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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:09 pm 



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
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Bobster wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
RaphM wrote:
I got my OSSC this weekend and just finished setting everything up / digging through the settings etc... .
I was especially hyped about the line5x mode, finally got it to work and wanted to share some insights:

* My TV: Sony kdl55w755 (which is known for low input lag in game mode, 1080p screen), no other devices but a gscartsw_lite in the chain
* "Allow TVP HPLL2x" set to off

Initially 5x mode was not recognized, but with the above setting I was able to "trick" my TV into accepting the mode by switching between the "Line5x modes":
Usually a single "Generic 4:3" -> "320x240 optim." -> "256x240 optim" -> "Generic 4:3" cycle is enough and the TV will suddenly accept the image (and it also never dropped again, even on console resets).
Performing this trick is bit annoying though, maybe somebody got some advanced scaling settings that could help s.t. the output is accepted initially?

But anyway, I am super happy with the OSSC and am now connecting all my 240p consoles through it.
The Framemeister is still used for Shenanigans like 7x zooming into the Super Gameboy and interlaced sources (which is basically only my PS2), but for all other uses the super low input lag (I'm reaching ~1 frame results in the manual lag test of the 240p test suite) and perfect color processing of the OSSC make it my new #1 choice :).


This is super interesting since I think it's the first time the low-lag Sonys have been proven to work (at least to some degree) on a setting above 2x?

I'm sure 480px2 remains broken, but for your x5 setup do the NES/SNES work?


Color me interested as well. My KDL50W800B doesn't do anything above x2 when I tested. I'll have to give this a shot!


I know im late, but have you had any success with that? Or anyone with a 1080p Sony TV before the Android ones for that matter.

I have a Sony KDL60W855B (W850B in the US) and i cannot go any higher than 2x with my OSSC and SNES/PS1/GENESIS consoles.


Last edited by CesarDRK on Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:52 am 


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55W755C, IIRC the 'C' models aren't the low-lag ones of previous 'A' and 'B' series, and may have different compatibility.

Though that doesn't rule-out that trick working for them too...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:03 pm 


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Where do you see that 'C'? Can't see it in the OP.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:47 pm 


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Just experience, that's an old topic I know kinda well since I was knee-deep into low lag full-hd Sony sets back then. AFAIK there was never a W755B, only C which was a 2015 model featuring Android.

PS: I don't remember well, the info must be buried deep down into the forums, but among the C series only a 32" model had the sub-1 frame lag (one thet Fudoh later said had a bad panel), and maybe a 43" but I don't remember if that was confirmed or not. Otherwise from 2015 most Sony sets were in the 35ms ballpark if not more maybe for some.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:59 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Just experience, that's an old topic I know kinda well since I was knee-deep into low lag full-hd Sony sets back then. AFAIK there was never a W755B, only C which was a 2015 model featuring Android.

PS: I don't remember well, the info must be buried deep down into the forums, but among the C series only a 32" model had the sub-1 frame lag (one thet Fudoh later said had a bad panel), and maybe a 43" but I don't remember if that was confirmed or not. Otherwise from 2015 most Sony sets were in the 35ms ballpark if not more maybe for some.


America got a W700B as well that was only available at Best Buy in 50" and 55" and slightly improved further on the W600B's lag. I think it was also available in Canada?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:31 pm 


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W800B was a 2014 model so it was fine lag-wise, not W6/W7A&B-fast (6ms) but just 1 frame.
Best TV of the year.
(though the 43" had 3D layer screendoor effect and lacked the good motion plus feature, but larger were fine)

W600B was not part of the 'great' Full-HD series of 2013-2014, it was in a lower-category.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:04 am 



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The W800B has a VERY low input lag for a TV, i cant even notice a diference against my 1440p 144hz gaming ips monitor.
Quality wise it´s very good also, with some very deep blacks (not oled level obviously, but VERY good in its own right). I really dont miss on 4k or hdr right now.

I was really hoping to get the OSSC working at 3x or 5x in it, because i have no intention of replacing it anytime soon.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:23 pm 



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Is there an ultimate monitor or series of monitors somewhere around 24" for 240p material at Line5x?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:00 pm 


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depends on your requirements. If you can live just 1080p resolution (which means that a few lines are cut off with 5x) output, then the Sony OLED PVM and BVM models. 24.5" in size.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:17 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
depends on your requirements. If you can live just 1080p resolution (which means that a few lines are cut off with 5x) output, then the Sony OLED PVM and BVM models. 24.5" in size.


That BVM is crazy expensive but I could probably swing the PVM if I save for awhile. How many lines would I lose? Any other drawbacks compared to a 1600x1200?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:44 pm 


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4px lines each on top and botton (216 visible of 224 rendered).

Desktop sized OLEDs are possibly coming back. More and more high-end notebooks have OLED screens and Asus has a portable 22" unit. Maybe we'll see a 32" 4K OLED down the road.

