don't use the full luma + chroma methods that are possible though.
Those would require 2 or 3 additional fields, and that's too much lag to be worthwhile, imho.

Edit:
@Kez: Done :)


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:56 pm 


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Rama, thanks for elaborating on this! I have no doubts that it performs nicely, I'm just sick of people's attempts to demonstrate one thing or the other through youtube videos, which simply can't do any justice to any processor's output. In general a 4:2:2 processing path is nothing terrible per se. It can still look good, but unfortunately it can also be executed quite terribly and this will show.

I'm very much looking forward to try GBSControl in person, I currently just can't be bothered to put on together. I'll jump at the first opportunity get one build to order though.

For the moment I just need to put my mind to rest. It's basically in an uproar since something like 5 weeks ago Voultar called the GBS's deinterlacing superior to the FM's. I can accept that people like what they're seeing (and a hundred times over at that price), but deinterlacing is hard, really, really hard and there are only a few things that can put a smile on my face every single time, and the FM's capabilities in terms of deinterlacing are definitely one of those things. So, basically Im just looking for a 10 second video clip to blow me away :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:11 am 



Joined: 22 Jun 2020
Posts: 6
Some more updates from me on my downscaling with the GBS Control.

- I've ditched the Extron again - Straight 480p is easier to produce in my chosen sources (Linux, Mac, Xbox360, Switch, Wii etc). It's definitely an option for certain sources, perhaps 24hz signals from an X68000 for example
- Downscaling from 480p COMPONENT to 240p is straight forward and just works (Wii, PS2)
- Adding a HDMI to Component converter/transcoder (Cheap Porto HDMI to Component off Amazon) allows you to send HDMI sources into the GBS... :) Allowing you to downscale HDMI 480p directly to 240p, I assume with no added lag from the HDMI to Component conversion

Everything's great, and then I discovered I could passthrough signals... So:

- Retroach 'Super resolutions' *can* be passed through HDMI to component, into the GBS, and RGBHV out to PVM. Granted, same thing can be achieved with a CRT that supports component, but my PVM does not (146nu). RGBHV output needs to be sync combined to RGBS in my case.
- I am using a Linux laptop which means no need for specific ATI cards... This is just the internal Intel chipset. Pretty handy for folks that don't want to invest in Groovymame/Groovyarcade setup
- It's not very stable, I suspect I need to configure Retroarch and Xorg correctly. Work out how to add the 'working' super resolutions to Xorg/Xrandr directly, and ensure that sync is kept when starting/exiting retroarch.

I'm pleasantly surprised that the multi-step transcoding/passthrough stuff even works! Testament to GBS Control being a very versatile piece of kit. Can't wait for Bobs video on deinterlacing, perhaps he might take a look at downscaling in more detail one day too!


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:52 am 


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https://www.ebay.com/itm/AVerMedia-AVer ... 4136251356

Image

I forget if I mentioned it here, but you can get these super super cheap scan converters on eBay for the less-finicky 480i>240p downscaling (compared to 480p>240p). I haven't used mine in eons so I quickly need to double check that it's indeed wired for RGBS out on the DE15 port labeled 'SCART out', but I am almost positive it is... I don't believe ANY down-scan converters were ever wired for sync over composite/luma?

And since they opted for DE15, no need for BNC to DE15 like some of the fancier scan converters! I will confirm as soon as I can.
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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:44 am 


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The all in one/pre-made GBS has a webpage now https://www.gbscaio.com/, Zerohimself will sell it on his site alongside DIY kits. No price announced yet.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:15 pm 


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Has anyone had any trouble with 240p/480i switches causing small dropouts again after installing the clock generator?
Mine is wired up C47 for power and there's no more tearing but but the resolution switching is causing Sync to drop now in a similar fashion to how it would with the Retrotink 2X when 240p switches to 480i.

The wiki says C47 or C48 are both options, but I see everyone using C48?


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:44 pm 



Joined: 08 Jul 2020
Posts: 13
What if you just epoxied or "hot snotted" a piece to the top of the existing chip, and it had some threaded pieces you could thread down until they made solid contact with the pins on the chip (using a little loctite to secure the threaded pieces) and simply attached the necessary wires to those? It'd be solder free, and 100% secured, and likely dirt cheap to make too.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:09 am 



Joined: 26 Dec 2018
Posts: 36
Gunstar wrote:
Image
The all in one/pre-made GBS has a webpage now https://www.gbscaio.com/, Zerohimself will sell it on his site alongside DIY kits. No price announced yet.

I have a question. Not that I want to be mean, but the last time I watched the topic a year ago. How is this different from GBS with GBS-Control? I mean I can see there is more electronics, but I would like to know what?

Second question, has anyone used GBS with a CRT monitor? Could he show off photos of what the painting looks like?


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:01 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 324
Anyone got one of these?

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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:58 am 


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retromaniak wrote:
Gunstar wrote:
The all in one/pre-made GBS has a webpage now https://www.gbscaio.com/, Zerohimself will sell it on his site alongside DIY kits. No price announced yet.

I have a question. Not that I want to be mean, but the last time I watched the topic a year ago. How is this different from GBS with GBS-Control? I mean I can see there is more electronics, but I would like to know what?

Second question, has anyone used GBS with a CRT monitor? Could he show off photos of what the painting looks like?


Not really any different, it's just been put in a case. I believe the extra PCB is for a SCART input with a sync stripper. The site says it will be made open source so I assume you will be able to print your own case or SCART input pcb.

When you say CRT monitor do you mean any or a PC/PVM CRT monitor specifically?

@Strayan - I like the way it's been setup more than the GBSC-AIO.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:08 pm 



Joined: 31 Jan 2019
Posts: 3
First of all this is an amazing feat! Congrats to everyone involved.

