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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:54 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
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ASDR wrote:
Where doesn’t this hold true? The fact that this is even an option makes me think marqs found at least one case where this rule was violated.

(Also why isn’t component just RGsB in the first place. I guess you could then still get things like the gamma and color space wrong anyway)


Yeah I just noticed this with the Wii VC nes games and I've had to go all over the place trying to configure a correct color profile. Do any 240p games or systems take advantage of the 709 spec?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:14 pm 


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I wouldn't be surprised if we find more cases where it's wrong, perhaps with the often somewhat janky >480p support on PS2/OGXB.

In any case, having an Auto option seems like a very sensible feature to request. The OSSC already switches other settings like the AV1+2 LPF based on resolution and this change wouldn't touch the FPGA at all. Can't imagine it's more than a few lines of C code and the biggest work is probably updating the docs & the settings app :D Might be worth putting this on the OSSC feature request forum over @ VGP.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:30 pm 



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I'm in the market for a Hanzo, Kuro or Toro for my DC and I'm just wondering do you folks prefer the OSSC's own simulated scanlines or are the ones on the Kuro and Toro vastly better?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:33 pm 


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Right now the OSSC only support scanlines that match the input resolution. Meaning that you will always get 480 scanlines on DC games even if those games linedoubled 240p games, so it doesn’t look too good. Hopefully this will be adressed in a future firmware update :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:20 pm 



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Martinov wrote:
I'm in the market for a Hanzo, Kuro or Toro for my DC and I'm just wondering do you folks prefer the OSSC's own simulated scanlines or are the ones on the Kuro and Toro vastly better?

I personally don't use the scanline feature on my Toro (nor my OSSC for that matter). I mainly bought the Toro for the SCART output (easier/cheaper to connect to my OSSC going SCART->SCART instead of VGA+TRS->SCART); however, when I do bother to enable scanlines, I'd go with the OSSC's because it's easier to toggle, and it supports the better-looking hybrid scanlines.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:35 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
how feasible would it be to implement an option for auto switching of YPbPr color space based on resolution in the next version update?


I'm still confused by this. So I get that generally SDTV YPbPr uses the Rec. 601 conversion matrix and HDTV uses Rec. 709. But what exactly is SD/HD? So a GC over component is SD in 480i and HD in 480p? Or is the GC just always SD? Would a 360 switch to Rec. 601 when set to output 480p over component? What about an OG Xbox, does it depend on if a game is 480p or outputs 720p/1080i? How about a PS2 in a game like GT4 that switches between 480i and 480p/1080i, will that also switch color space based on the resolution?

If it's really 100% mechanical I'd love to have an auto option so I can finally forget about this :D

As mentioned, anything 720p+ should be BT.709/sRGB, but it would be interesting to benchmark various systems to see how they handle color space across resolutions. Things get fun around 31 khz as 480p DTV should be BT.601 and VGA should be sRGB. Interestingly, the ITU also says that 720p50 can be either BT.601 or BT.709, but 720p60 is always BT.709 (see ITU-R BT.2022 for details). 1080i/p is always supposed to be BT.709.

If you really want to get into the weeds, NTSC-U (D65), NTSC-J (D93), PAL/SECAM, and BT.709/sRGB should arguably be discrete options for the color primaries, along with BT.1886, gamma 2.2, and gamma 2.4 for the OETF.

Decent breakdown for the older stuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_space


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:44 pm 


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I don't like scanlines on 480p, but you do have the option to line double 480p to 960p and apply the scanlines afterwards. The lines are technically "correct".

You might even be able to do it for 600p. I never bothered to try it. I didn't constantly notice the gaps between the lines at 800x600 playing Quake or Elder Scrolls.

We're out of luck for 768p scanlines, but who cares? I didn't notice the gaps between the lines when I played Half Life and Ultima IX.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:01 pm 


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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
As mentioned, anything 720p+ should be BT.709/sRGB, but it would be interesting to benchmark various systems to see how they handle color space across resolutions. Things get fun around 31 khz as 480p DTV should be BT.601 and VGA should be sRGB. Interestingly, the ITU also says that 720p50 can be either BT.601 or BT.709, but 720p60 is always BT.709 (see ITU-R BT.2022 for details). 1080i/p is always supposed to be BT.709.

