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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:35 am 



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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
The biggest drawback of BFI is not flicker, at least at 60Hz. The big drawback is a huge loss of brightness as a result, and current OLEDs are already limited in their brightness. And it's still far from the motion resolution of a CRT, but definitely a nice step forward.

The latest LG OLEDs can do 900+ cd/m² peaks and ~600 cd/m² nominal on real-world video when fed a HDR signal and ~400 cd/m² all day long on a all-white SDR test pattern. Even with the brightness cut in half from BFI, that's way brighter than the display calibration standard of 120 cd/m² or a bright office lighting standard of ~150 cd/m². Arguably lacking for good HDR, but for legacy SD/HD stuff with SDR brightness, that should be enough.


To my eye it was not enough when I have a CRT outputting the same picture right next to it. Whites look grayish in comparison when BFI is on. If you don't have a CRT for comparison right next to it and you get used to it over time it's probably not that bad.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:41 am 



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fernan1234 wrote:
To my eye it was not enough when I have a CRT outputting the same picture right next to it. Whites look grayish in comparison when BFI is on. If you don't have a CRT for comparison right next to it and you get used to it over time it's probably not that bad.

Depending on the CRT, that CRT will also be calibrated to 9300k instead of the 6500k you'll see on modern displays, which will contribute to the issue. You'll need to manually calibrate the OLED to 9300k for things like arcade games and older Japanese games anyways. Somebody could have cranked up the output voltage on that flyback at some point as well.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:12 am 



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I think the problem with BFI goes beyond a white balance issue. Maybe you've seen it in action in person on this year's OLEDs and may have a different opinion, but to me engaging BFI kinda makes not just white but all colors look a bit muddied, as if you're looking at the picture through smog or a room with a lot of smokers. You can kinda get used to it to some extent.

Again, I think it does a pretty decent job at clearing up motion. It's definitely preferable to frame interpolation. But it's still a big compromise. Something else will be needed to make OLEDs or any future flat panels a true contender to definitively replace CRTs for retro gaming.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:08 am 


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Fully satisfying motion sorcery for retro-gaming purposes, especially where real sources are involved, will likely never happen on LCD and OLED.
We either stick to CRT and plasma, or wait for a future display tech that might do it (in decades? never really?)

Or, you know, good LCDs and OLEDs aren't complete disasters motion-wise either if they're not 50"~75" behemoths we sit just in front of at like 1/4 of the recommended distance...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:27 am 


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marqs wrote:
You might want to try "Full TX setup" in OSSC compatibility options in your display permanently loses picture during a mode switch.

Quick update: I had the chance to finally do some testing with the new fw, last night. Tried out several XBOX games for a couple of hours - with 'Full TX setup' > on - and experienced zero re-sync issues (no long or permanent black screens). As random as they get, that used to happen quite regularly, at least once a session, so that's very encouraging. :)

Thanks again! ^_-


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:52 am 


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Xyga wrote:
Fully satisfying motion sorcery for retro-gaming purposes, especially where real sources are involved, will likely never happen on LCD and OLED.
We either stick to CRT and plasma, or wait for a future display tech that might do it (in decades? never really?)

Or, you know, good LCDs and OLEDs aren't complete disasters motion-wise either if they're not 50"~75" behemoths we sit just in front of at like 1/4 of the recommended distance...


For what it's worth, I actually really like sample and hold displays for 30fps games, as they smooth out the video quite nicely. On a plasma with perfect motion clarity 30fps looks a bit off due to the weird double image effect you get.

I would obviously prefer that method if I could choose between the two. Just saying that it's not all bad :D I really only have to adjust for the blur when playing Sonic, and it usually takes me a few minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:15 am 


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paulb_nl wrote:
just boot up gbihf-ossc.dol+cli for 360p and for 240p just boot gbihf-xrgb.dol+cli


I above quote a statement that’s several months old because I cannot find documentation anywhere else that mentions this very basic, very important distinction in how the modern GBI software modes are designed.