If you REALLY want get a PVM/BVM OLED, $2000-2500 for the 24.5" models are reasonable. Anything above is too much.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:05 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
4px lines each on top and botton (216 visible of 224 rendered).


If the source is 240 lines I would lose 24 lines total at Line5x?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:41 pm 


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4.5 / 5.0 = 0.9, so 240 -> 216, so yes.

It's worth noting that the OSSC supports 1600x1200 and 1920x1200 output resolutions, so any display that supports that or a higher resolution (1200p, 1440p, 2160p, etc) can display OSSC 5x without any cropping.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:48 pm 


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but any of these are far from "ultimate".


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:50 pm 


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I still resent the industry for having pushed both 1080 and 1440 over 1200 all those years.

We never got more evolved, refined, and larger 1200 monitors we deserved. :cry:
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:05 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
but any of these are far from "ultimate".


I would think a 24" 1920x1200 monitor would be far more "ultimate" for 240p content than a 24" 1920x1080 monitor?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:15 pm 


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I blame the stupidity of 1080i for the 1080p mess.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:17 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
but any of these are far from "ultimate".


I would think a 24" 1920x1200 monitor would be far more "ultimate" for 240p content than a 24" 1920x1080 monitor?


Wouldn't OLED and rolling scan options be a fair trade off for the overscan?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:20 pm 


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At that point, you can just use a 4K OLED and get 5x without cropping...?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:21 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
At that point, you can just use a 4K OLED and get 5x without cropping...?


Sure. How's the motion? :)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:36 pm 


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I feel that OLED - even without rolling scan - is quite superior to LCD because of the instant pixel resonse times, BUT...

of course I know the types of displays that are out there, but shmupsrocks asked for the ULTIMATE around 24" monitor. He didn't ask for a 55" TV.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:42 pm 


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What about the LG 71PY10 ?

It's not a 24" oled ... but a 24-karat gold-plated plasma.

(incl. 600W sound system)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:52 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
I feel that OLED - even without rolling scan - is quite superior to LCD because of the instant pixel resonse times, BUT...

of course I know the types of displays that are out there, but shmupsrocks asked for the ULTIMATE around 24" monitor. He didn't ask for a 55" TV.


What's the latency on those Sony OLED PVM/BVM again? I remember something about 2 frames, but I could be mistaken.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:12 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
At that point, you can just use a 4K OLED and get 5x without cropping...?


Sure. How's the motion? :)


The 4K OLED TVs support BFI on 60Hz inputs for low-persistence, so the motion would probably be close enough to the rolling scan one to not be noticeably worse. If the PVM/BVM OLEDs have 2 frames of lag, then that's a big win for the 4K OLEDs with their 0.8 frames of lag at 60Hz.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:46 pm 


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Quote:
What's the latency on those Sony OLED PVM/BVM again? I remember something about 2 frames, but I could be mistaken.

haven't tested the BVM, but the PVM A250 is slightly under a frame for progressive input. If you engage deinterlacing it increases of course.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:56 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
What's the latency on those Sony OLED PVM/BVM again? I remember something about 2 frames, but I could be mistaken.

haven't tested the BVM, but the PVM A250 is slightly under a frame for progressive input. If you engage deinterlacing it increases of course.


My apologies for prying, here.

Would the Time Sleuth or Leo Bodnar show just under ~34ms total latency?

Or does the rolling scan manage to provide under one frame total latency before the bottom of "scanout" like I expect from a CRT? In that case, the "middle number" would be just under ~17ms

I expect it's about 34ms, but I figured I'd ask. :)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:11 am 


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Back then I didn't have the Time Sleuth yet. The Bodnar unit shows less than 17ms on the middle bar*. I don't recall any difference between rolling scan and flicker free mode. I'll do some Time Sleuth experiments on all three once I find the time.

* On the X300 the middle bar shows 12.x (in Vincent's video). The A250 wasn't THIS low.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:50 pm 



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Xyga wrote:
W800B was a 2014 model so it was fine lag-wise, not W6/W7A&B-fast (6ms) but just 1 frame.
Best TV of the year.
(though the 43" had 3D layer screendoor effect and lacked the good motion plus feature, but larger were fine)

W600B was not part of the 'great' Full-HD series of 2013-2014, it was in a lower-category.


I misspelled it, actually i got the KDL-60W855B, which is the W850B in US. https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/w850b


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:52 pm 



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Would I still lose lines on a 1080 screen if I'm using Line5x in generic mode? I could be wrong but I think that would only happen in optim mode. I love how optim mode looks but from what I understand the aspect ratio is always distorted unless the game's PAR is exactly 1.0, 0.8, or 0.6 when using 320x240, 384x240, or 512x240 optim mode respectively.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:07 pm 


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yes, vertical resolution handling is identical in both modes.


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