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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:07 am 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
field rendering is going to be a part of those PS2 games (the ones that employ it anyway) until the end of time, it's the way they are written


Yeah, no GSM is going to fix Sega Rally on PS2 :/


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:15 am 


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marqs wrote:
Also, design tools for these higher-end FPGAs are not typically free but cost thousands of dollars, and HDMI IP needed for outputting signal directly from FPGA transceivers can easily cost the same amount.


So many things about the software stack situation around FPGAs always seemed like a downer and kept me away from them. Over the last 10, 15 years or so it seems most companies selling a hardware or software platform have gone the route of making their development tools, SDK, libraries etc. either outright open source, free or at least cheaply available. NVIDIA might charge you five figures for a high-end data center GPU, but at least you get most tools and libraries for it free of charge. Ah well, guess FPGA companies will double dip for a while longer.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:59 am 


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ASDR wrote:
marqs wrote:
Also, design tools for these higher-end FPGAs are not typically free but cost thousands of dollars, and HDMI IP needed for outputting signal directly from FPGA transceivers can easily cost the same amount.


So many things about the software stack situation around FPGAs always seemed like a downer and kept me away from them. Over the last 10, 15 years or so it seems most companies selling a hardware or software platform have gone the route of making their development tools, SDK, libraries etc. either outright open source, free or at least cheaply available. NVIDIA might charge you five figures for a high-end data center GPU, but at least you get most tools and libraries for it free of charge. Ah well, guess FPGA companies will double dip for a while longer.
And that's still peanuts compared to what ASIC design tools cost (the fact that they're full of legacy code and horrible to use makes the gap even worse). The HW design industy in general seems a bit more inward-looking than its SW counterpart so there hasn't been similar push to make development tools usable and widely available. Of course there's some realities such that HW development is much more expensive (even if the tools were free), but forcing developers pay a lot for mediocore-quality tools isn't making things any better.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:09 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
I don't see it. If a high quality deinterlacer requires information from a previous frame (per-pixel weaving), that part of the data, that will be output in your current frame, is old.

I don't think this is a useful metric. Consider an alternate viewpoint:

The job of a deinterlacer is to take an incomplete picture with every second line missing and to figure out a good-looking approximation for this missing data. The simplest approach would be to say "I have no idea" and fill those areas with a constand value, e.g. black. The next step up would be to treat it as a scaling problem, e.g. using nearest neighbour (copy the previous line) or bilinear interpolation between the two adjacent lines - basically bob deinterlacing. If you instead assume that the picture does not change (much) from the previous frame, then your guess would be to use the corresponding line from the previous field (weave). Motion-adaptive is of course a combination of both, using some kind of metric to choose between reconstructions from past, current or even future fields(*).

However, even if such a deinterlacer chooses to use pixels copied from a previous field, it does so because it has determined that these pixels are most similar to the ones that would be displayed in their place if the original source was progressive instead of interlaced. Using your "nitpick-metric" these pixels have a lag of one field (or more), but the deinterlacer only chose to do so because it determined that the pixels at this particular location have not changed from the time the old pixels were shown.

Or let's take a hypothetical advanced deinterlacer that can track moving objects across the frame and that can also detect fades: It could output reconstructed pixels that are mathematically based on a previous field, but do not actually exist in that field (because of the fade) and the original pixels are located in a completely different position (because of motion tracking). Do these pixels have a "lag value" at all?

(*) requires a crystal ball circuit or an increased base lag in a practical implementation


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:17 am 


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RocketBelt wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:
I always thought that “burn in” was permanent and “image retention” was temporary. Maybe I’m wrong? :)

I've seen bob deinrerlacing cause image retention on my IPS tv after just a few minutes.
Although it is temporary, you certainly sweat it for a few hours because the panel looks completely broken until the effect has faded away. Seriously, first time it happened I thought the tv was toast. By lunchtime the next day it had gone though.

Anyway the ossc has an interlace pass-through mode, which totally solves the issue.


Does bob flicker thrash any of the OLED panels? I haven't been able to find any information about how they interact, I'm too scared to try it myself :D.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:20 pm 


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No. OLED burn-in is caused by static persistent images.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:27 am 



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So I saw the first post that said post specific OSSC questions at the other forum, so I did:

https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... post-25203

But it looks like the OSSC just won't be able to make System 24 work on my HDTV, so the question is:

Is there an OSSC 2 coming that might have Frameister type features, like scaling?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:47 am 


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XtraSmiley wrote:
So I saw the first post that said post specific OSSC questions at the other forum, so I did:

https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... post-25203

But it looks like the OSSC just won't be able to make System 24 work on my HDTV, so the question is:

Is there an OSSC 2 coming that might have Frameister type features, like scaling?