The gc-forever wiki talks about the following parameter:
Code:
--format=<ntsc|pal|pal-m|ntsc-50|pal-60|custom|custom-m|hd60|hd50|hd48|hdcustom>


However I cannot find anywhere a summary of what “hd60” or “custom-m” or any of the other modes actually are programmed to be. Has firebrandX or anyone else published dedicated optimal timings profiles for the gbihf-ossc and gbihf-xrgb variants specifically? Do the “-ossc” and “-xrgb” suffixes have any meaning behind them that associates them with those devices? Can’t I use the gbihf-ossc mode with the framemeister, and the gbihf-xrgb mode with the OSSC?

The recent OSSC firmware gives very pronounced attention to the 360p mode but I’m very interested in the 240p modes and what their optimal timings are (and which mode ultimately has the least lag and most native frame rate).

Anyone who can point me in the right direction, would be very appreciated :-)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:11 am 


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awe444 wrote:
Anyone who can point me in the right direction, would be very appreciated :-)

Not sure it can be of any help, but I played around a bit with the GBI and my OSSC, last night, after quite a long time: as cool as it was to run GBA games fullscreen for the first time, I didn't fall in love with the 360p optimized 'GBI mode'. Aside from the noticeable jettery area right in the middle of the screen - which I recall it requires some fiddling about with the GBI itself - I just think it looks way too large for its own good... Plus, I'm part of the minority who likes and extensively uses scanlines, and I don't like the effect in that mode at all, it doesn't look right with that kind of graphics.

On the other hand, I found standard GBIHF to work pretty amazing, right off the bat, coupled with this FBX's profile:

http://www.firebrandx.com/OSSC/OSSC%20-%20Nintendo%20Game%20Boy%20Interface%20Optimal%20Timing.txt

In spite of it being based on an older firmware (and video mode), and dialed in using a Nintendo component cable on an NTSC console, I can confirm it works perfectly fine with GBIHF - I only had to tweak H. Backporch - on a PAL system, with a csync RGB scart cable (from Retro Gaming Cables) as well. GBIHF itself seems pretty much perfect too, as I didn't notice anything odd/glitchy, during my tests.

Keep in mind I use a 27" PC monitor as my main retro display, so I sit relatively close to it, and the window - that seems to be too tiny for some - feels perfectly acceptable and clear to me personally.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:17 pm 



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Anyone or Firebrandx have tips for Optimal PSOne timings through ossc?

When playing sotn I am noticing the backgrounds get a bit blurry or move as my character moves (then they stop when I stop).

Edit: seems to happen on a PVM as well so maybe its just a bad design decision


Last edited by MidOrFeed2015 on Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:09 pm 



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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
Anyone or Firebrandx have tips for Optimal PSOne timings through ossc?

When playing sotn I am noticing the backgrounds get a bit blurry or move as my character moves (then they stop when I stop).


Are you using 240p pass through?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:03 pm 


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They are listed here: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?titl ... al_timings
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:11 pm 


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FBX wrote:
paulb_nl wrote:
I have changed the timings for Generic modes all the time. The OSSC automatically chooses the right resolution in the list but for NTSC 240p the resolutions are:

Passtrough/Linex2: 240p
Linex3: 4:3 960x240, 16:9 1280x240
Linex4: 1280x240
Linex5: 1600x240

You do need to turn off Allow TVP HPLL 2x to keep a stable phase when setting optimal timings in Generic modes.


Okay I will look into this and confirm if it works on my end. If 1280x240 for 4x is in fact hooked to Generic mode, this means I can make a splendid 32x profile. I'll post my results after looking into this.


BTW, had some time to check into this, and while you can edit advanced timing settings as you showed for each Linex mode, the problem is the aspect ratio is forced to a 4:3 box. It doesn't let you 'truly' optimally time pixels in a square pixel format, so it's a bust.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:59 pm 


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It should be possible to circumvent even if the display or capture card is forcing 4:3. For the example of 1024x240 you mentioned, in 4x mode H.active should then still be 1280, such that the frame is 4:3, while the content is 1024 wide. In theory, at least...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:14 am 



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H6rdc0re wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
Anyone or Firebrandx have tips for Optimal PSOne timings through ossc?

