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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:05 pm 


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CobraKing wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
what's the best place to report bugs in OSSC fw btw?

this thread? VGP? github issue?


@maxtherabbit - Use the VGP forum for the bugs, both @BuckoA51 and @marqs frequent that forum.

roger that, already posted over there - just wanted to make sure I was on target


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:07 pm 



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My guess is that they'll say "okay, so what?" This is an OPEN SOURCE project. Nobody "stole" anything. Nobody "ripped off anything". The OSSC is open source and free for ANYBODY to produce.

It's a VERY dangerous path to take to say "Anything from a certain country or certain group of people is automatically awful without any testing."

Perhaps the reason we didn't see any pre-built OSSCs from China sellers before is that there weren't any manufacturers willing to spend the time to do the full QA and assembly until now?

I still say that any judgement on this needs to be reserved until some samples have been taken and tested.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:13 pm 



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headlesshobbs wrote:
ASDR wrote:

Dude, what are you talking about, the OSSC is an open source project (it's in the name!) and not something marqs designs for a living. That's like being pissed at the Chinese for making their own Linux distribution. And good on you for still saying "Marqs deserves all the credit for this, every single damn bit", controversial, shocking, but good that somebody has said it. But I guess it's all over now, it was a good run indeed. (WTF...)

I also don't foresee this causing any major issues for VGP. Sure, no EU/US seller will ever be able to compete on price with a Chinese manufacturer and seller, but there are convincing reasons to buy from VGP. You get shipping from the EU (for a few more weeks :D) and don't have customs issues. You get the support of a helpful dude that speaks your language. You get a known level of quality control. You get a 1 year EU warranty and 30 days no-questions-asked return. Especially important with a device like the OSSC that might not work in your setup.


Well that was some of my personal feelings on the matter and I'm glad to actually get that out knowing who did us one of the biggest favors any gamer could ever ask for. I've always known China for stealing and creating bootlegs of licensed and copyrighted materials, so I'm not at all surprised that this has showed up. I know not of what is going on behind the scenes or any under the table dealings, but I pretty much see them as taking away from the community. When I said this was a good run, I meant that there's now going to be a fair number of sales to someone who's only likely to be in it for the quick buck. It may have an impact in some form in the long term and if it could be anything regarding improving the ossc or development on an updated model, it's something I definitely take alert to.

Your analogy on open source and using linux for comparison I can somewhat agree with, but as I said I stand by my personal feelings on this. The OSSC is a project design of and for our community and that's the major difference if there's no support for these projects in our circles. If Marqs is fine with it, well great. But I do see ourselves with a problem that's likely not going to change anytime soon.


Just hope that @marqs made some money for his hard work from the units that were sold via VGP's site. It's a wrap now that the Chinese sites are selling it.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:13 pm 



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Thomago wrote:
Speaking of @BuckoA51 and @marqs ... I would be highly interested in their opinion on the China-OSSC topic.

There are some comments by BuckoA51 in the relevant thread on VGP. I haven't yet seen any comments by marqs.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:05 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:09 pm 


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Literally what is the problem here? The OSSC is released under the GPL 3.0 license. It is explicitly permitted to be used for commercial purposes and Marqs himself has said that he doesn't do these projects to make money. I don't know why anyone is upset about it. VGP has put together their own documentation which they have the rights to and when that is stolen without permission that's a problem, but the software and hardware are free for anyone to produce for profit or otherwise.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:04 pm 


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Problem? on top of the documentation's contents; the identical logo in plain view, as BuckoA51 says.

On ali it says the manufactuer is BitFunx, but it doesn't seem there is anything anywhere on the product, docs and package that says so. On eBay it's 'unbranded' and some of the pictures seem to be that of an original/VGP model.

Even if it's free to make, if your own production is like a carbon copy but doesn't feature anything to distinguish itself from the original or whatever other production (presence of the manufacturer/brand name or p/n) then it's kind of a problem.

EDIT: corrrection the is mention of BitFunx on the manual, had to zoom it.
love the "outdated review" link. :lol:

Sure there is the UPC/EAN but...customers don't really check that.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:13 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Problem? on top of the documentation's contents; the identical logo in plain view, as BuckoA51 says.