If you really want to get into the weeds, NTSC-U (D65), NTSC-J (D93), PAL/SECAM, and BT.709/sRGB should arguably be discrete options for the color primaries, along with BT.1886, gamma 2.2, and gamma 2.4 for the OETF.

Decent breakdown for the older stuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_space


This is bringing back bad memories :D I don't know much about color in TV and especially analog signals, but I've worked on color management, tone mapping, etc. for physically based rendering and such. You know what, I think none of this really matters to me, in the end. Nothing about my TV is calibrated, I guess I set the color space to sRGB at some point, the 'Gamma' setting is on 'High' because that seems to make gray ramps more perceptually linear, I think I have some kind of color enhancer set to low because the sky in Sega Rally looks more blue then and if you hacked into my OSSC and changed the color space setting I probably wouldn't even notice that the Ferrari in Outrun is now a different kind of red.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:59 am 



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Konsolkongen wrote:
Right now the OSSC only support scanlines that match the input resolution. Meaning that you will always get 480 scanlines on DC games even if those games linedoubled 240p games, so it doesn’t look too good. Hopefully this will be adressed in a future firmware update :)


Since it's vga, an slg before 480px2 does such a wonderful job of retaining some amazing quality, but I fear there's no workaround for YUV sources and that's a MAJOR shame considering how many ports are on this format.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:16 pm 



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Hi folks,

I have an LG B6 which works really well with the OSSC. However while X5 mode works, the image aspect ratio isn’t correct. It looks slightly off while still being roughly 4:3.

I’m using the 1600*1200 mode which as far as I know should be correct unlike the 1080p mode.

Does anyone know of a way to tweak the timings to get it correct?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:02 pm 


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Has anyone got a Viewsonic VX3211-4K that they are using with the OSSC? The previous VX3211 1080p model is well regarded apart from screen burn in with interlaced bob signals. I wondered if the 4K was just as good and ran all modes up to 5x lines with the added pixel density of 4K?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:03 pm 


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My current monitor is a 27” Iiyama but, I can only use hdmi up to line X4 in 1080p since only DisplayPort support utilises the full res! :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:31 am 


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Initial-d wrote:
Has anyone got a Viewsonic VX3211-4K that they are using with the OSSC? The previous VX3211 1080p model is well regarded apart from screen burn in with interlaced bob signals. I wondered if the 4K was just as good and ran all modes up to 5x lines with the added pixel density of 4K?

To know wich ViewSonic monitors have that 'hidden' freesync-like ability to handle many off-60Hz rates - which is probably the reason why they work so well for the OSSC and CRT Emudriver - go to their website, browse products and find the downloads area of each, get the User Guides and read down to the specs chapter where the supported resolutions are listed, if you see refreshes down to 56Hz, that's the indicator it actually handles pretty much everything from 50Hz to 75Hz.
(maybe not at all resolutions idk for sure, but for instance my VX3211 handles everything 1080p@50~75Hz)

IIRC when I checked VX3211-4K-mhd and VP3268-4K do not list the 56Hz indicator.
While the 43" VX4380-4K does (their only 4K that do)

Apparently A LOT of ViewSonic monitors are like the VX3211 and therefore good for the OSSC and CRT Emudriver.

Regarding intense flickering-induced screen burn it's not the VX3211 only, these days it is almost all IPS panel displays period (IPS, PLS) therefore the majority of them can't handle the OSSC's bob deinterlacing mode for longer than a very few consecutive minutes.
If you need that mode you have to go for a display with a VA panel (VA, MVA), unfortunately though ViewSonic don't have a 4K VA with the freesync-like ability...
...rather they have a VA, the VX3211-4K-mhd, featuring actual FreeSync.

Does that mean it supports the OSSC as well as the other ViewSonics featuring the freesync ersatz though ? THAT IS NOT CERTAIN.
FreeSync, G-Sync, or HDMI VRR featured on a display are in no way indications that external source's refreshes will be handled right/natively.