When playing sotn I am noticing the backgrounds get a bit blurry or move as my character moves (then they stop when I stop).


Are you using 240p pass through?


Line5x at 1920x1080.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:15 am 


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Harrumph wrote:
It should be possible to circumvent even if the display or capture card is forcing 4:3. For the example of 1024x240 you mentioned, in 4x mode H.active should then still be 1280, such that the frame is 4:3, while the content is 1024 wide. In theory, at least...


Edit: Tried again and was able to stretch the pixels to fit the correct 4x scale. Unfortunately, the 4-point sampling just makes it look dirty:

Image

Versus 1 point sampling:

Image

However, this may be my only choice for 32X due the shift overlay.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:52 am 



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I have been following this thread for awhile, reading pages after pages.

I have had a Framemeister before but I sold it, didn't like all the hoops and quirks. I love scanlines, I love my CRT but I hate how it acts funky on the edges and without calibration my OCD drives me nuts. Also it's huge.

Finally decided to maybe try the OSSC but then I read about all the monitor/TV incompat issues. Anyway.. read all the info about the VX3211 and am interested. My only issue is that 5x SNES problem as SNES is my favorite console. But I found this NA model you guys mentioned and it's half off now:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0787 ... 0DER&psc=1

This might be what I go to, I saw the post about using 4x mode on the last few pages as well so this should be a good monitor to use :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:20 am 


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Hey guys,

Are there any currently for sale 27" computer monitors that work well with the OSSC, but also have low input lag and play well with modern PC games? 4K resolution would be a plus. I'm trying to avoid having to buy a dedicated 4K TV for the OSSC, so a compatible computer monitor would kill two birds with one stone!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:53 pm 


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eric90000 wrote:
Hey guys,

Are there any currently for sale 27" computer monitors that work well with the OSSC, but also have low input lag and play well with modern PC games? 4K resolution would be a plus. I'm trying to avoid having to buy a dedicated 4K TV for the OSSC, so a compatible computer monitor would kill two birds with one stone!

HUGE disclaimer: it's a TN display, so - if it's not for you - feel free to ignore the rest. :)

If you're still here: Asus VG275Q (1080p 27" gaming monitor).
Input lag is a non-issue, works with every OSSC video mode I tested so far (minus 480i/576i Line3x laced, and I didn't really dig into GBI 360p too much), supports all PAL resolutions I've had the chance to try (PAL50 and PAL60 with the original XBOX, GameCube and PlayStation2), it can be rotated in both directions (so, it accomodates older shmups that didn't come with extensive display settings), and doesn't suffer from temporary image retention, should you want to play with interlaced games without worrying about it.
Oh, and it's relatively inexpensive too.

For me personally, it's pretty much perfect and I'm still using it on a regular basis as a 'retro' display, but:
- scaling capabilities are pretty limited, so scanlines in Line4x look awful (once again, I love the way 240p > Line2x optim. looks so it's not really an issue to me)
- it's a TN panel, so don't expect astonishing colours. To be honest, it's far from terrible - I think it looks pretty good actually, after a lenghty calibration - but yeah, be aware
- it's labeled as gaming monitor, so the build quality is far from being 10/10, and the design can be tacky in some places

Last summer I was this close to switch to its 4K 28" cousin, just to be able to enjoy Line4x with scanlines without any hassle, yet I had to pass since it unfortunately lacked the double pivot feature, which is a godsend (and an absolute must have) to me.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:32 am 


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Apologies for the double post.

Is it normal to get 480i - on a PAL GameCube, using a CSync RGB scart cable - from GBI Standard, straight out of the box? I boot up the DOL file, using a Media Launcher and the files from the latest downloadable pack (no Swiss, no tweaking around...) and it says 480i, on top of looking unmistakably interlaced.

I'm just curious if it's supposed to work that way on my setup, or if I'm doing something incredibly stupid, since HF and SR editions produce a beautiful 240p image (especially HF, thanks to FBX and his optimized profile). No real issues with 360p mode either.
As far as I remember, I was also getting 240p - with the same exact hardware - from the older GBI (the one that came with the LL and ULL versions too), and a quick look at the Wiki didn't really clear things up to me.