On ali it says the manufactuer is BitFunx, but it doesn't seem there is anything anywhere on the product, docs and package that says so. On eBay it's 'unbranded' and some of the pictures seem to be that of an original/VGP model.

Even if it's free to make, if your own production is like a carbon copy but doesn't feature anything to distinguish itself from the original or whatever other production (presence of the manufacturer/brand name or p/n) then it's kind of a problem.

Sure there is the UPC/EAN but...customers don't really check that.


I agree that the logo is a problem. But the hardware that they are selling is Marqs reference design. There is no "original" to distinguish from because VGP uses the standard open source reference hardware design. People who are upset about this seem to be under the impression that VGP's version is their own design in some way but It's not.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:22 pm 


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Meh. No guarantees or customer service with a Chinese knockoff.

You get what you pay for.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:27 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
Meh. No guarantees or customer service with a Chinese knockoff.

You get what you pay for.


Exactly. I think at this point, VGP shouldn't even waste time trying to fight or stop the sale of these 'third party' OSSCs. Emphasize their customer support and the fact that @marqs gets something from the units purchased directly from them and keep it moving.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:29 pm 


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Arthrimus wrote:
But the hardware that they are selling is Marqs reference design. There is no "original" to distinguish from because VGP uses the standard open source reference hardware design. People who are upset about this seem to be under the impression that VGP's version is their own design in some way but It's not.

Hence my "or whatever other production", would there be three, four or five different makers/sellers of the OSSC it's still important that the customer can distiguish them.

Here honestly if I hadn't zoomed the picture of the manual, or vaguely noticed the lack of white paint in the engraved letters, I couldn't have told it apart from a VGP-sold one.

edit: maybe the painted engravings aren't on all versions sold even at VGP, though the eBay item page shows the two, which leads to questions about the potential different nature of the products pictured. As a seller it is also important to use legit pics of the very product you sell. I know this sounds like nitpicking but you don't imagine the issues small details like that can genenerate. I used to buy lots of both branded and generic stuff in large shimpments from China, and we were always asked to be extra careful. At the customer end it's not the end of the world when we're talking cheapo accessories that don't sell thousands of units every day, but when a single unit is worth a hundred and more, well...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:00 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Arthrimus wrote:
But the hardware that they are selling is Marqs reference design. There is no "original" to distinguish from because VGP uses the standard open source reference hardware design. People who are upset about this seem to be under the impression that VGP's version is their own design in some way but It's not.

Hence my "or whatever other production", would there be three, four or five different makers/sellers of the OSSC it's still important that the customer can distiguish them.

Here honestly if I hadn't zoomed the picture of the manual, or vaguely noticed the lack of white paint in the engraved letters, I couldn't have told it apart from a VGP-sold one.

edit: maybe the painted engravings aren't on all versions sold even at VGP, though the eBay item page shows the two, which leads to questions about the potential different nature of the products pictured. As a seller it is also important to use legit pics of the very product you sell. I know this sounds like nitpicking but you don't imagine the issues small details like that can genenerate. I used to buy lots of both branded and generic stuff in large shimpments from China, and we were always asked to be extra careful. At the customer end it's not the end of the world when we're talking cheapo accessories that don't sell thousands of units every day, but when a single unit is worth a hundred and more, well...


Again. There is no distinction to be made between the two manufacturers designs. They are both using the reference design. VGP has placed a sticker on the bottom of their units that show it is one of theirs. As long as the Chinese OSSCs don't say that they are from VGP and don't use their OSSC branding then there is literally no problem.