I don't think anybody is working on it, but yeah, an OSSC 2 with some DRAM for a framebuffer would be the greatest thing since sliced bread :D Universal compatibility, instant 240p/480i transitions, arbitrary shift&zoom, YokoTate rotation, high-quality deinterlacing, taking screenshots and probably a million other things I can't think of right now. But since I don't speak FPGA the only measly thing I could contribute to such a project would be a 16MB stick of EDO RAM. That ought to be enough for double buffering 1080p, right? :/

Some people at VGP have recommended a second video processor to do frame rate conversion etc. I loosely follow these discussions, but from my impressions all these devices have some sort of issue. Like, they don't work with the (S)NES, or they can't take >2x, or they add lag, or ringing or don't handle audio or whatever. Seems like there is no perfectly compatible, affordable & in-production partner for the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:21 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
Some people at VGP have recommended a second video processor to do frame rate conversion etc. I loosely follow these discussions, but from my impressions all these devices have some sort of issue. Like, they don't work with the (S)NES, or they can't take >2x, or they add lag, or ringing or don't handle audio or whatever. Seems like there is no perfectly compatible, affordable & in-production partner for the OSSC.

Every video processor that needs to buffer the image for things like framerate conversion is going to add even just a touch of a lag, because it needs to buffer and hold the frame so it can be output at the correct interval.

I'd be all for a more expensive, second-generation OSSC 2 with a bit more capability, so I don't need additional video processors, like the DSC 301 HD or the Extron RGB interfaces, that I've picked up over the past couple years.

Another approach would be designing an aftermarket, [retro-]gamer-focused, FPGA-based LCD control board (or probably a whole display) that would be flexible enough to do all the things we need the display to do that the mass manufacturers aren't building into their products. It would be super cool to have a reasonably readily-available, affordable, exceptionally-low-input-lag TV with all of the analogue and digital video and audio inputs and loop outputs we want; modern amenities like ARC, HDMI-CEC, and 4K; and now-missing amenities like 3D (For those 3D games on the PS3 and Xbox 360).

That would also give us a platform for experimentation. I'd particularly like to know/see if it's possible to make a flat panel TV compatible with light guns by minimizing input lag as much as possible and simulating the electron beam of a CRT (writing line by line, left to right, with a quick fade to black); but I honestly have no idea if these panels are capable of the fine, rapid pixel control needed for that.

Vector display simulation would be cool, too. 65" Vectrex or Star Wars, anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:50 pm 


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To get back to XtraSmiley's problem: I find it weird that a display can't display 768p58 when it has no problems with other vintage systems (also not running at a straight 60Hz) running through the OSSC. If the horizontal timing specs are a problem (like active area vs. backporch), these can be tweaked on the OSSC. Output timings of other 24khz boards (like Model 2/3 should be close enough and these are confirmed working through the OSSC and with most displays).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:12 pm 


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Just wanted to share something interesting:

Shadow of the Colossus (PAL) in its native progressive mode:

Image

Shadow of the Colossus (PAL) in NTSC (480i) mode with 480p forced by GS Mode Selector and the OSSC set to H_active = 576 and H_backporch = 128:

Image

(Don't mind the FOV difference - the FOV changes as soon as one activates the game's native progressive mode.)

In native progressive mode, the game applies somewhat akin to a flicker filter, thereby turning everything into an unsharp mush. Forcing 480p via GS Mode Selector gets rid of that. Haven't tested yet if this yields equally great results in other games.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:59 am 


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Thomago wrote:
Just wanted to share something interesting:
In native progressive mode, the game applies somewhat akin to a flicker filter, thereby turning everything into an unsharp mush. Forcing 480p via GS Mode Selector gets rid of that. Haven't tested yet if this yields equally great results in other games.


Ohhh. I always wondered why switching to progressive doesn't seem to do that much in SotC. It's amazing how many games work in 480p through GSM. Since this is the shmups forum, absolutely try DDP:DOJ and Gradius V in 480p if you haven't already!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:51 pm 


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I might add that for the longest time I deemed SotC and other games with lower-than-standard internal resolutions as practically non-working with GS Mode Selector, cause, after all, who would want to play a horizontally squished game?
Then I came to the realization that the OSSC's advanced resolution settings and my monitor's ability to force any input into a 4:3 output solves this and well ... I'm really happy with that.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:04 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
Ohhh. I always wondered why switching to progressive doesn't seem to do that much in SotC. It's amazing how many games work in 480p through GSM. Since this is the shmups forum, absolutely try DDP:DOJ and Gradius V in 480p if you haven't already!