Your problem is that you want 4K, VA, and ViewSonic's great OSSC support, but seeing their catalog you can't have all three together, there's one of these you'll have to give up on.

Personally I gave up on the OSSC's bob deinterlacing mode period, interlaced content is not at all the OSSC's speciality anyway, and I don't want to limit my choices for displays to VA panels exclusively.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:14 pm 


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Thanks Xyga for the detailed reply. I checked the Viewsonic site, but the manuals don’t appear to be accurate, as the 1080p model is listed as having a TFT screen and only 60hz support at 1080p res which clearly isn’t right!

The 4K model appears to support a range of 1080p modes.. but in practice it could be incorrect. I may just go for it and if it’s not up to the job return it for a 1080p model. The interlace aspect shouldn’t be an issue since most of my stuff is progressive, the only issue was Atomiswave, but I can switch it to 31khz.

Will list my Iiyama monitor on eBay and put the funds towards the 4K and hope it’s compatible with all OSSC modes like other models. May sell off my mx6000 crt too, but I’m still not certain the OSSC is a replacement just yet!! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:08 am 


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Nevermind the 'TFT' it basically means LCD. To know which model is IPS or VA use their website's filter on the left to sort, because it's not always clearly written the descriptions and documentation.

Also no point in looking inside that 4K's user guide (I assume you still had the VX3211-4K in mind there) you seem to have missed what I said about it in my previous post; out of three 4K models only the VX4380-4K has the enlarged compatibility good for the ossc I was talking about, but it's an IPS.
if you ever change your mind to go IPS you might as well stick to the VX3211-mh and VX3211-2K-mhd (1440p)

Here's an extract from the VX3211-mh user guide pdf, this is what you must look for (note the '56Hz', don't pay attention to the resolutions);
Spoiler: show
Image

There might be VA alternative though, if you don't mind 1080p curved, the VX3216-scmh-W, but it is sold in the US and Asia only.
Otherwise the VG2739 is VA too and has a pivot stand.
I don't know these two models's worth otherwise (quality, performance, etc)

It is unfortunate for you that they don't have more VA models. Some time ago there were still some 32" 1440p VA panels on the market, now there are more 32" 4K VA, but not from ViewSonic...

Finding the ideal monitor is not easy at all, you start with only 2~3 of your own criterias thinking it is reasonable, then look and look around again, to realize there are maybe only 2~3 monitors available on a global market scale, that might do. :p
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:47 am 


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Xyga wrote:
Regarding intense flickering-induced screen burn it's not the VX3211 only, these days it is almost all IPS panel displays period (IPS, PLS) therefore the majority of them can't handle the OSSC's bob deinterlacing mode for longer than a very few consecutive minutes.


So the bob deinterlacing actually causes irreversible permament burn-in on IPS panels from just a few minutes of use?
I’ve seen image retention on old iMacs with static images and when not having a screensaver enabled, but that always cleared up perfectly within an hour or so.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:14 am 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
irreversible permament burn

Wha!? no, I never wrote that lol :lol: , it's not permanent, but in cases it can require running a pixels 'cleaning' video for several hours until all traces are gone.

edit: anyone with an IPS can try it, no need for a 480i bob'd source, for creating a bad case I recommend Progear's title screen, leave it running for a moment, depending on the panel this can take a few minutes or 10, 20, 30, maybe more.
after witnessing the marks and flickering areas, just leave an RGB pixels cleaning video running until it's all gone (find some on youtube, it's better to rip the one you want and run it with a video player)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:50 am 


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I always thought that “burn in” was permanent and “image retention” was temporary. Maybe I’m wrong? :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:06 am 


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You'll find people adding the terms 'permanent' or 'temporary' to both, I merely followed on the term Initial-d chose to use since I know what he means. If you don't do that it's impossible to have a conversation with people without brandishing a damn lexicon every post or two, you know like with 'scanlines' for instance, or when people mix-up the types of flicker and the relationship to persistence, etc
Yet when you do it, almost invariably someone will highlight the misuse, it's something we cannot escape. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:21 am 



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Does anyone know what chip set modders are using to give consoles their hdmi output? I know phonedork had a rundown on his N64 being able to de-interlace.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:15 am 