As noted I am aware that some of these use VGP's own logo which is a problem, but nothing about the hardware being manufactured and sold by these Chinese companies is any different from VGP selling them. They are not knockoffs or clones any more than VGP's are.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:08 pm 


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Again I said nothing about the design of the device, design =/= product, not the same definition. Legally a distinction the customer can see wherever on the product or packaging is required, the only thing here is the ©by BitFunx on the manual, which is a bit thin...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:57 am 


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It's hardly suprising to see Chinese start making these once they see there's demand and some money to be made. Nothing inherently wrong in that, but one potentially sad thing is that if they use lower quality components while making an externally indistinquishable product, then the project is likely to suffer. That was the reason why initially gerbers weren't freely published until production and reputation were well established.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:01 pm 



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Anyone knows how OSSC fairs with HP 27XW please? Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:27 pm 



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Hello world


I have an OSSC with a 42w650a Sony HDTV. My HDTv accept only 480p from OSSC. CPS1, 2 & System 16B run well but CPS3 & MVS slot black screen. I have this slot MVS:

Image

Somone know how to run it please?

THX


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:31 pm 



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Good evening friends.
My retro computer has 300 visible lines. Using the increase in the value of the V.Active parameter, I was able to achieve a display of 297 lines. Setting the values 298-300 changes nothing and 3 lines of the image are lost. What can be done?

The display shows the following information:
AV1: RGBS 312p
15.62kHz 50.08Hz

Increasing V.Active has an effect up to 297 inclusive. Setting 298-300 does not change anything, so the 3 lines of the image are still lost. Lx4 mode on my monitor does not work.
To improve image clarity, I tried changing Sampling opt> Advanced timing tweaker> H.samplerate in increments of 1, but I couldn’t get such perfect clarity as in Lx5 1920×1080 mode.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:49 am 



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The result of further testing OSSC + retrocomputer Soyuz-Neon. Immediately make a reservation: the experiments showed that in the existing software of this computer, all 300 lines are actively used for graphics !!!

I have the usual 22-inch widescreen Dell 1920*1080, on which I began to conduct experiments.
Having tried all the combinations of parameters, I selected the optimal (V.Active = 297, V.backporch = 6, V.synclen = 4) at which the topmost (first) line of the Soyuz-Neon computer image coincides with the top line of the monitor matrix, and the screen displays 297 lines of the original image of the computer Soyuz-Neon: https://ibb.co/W5KCw04
At the same time, in the menu of the monitor, the current resolution is displayed as 710x594. Accordingly, the 3 lower lines of the original signal are lost, and when trying to increase V.Active = 297 -> 298 and higher, the image disappears for good, because the monitor cannot enter this mode.

Earlier, as an alternative to a PVM TV, I purchased a Sony LMD-1510W monitor, which turned up useless in terms of trying to connect to it the RGBS signal of any retro console. Unexpectedly, the HDMI input of this monitor opened up unprecedented multi-format capabilities, starting with the fact that the HDMI output of the OSSC, brought to it, was recognized as 576i and ending with the fact that the video stream of 301 lines, processed inside OSSC using a 3x multiplier, was recognized on my monitor as the resolution 1NNNx903 - This is despite the fact that the limit resolution of the monitor is 1366x768. NNN in this case changes arbitrarily in direct proportion to the value of the parameter H.samplerate set in OSSC, and, according to my observations, H.samplerate does not significantly affect the final result. For Lx3 mode, the output format was 16: 9, which was interpreted by the multiplier as 1280x288, where 301 multiplied by 3 was used as 288 lines.
Thus, by setting the parameters (V.Active = 301, V.backporch = 6, V.synclen = 4) + Lx3 (16:9) I received all 300 lines of the Soyuz-Neon computer image on the Sony LMD-1510W monitor: https://ibb.co/84KKK4N

Findings:
1). OSSC is a very, very interesting product, I hope the firmware will still be actively developed.
2). Since OSSC, unlike framemeister, is a multiplier, not a scaler, in order to provide better image clarity, you need to use the highest multiplication factor (Lx3, Lx4, Lx5). Accordingly, to use at least Lx4 mode, you will need a monitor that can display 1200 lines vertically. When complying with the FullHD / IPS criteria, the cheapest option is Iiyama ProLite XU2395WSU-1
3). The selected monitor should be as flexible as possible in terms of multi-format signal, otherwise it simply does not recognize most of the modes issued by OSSC.

Resume: I leave to myself OSSC, because besides the framemeister, this is the only decent and versatile upscaler that can also be bought 2 times cheaper.