I thought there were TONS which don't work? Especially on any game with any type of FMV on it? (or was it only a particular type of video?) . -- like so much so some people made chopped-down versions of games so they wouldn't freeze? Is there a compatibility list?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:47 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
ASDR wrote:
Ohhh. I always wondered why switching to progressive doesn't seem to do that much in SotC. It's amazing how many games work in 480p through GSM. Since this is the shmups forum, absolutely try DDP:DOJ and Gradius V in 480p if you haven't already!


I thought there were TONS which don't work? Especially on any game with any type of FMV on it? (or was it only a particular type of video?) . -- like so much so some people made chopped-down versions of games so they wouldn't freeze? Is there a compatibility list?


Yeah, there are many games that don't work, but still a very high number is internally rendering in full progressive and just never bothered to add the option to actually output it. I think especially earlier titles are often using field rendering, there is no 480p framebuffer to scan out. It would also be hard to modify the game after the fact to use a full progressive framebuffer. The PS2 only has 4MB of video memory, it's unlikely there's just a fair amount of that sitting around unused.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:37 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
It would also be hard to modify the game after the fact to use a full progressive framebuffer. The PS2 only has 4MB of video memory, it's unlikely there's just a fair amount of that sitting around unused.


I think the main problem is rendering power more than memory size. A 640x480x24bit framebuffer is "only" 900KB.
Games that use field rendering often runs at 60fps but only at half the resolution as an optimization, so every field is a different moment in time, with the consequences of being a nightmare to deinterlace (and our earlier conversation :) )
But you're right by saying that this memory pool is surely fully used.

Gamecube has even less memory available directly by the GPU (1MB of framebuffer and 2MB of texture cache) and most of its library is compatible with progressive scan.
DF Retro did a good description of the "problem" in one of their video: Sony bet on their field rendering technique with the PS2, and it wasn't that stupid because it really works well on a CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:59 pm 


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Joelepain wrote:
I think the main problem is rendering power more than memory size. A 640x480x24bit framebuffer is "only" 900KB.
Games that use field rendering often runs at 60fps but only at half the resolution as an optimization, so every field is a different moment in time, with the consequences of being a nightmare to deinterlace (and our earlier conversation :) )

Gamecube has ever less memory available directly by the GPU (1MB of framebuffer and 2MB of texture cache) and most of its library is compatible with progressive scan.
DF Retro did a good description of the "problem" in one of their video: Sony bet on their field rendering technique with the PS2, and it wasn't that stupid because it really works well on a CRT.


Sure, you'd need twice the memory and twice the fillrate / bandwidth. It's unlikely all of that was just left untapped and is available to be unlocked with a few tweaks from GSM :/

btw, has there been much progress on GSM in the last two years or so? Since the OSSC (and my TV...) has rather weak deinterlacing I'm always happy to force my PS2 games to 480p or 240p, but I wonder if it might make sense to update to a newer version. The issue for me is anything related to FMCB/OPL/GSM is such an impenetrable rats nest of forums with 100 sticky threads with 100 pages each, kind of impossible to figure out if you aren't living that stuff day in day out. I set all of this up a few years ago with some package that had FMCB including OPL which had some build of GSM included. Is there any benefit for OSSC users to update to a newer version? Any neat features?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:26 pm 


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There isn't anything to update to since 2014, so ...


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:38 pm 


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Thomago wrote:
There isn't anything to update to since 2014, so ...


Ok, thanks! Guess I'll give SotC in GSM forced 480p with lovely 480pX2 and Upsample2X another shot then :D


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:47 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
Yeah, there are many games that don't work, but still a very high number is internally rendering in full progressive and just never bothered to add the option to actually output it.


I don't have a crazy amount of PS2 games (36 total), but just looked at the GSM compatibility list on psx-scene.com (think that's the most up to date) and only three of mine seem like they can be forced and play correctly in 480p: Final Fantasy X, Half-Life, Gran Turismo 3. Might try it out, but probably not since i don't play those game much anymore.