What about an option to downscale the input to 240p before any upscale? I mean... it would normalize the input to 240p for adding scanlines - even to 480i/p - and then upscaling to the selected output - eg. 960p.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:20 pm 


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@retromaniak yes, I use mine with a pc crt (31khz) and witha sony trinitron (15khz). Look back through the thread for pics by me and others. If you find the area where downscaling was being implemented, theres lots of 15khz pics with various use cases.

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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:54 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2018
Posts: 36
I mean running games on a budget CRT VGA monitor (like in most garbage cans ;))

My point is that such equipment is much better at displaying the image than a TV set, it is smaller than it and generally it has more advantages than disadvantages, it is cheaper than PVM and offers little worse quality.

The problem is that it is impossible to connect the old console to such a monitor in a relatively simple way (with the exception of dreamcast). Therefore, I would like to know if the GBS + CRT VGA monitor set will be able to replace my old TV set?


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:56 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Posts: 30
It is not a problem to connect the consoles to this, in fact it is very simple just make Scart cables to VGA or enter Scart directly through the RGBS port of GBS I do not understand why it should be complicated. And finally a VGA monitor is always a great option with scaler like this, but also a VGA to HDMI converter is a great solution.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:52 pm 


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Location: BW, Germany
Ryoandr wrote:
rememberizer wrote:
Ryoandr wrote:
Use a supergun with some video buffer IC.
The GBS was made for converting arcade machines
It doesn't mean it is built properly :P

To add to that; consider that the Framemeister was also designed with arcade sources in mind, and there's still this.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:00 am 



Joined: 06 Aug 2018
Posts: 20
I am very concerned solder-less installs are neglecting the C11 upgrade (required) and removal of pots RP1,2,3. The LDO does oscillate badly and AMS spec asks for an electrolytic. I know why those pots have to go but how much warning to people need to be given? I have disassembled the pots (torn apart) to find a microscopic bit of a copper wiper across carbon. It's an insult to shielded, coax RGB cables to have your RGB lines go through variable pots of such basic quality. Their variability leaves colours affected unevenly even when 'turned down'. Most eBay sellers are adding RGB SCART inputs which should never have R G B lines over 1v p-p anyway.

I have made 12 GBS-Controlled 8200 scalers now for my local vintage computing group, primarily for use with the Apple IIGS. I have learned a lot along the way. I wanted to share the one failure I had. The last board I build could not display any video and I could not understand the log in GBS Control, so I started by continuity. checking everything. My wire and joints were fine, instead what I found was a missing or broken trace from factory on the SDA pad (!). Somewhere in the Github page Rama talks about tracing from the TrueView IC over to the controller. I was able to see the 33-ohm resistors were fine, connectivity to the Myson controller was fine and the scaler worked as stock. But when I added the Arduino / debug mode, it wouldn't work. The trace from the right SDA to Myson pin 26 was bad. Soldering directly to it immediately solved my no image problem. The 8200 board was silkscreened as 2009 but was labelled with a date of manufacture of 2020-06-06.

https://imgur.com/gallery/CGjWScO


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:27 pm 


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captaineos wrote:
I am very concerned solder-less installs are neglecting the C11 upgrade (required) and removal of pots RP1,2,3.

Personally I strongly prefer soldered solutions for obvious reasons, but I don't think it's necessarily going to ruin the experience and I'm not sure if there's a reliable (to manufacture) solderless way to handle, say, the C11 mod.

My 2009 boards have mostly the same level of noise regardless of C11. And the ADC calibration makes a huge difference for the biggest problems with the pots.

Yes, colors from the RGB input look better after removing the pots, and with varying quality in the board revisions it won't be a perfect uniform experience in terms of noise and quality but I guess people just need to manage their expectations and understand that solderless solutions are literally shortcuts that come with their own shortcomings.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:42 pm 


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The GBS-C AIO would be a "soldered" solution no? I'm certainly looking to get one considering it's PNP.


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 Post subject: Re: GBS 8200/8220 CFW Project
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:54 am 


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So, I wanted to revisit chaining the GBS w/ rama firmware to OSSC, for a specific use case.

Playing Neo Geo MVS on a Retrotek supegun (yes its cheap, but it works...pretty well)->SCART->OSSC, I optimized the OSSC, got it looking great, but would get infrequent momentary audio drop-outs. The MVS is known to need a bit of extra tuning w/ OSSC via 'H-PLL Post Coast' and 'HSync tolerance' tweaks. I'm attributing it to either a related tolerance mis-match, or something else unknown that isn't quite aligned with the MVS' output.

So, I tested the chain of:
MVS 1-slot -> Retrotek Supergun SCART output -> GBS-8200 w/ rama firmware, VGA output -> VGA-to-YPbPr transcoder -> OSSC YPbPr input

This cleared up the drop-outs.

Once digging into testing, I was impressed with how good the result could look, so decided to do some more testing for video aesthetics.

Testing a street fighter 2 ex arcade board, I set the GBS to 1280x1024 output, so OSSC is treating it as pass-thru.

I tested:
1) OSSC @ default settings, with minor tweaks to H. Backporch and V. Backporch to center the image
2) OSSC w/ attempted optimization

In the capture, the image ratio appears to be about comparable between both settings. On my flat panel, the optimized image is more compressed, much closer to what I assume is native 1280x1024.

Either way, it looks pretty darn good, and most importantly, no audio drop out.

And there was some recent questions about chaining GBS w/ rama firmware -> OSSC, so hear you go:
https://youtu.be/XAmvp0XqhoE

And here's a direct download link of the original video file: https://we.tl/t-4H5blxp2HD


Last edited by NoAffinity on Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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