My questions:
- Is there complete documentation for OSSC, which describes the purpose of each parameter, as well as a list of supported output resolutions for each of the Lx2 .. Lx5 multipliers?
- What affects the parameter H.samplerate and on the basis of which is the value calculated in which it should be set?
- What monitor needs to be purchased so that 300 lines of the original image fit on it when using the Lx5 multiplier? The fact is that I have enough of the image clarity that the Lx4 mode gives.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:08 pm 


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What monitor needs to be purchased so that 300 lines of the original image fit on it when using the Lx5 multiplier?

for a 300-line input signal that's probably above the OSSC's output capacity. The OSSC output should max out at something like 1200 lines (which is the standard for 240p input signals). 1500 lines would be above the max bandwith for single link DVI/HDMI.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:29 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
What monitor needs to be purchased so that 300 lines of the original image fit on it when using the Lx5 multiplier?

for a 300-line input signal that's probably above the OSSC's output capacity. The OSSC output should max out at something like 1200 lines (which is the standard for 240p input signals). 1500 lines would be above the max bandwith for single link DVI/HDMI.


Not in this case actually, because there are 312 input lines just like standard PAL 288p. So the OSSC can handle it (the pixel clock will not be higher than the usual case of Lx5 PAL 1080/1200p50Hz output), question though is how many monitors would accept a 1920x1500 50Hz resolution...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:36 pm 


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marqs wrote:
Even 4k capable FPGAs cost a lot. Also, design tools for these higher-end FPGAs are not typically free but cost thousands of dollars, and HDMI IP needed for outputting signal directly from FPGA transceivers can easily cost the same amount.


Out of curiousity, how many thousands? Is this the most blocking issue for potential pursuit of OSSC 4K?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:44 pm 


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Never tried 5x PAL, but wouldn't this limit the output to 1200 active lines as well (similar to 4x in NTSC, so you basically get overscan), so the limit might not only be the bandwith, but also the number of active lines.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:11 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Never tried 5x PAL, but wouldn't this limit the output to 1200 active lines as well (similar to 4x in NTSC, so you basically get overscan), so the limit might not only be the bandwith, but also the number of active lines.

It’s only in 1920x1080 that v.active is automatically adjusted to 1080, in the 1200p modes you are free to set any v.active as long as you allow for a few lines for backporch, sync & frontporch (I don’t know the absolute minimum for the blanking parameters, but probably only 2-3 for each if you have a super flexible monitor).
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:26 pm 


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Somewhat OSSC related, maybe someone here has the knowledge I seek...

I was wondering if anyone has tested any of the external capture cards with “PC Free” capabilities (direct record to SD card or USB thumb drive) and if they work with the OSSC’s HDMI output?

I’ve already tried and tested the original Avermedia Live Gamer Portable, and while it will pick up the OSSC's output when plugged into a PC/laptop (used in line 2X and 3X modes from 240p sources) it will not record to the SD card in it’s PC free mode…it gets the flashing light of doom aka no signal/error msg’s.

I work at an arcade, and we are looking to direct capture old arcade games without the need to have a PC/laptop left on the floor. It is both expensive to have a PC for every game we want to record, but it’s also at risk of bring stolen. If we can build an enclosure for an OSSC, external capture device and a screen so you can see the output, I think it would work great!

Any info would be appreciated.


Last edited by GGA_HAN on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:47 pm 


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DirkSwizzler wrote:
Out of curiousity, how many thousands? Is this the most blocking issue for potential pursuit of OSSC 4K?


Is an OSSC 4K actually something that terribly interesting? I can't imagine it'll look much different than the 960/1200p output from the current OSSC upscaled to 4k. I mean we're literally talking about smaller-than-a-pixel-of-a-1080p-panel type of difference here. I think there are far more impactful things to add/improve that would not require any kind of bleeding edge FPGA tech to realize.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:13 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
DirkSwizzler wrote:
Out of curiousity, how many thousands? Is this the most blocking issue for potential pursuit of OSSC 4K?