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Xyga wrote:
You'll find people adding the terms 'permanent' or 'temporary' to both, I merely followed on the term Initial-d chose to use since I know what he means. If you don't do that it's impossible to have a conversation with people without brandishing a damn lexicon every post or two, you know like with 'scanlines' for instance, or when people mix-up the types of flicker and the relationship to persistence, etc
Yet when you do it, almost invariably someone will highlight the misuse, it's something we cannot escape. :mrgreen:


I was genuinely not aware that people used the term both ways. I wasn’t trying to be an ass or anything :)
Maybe this is what leads to the claim that all OLEDs has a burn in problem, when really they don’t.
It’s a bit like how pirating games is now just called “playing backups” where people fail to realize that you can’t have a backup if you don’t own the original game. “Reproductions” is another great synonym for piracy that makes absolutely no sense :D


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:17 am 


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No not implying that was assy, I used to intervene about the right terms too, but now I shrug and adapt to the context whenever. can't blame ppl bc the internet will make anything confusing anyway. :p
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:36 am 



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I can't really say much on that subject other then sometimes people love a mint and all you want to do is play the damn game... * Shrug

Anyway my previous question is in relation to the ossc if we're to ever come up with a solution on interlacing.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:22 pm 



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headlesshobbs wrote:
I can't really say much on that subject other then sometimes people love a mint and all you want to do is play the damn game... * Shrug

Anyway my previous question is in relation to the ossc if we're to ever come up with a solution on interlacing.


The OSSC doesn't have a framebuffer and it would need one to do any sort of proper deinterlacing. Which would also necessitate at least one frame of lag, much like the Framemeister. It would require an entirely new hardware revision.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:00 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
The OSSC doesn't have a framebuffer and it would need one to do any sort of proper deinterlacing. Which would also necessitate at least one frame of lag, much like the Framemeister. It would require an entirely new hardware revision.


Higher quality deinterlacing does not force a frame of lag. You only need to keep previous fields around for reference while generating the current frame, but there's no need to delay anything.

(I'd kill for an OSSC with an optional FB! 100% display compatibility, high quality deinterlacing, full zoom & aspect ration control, YokoTate rotation, saving screenshots to the SD...)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:23 pm 


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Quote:
Higher quality deinterlacing does not force a frame of lag.

yes, it does.

Quote:
You only need to keep previous fields around for reference while generating the current frame, but there's no need to delay anything.

without any lag, you would HAVE to output the field (or frame created from that field alone) instantly. If you want to deinterlace two adjacent fields, you can only start to output a frame created from the 2nd field once once the first field is completed (and buffered). Hence a full frame buffer and hence a frame of lag.

Quote:
I'd kill for an OSSC with an optional FB!

we all would.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:47 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
without any lag, you would HAVE to output the field (or frame created from that field alone) instantly.


Not from that field alone. The current field would be output and saved to the framebuffer so it is available for the next field. The only latency would be from the deinterlacer which is probably only a few lines to detect motion.

As you are comparing the current field to previous field there is no frame of lag.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:12 pm 


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A higher quality deinterlacing algorithm does not need to introduce any lag. There are two basic deinterlacing techniques. Weaving the previous two fields together, retaining full resolution but creating combing artifacts with motion, and blending the previous two fields together, creating no weaving artifacts but reducing resolution. Basic motion adaptive deinterlacing just adds a heuristic to chose between weaving and blending based on the estimated motion.

For the above to work we only need to buffer fields, which does not introduce any lag, and refer to past fields, which also does not introduce any lag. There are of course fancier algorithms, but even they just reference already available data.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:55 pm 



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In either case, there is not enough memory available on the OSSC to store any of that information for any amount of time, AFAIK, so the point is moot.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:16 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
In either case, there is not enough memory available on the OSSC to store any of that information for any amount of time, AFAIK, so the point is moot.


https://www.anandtech.com/show/13940/xi ... 8k-support

Speaking of moot points, I wonder how much these are going to cost. Also, can anybody recommend a good 8k display that's 18x compatible (with the SNES)?


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