...back to trying to find a better 480i deinterlacer (still think the XRGB-mini stinks at this...even through it's supposed to be the best...just think that might be as good as it gets with 480i - still playing with it though).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:22 pm 


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Quote:
still think the XRGB-mini stinks at this

how's that possible? I mean, for most my systems I'm using an OSSC instead, but I'm over (and over and over) amazed whenever I see 480i running on the FM to this very day. Hardly anything else comes close. There are better deinterlacers for certain kinds of 480i (some field rendered content and 480i titles were supposed to be 240p instead), but for anything in true 480i the FM simply outclasses everything else. Just never let temptation trick you into using game mode on the FM. Its single field deinterlacing looks horrible.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:58 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
still think the XRGB-mini stinks at this

how's that possible? I mean, for most my systems I'm using an OSSC instead, but I'm over (and over and over) amazed whenever I see 480i running on the FM to this very day. Hardly anything else comes close. There are better deinterlacers for certain kinds of 480i (some field rendered content and 480i titles were supposed to be 240p instead), but for anything in true 480i the FM simply outclasses everything else. Just never let temptation trick you into using game mode on the FM. Its single field deinterlacing looks horrible.


I know this should probably be on the FM thread, but care to give me a quick tutorial of the best settings for 480i on the PS2 (over RGBS SCART)? I've been using the newest (maybe 1 version back) profiles to ill effect on the FM. Don't think I turned on game mode (don't even know where that is in the menu) - but I can check. Maybe reset the FM's settings and re-load the profiles to make sure I didn't mess anything else up (will have to google how to do that)

Maybe a month ago I was trying a new game, Red Star, because it does 480i and 480p (was using RGsB for this), and I swear that my TV, by itself (passthrough from the OSSC), was giving me a better picture with 480i than the FM was... (or, just like how I'm picky with 480p, I'm probably the same with 480i and it'll just never look as good as I want it to – I will say at least that 240p is always great looking!).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:03 am 


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I never really liked the Framemeister due to its numerous probems associated with digitalizing analog signals, but its deinterlacing capabilities ... I liked these very much! Especially its cadance detection capabilities, which came in very handy with 25/30 fps games.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:24 am 


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Is it possible to get a 4:3 image using the OSSC for consoles such as SNES/Megadrive/NES or is it strictly limited to line doubling/tripling/etc...? Is there no way to produce a 960x720 image padded to 1280x720? Just asking in case there is some option I'm unaware of. I'm assuming this is meant to be done via the TV?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:36 am 


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Your standard output will always be 1280x720p in 3x mode. To adjust the aspect ratio of the active image area you can adjust the Line3x mode settings and either set it generic 4:3 or adjust one of the optimized modes (depending on the input resolution of your source). For 256px wide sources (eg SNES) you can choose 3x or 4x, one beinger narrower and the other being wider than 4:3.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:50 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
Your standard output will always be 1280x720p in 3x mode. To adjust the aspect ratio of the active image area you can adjust the Line3x mode settings and either set it generic 4:3 or adjust one of the optimized modes (depending on the input resolution of your source). For 256px wide sources (eg SNES) you can choose 3x or 4x, one beinger narrower and the other being wider than 4:3.


So, no.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:29 am 


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Even I advise Framemeister for interlace content and I sell OSSCs :)
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Please check the XRGB Wiki before posting about the OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:45 am 


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How many people here are actually running a OSSC->FM setup for deinterlacing, compatibility and I guess fine control over zoom&shift? Guess that basically gets you everything you might want apart from fast 240p/480i transitions? Downsides?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:00 pm 



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Hi from France,

I just bought an OSSC and I’m pretty much new in the Scaler/line doubler world. I’ve been looking for a fix to my problem but I can’t find one so I must be missing something important.

I’m using the OSSC on a 27″ Samsung CFG70 monitor from 2016 and on a Panasonic TX-PF50G30 plasma from 2011. Only 2x mode works on the panasonic but all modes are functional on the Samsung. The problem I have is that scanlines aren’t properly alined on both screens, in all modes.

The only thing that kind of works is to descrease V active from 288 to 270 for PAL material, and from 240 to 216 on NTSC. On my monitor it zooms in the image until everything looks even. It works ok for 50hz but in 60hz the image ends up cropped on top and bottom as it would be in 5x mode, because I need to zoom in too much to get proper alignement. With the Panasonic zoom doesn’t work and it just acts like the vertical mask function, covering the image.

This happends with both horizontal scanlines and atlernate scanlines that I like to use for 480i games.

I don’t know if the problem is my monitor and TV, I tried on two other screen and the exact same problem appears. I can’t find people having the same issue so maybe I’m looking for the wrong keywords over the internet…

Thanks to anybody that could help me. If it can help here is a photo from my Playstation 2 with V active set to 288 then 270.

https://imgur.com/a/Nt1BK0A


Last edited by SlemuolbymaS on Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:28 pm 



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Input lag would be the big one.


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