Is an OSSC 4K actually something that terribly interesting? I can't imagine it'll look much different than the 960/1200p output from the current OSSC upscaled to 4k. I mean we're literally talking about smaller-than-a-pixel-of-a-1080p-panel type of difference here. I think there are far more impactful things to add/improve that would not require any kind of bleeding edge FPGA tech to realize.


4K just for the sake of 4k is mildly interesting if it can help bypass the need for the TV scaler adding lag. 480p 5x would be nice using a bit of cutoff. 240p 9x would be stellar.
And lets not forget that generic mode upscaling can throw more samples at the problem as horizontal pixels increase. So 240p 9x would be clearer in generic mode than 240p 3x which is then upscaled again by the tv.

What's I'm more interested in is 4K not missing the boat if there is an OSSC 2. Because, assuming there will be an OSSC 2 in the future, the time until OSSC 3 is much longer
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Last edited by DirkSwizzler on Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:35 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
DirkSwizzler wrote:
Out of curiousity, how many thousands? Is this the most blocking issue for potential pursuit of OSSC 4K?


Is an OSSC 4K actually something that terribly interesting? I can't imagine it'll look much different than the 960/1200p output from the current OSSC upscaled to 4k. I mean we're literally talking about smaller-than-a-pixel-of-a-1080p-panel type of difference here. I think there are far more impactful things to add/improve that would not require any kind of bleeding edge FPGA tech to realize.

I don't find 4k anything terribly interesting TBH. I don't even have a 4k TV nor do I plan to get one as long as good condition, quailty 1080p plasma sets are still available on the secondary market.

I've spent plenty of time looking at 4k sets, and still don't care to own one. The content still barely exists, and even when it does, meh. The quality difference is underwhelming.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:55 pm 


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I don't think 4k is useless. Virtually every AAA game released on the PS4 Pro / XBox One X supports a resolution >1080p and quite a few visually stunning games like the latest Forza and Red Dead Redemption 2 even run in native 4k. There's plenty of worthwhile content. And forgoing 4k generally also means forgoing HDR. So I'm not opposed at all to the format, I just question the value for a device that 99% of the time takes a 240p/480i/480p input. Like, how much sharper can this Lego block sized pixels possibly get...

I can see the benefit of more oversampling for not pixel-perfect digitization, but couldn't a device like the OSSC just sample the horizontal as much as it wants while still only running in 3-5x mode?

On the output side I'd be most interested in not missing the other features of HDMI 2.1. The standard features arbitrary/variable refresh rate, activation of low-latency mode by the source and support for instant resolution switching. That seems like it would make displays implementing the full spec much more compatible with the kind of output the OSSC provides. To me it doesn't look like any of these features would even require anything from the FPGA, just the HDMI transmitter chip would have to be upgraded with one that could support the new functionality.

edit:

Also since you're thinking long-term, it could very well be that 1080p->4k upscaling gets worse as time goes on. Just like analog inputs got worse over time. Right now, where the majority of content is not in 4k, upscaling is a high priority item. In 5 years that might not be the case and the average TV buyer might not care anymore that their now ancient PS4 has a ton of lag or their 1080p BluRays look bad.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:12 am 


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At the risk of going off on a tangent, I am not a fan of 4K generally. In particular I object to 4K being prioritized over framerate. I do own a 4K TV, and 1080p60 is still a far superior experience to 4K30 for me. I don't think consoles have the horsepower to be pushing that many pixels.

I am also in the camp that doesn't really see the benefit in a 4K OSSC. It was my understanding that, in game mode at least, latency is basically the same on TVs whether they receive native resolution or not.. and the 5X output of the OSSC is incredibly sharp even up close on a 4K TV.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:26 am 


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Kez wrote:
At the risk of going off on a tangent, I am not a fan of 4K generally. In particular I object to 4K being prioritized over framerate. I do own a 4K TV, and 1080p60 is still a far superior experience to 4K30 for me. I don't think consoles have the horsepower to be pushing that many pixels.


I think even if you were going for image quality over framerate, it is questionable if higher resolution is the best bang for the buck. I'd personally rather 400% the effort per-pixel than 4k.


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