Thanks in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:17 am 


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240p was the default for non-EDTV until December 2015 as a compromise.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:56 am 


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It's also written on the very top of the first post in your GBI thread, I'm a dummy.
Thank you for clarifying anyway! ^_-


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:27 am 


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Will the planned fully adjustable scanlines allow for something like that pixel overlay-filter in the GBA Consolizer? That looks really nice, and would be neat if the same could be achieved with GBI and the OSSC :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:37 pm 


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Galdelico wrote:
HUGE disclaimer: it's a TN display, so - if it's not for you - feel free to ignore the rest. :)

If you're still here: Asus VG275Q (1080p 27" gaming monitor).
Input lag is a non-issue, works with every OSSC video mode I tested so far (minus 480i/576i Line3x laced, and I didn't really dig into GBI 360p too much), supports all PAL resolutions I've had the chance to try (PAL50 and PAL60 with the original XBOX, GameCube and PlayStation2), it can be rotated in both directions (so, it accomodates older shmups that didn't come with extensive display settings), and doesn't suffer from temporary image retention, should you want to play with interlaced games without worrying about it.
Oh, and it's relatively inexpensive too.

For me personally, it's pretty much perfect and I'm still using it on a regular basis as a 'retro' display, but:
- scaling capabilities are pretty limited, so scanlines in Line4x look awful (once again, I love the way 240p > Line2x optim. looks so it's not really an issue to me)
- it's a TN panel, so don't expect astonishing colours. To be honest, it's far from terrible - I think it looks pretty good actually, after a lenghty calibration - but yeah, be aware
- it's labeled as gaming monitor, so the build quality is far from being 10/10, and the design can be tacky in some places

Last summer I was this close to switch to its 4K 28" cousin, just to be able to enjoy Line4x with scanlines without any hassle, yet I had to pass since it unfortunately lacked the double pivot feature, which is a godsend (and an absolute must have) to me.


Thanks for the info buddy! I'll look in to this monitor for sure :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:28 pm 


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when the Video LPF setting is at "auto" does the OSSC apply the 95MHz LPF to the VGA input?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:35 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
when the Video LPF setting is at "auto" does the OSSC apply the 95MHz LPF to the VGA input?

My interpretation of the description of the Video LPF settings is that, when set to Auto, the 95MHz LPF will only get applied to AV3 when the input is 1080p (probably also 1200p), regardless of format; and the 35MHz, 16MHz, and 9MHz LPFs will only be applied to 720p, EDTV, and SDTV modes respectively when feeding AV3 YPbPr or RGsB.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:41 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
when the Video LPF setting is at "auto" does the OSSC apply the 95MHz LPF to the VGA input?

My interpretation of the description of the Video LPF settings is that, when set to Auto, the 95MHz LPF will only get applied to AV3 when the input is 1080p (probably also 1200p), regardless of format; and the 35MHz, 16MHz, and 9MHz LPFs will only be applied to 720p, EDTV, and SDTV modes respectively when feeding AV3 YPbPr or RGsB.

I'm almost positive that the device is physically incapable of applying the narrower filters to RGB on AV3 (thus why it says "The last 3 settings are not effective with VGA input in RGBHV/RGBS mode.")


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:55 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
when the Video LPF setting is at "auto" does the OSSC apply the 95MHz LPF to the VGA input?

My interpretation of the description of the Video LPF settings is that, when set to Auto, the 95MHz LPF will only get applied to AV3 when the input is 1080p (probably also 1200p), regardless of format; and the 35MHz, 16MHz, and 9MHz LPFs will only be applied to 720p, EDTV, and SDTV modes respectively when feeding AV3 YPbPr or RGsB.

I'm almost positive that the device is physically incapable of applying the narrower filters to RGB on AV3 (thus why it says "The last 3 settings are not effective with VGA input in RGBHV/RGBS mode.")

Perhaps, but then why call out RGBS and RGBHV instead of saying they are completely ineffective on AV3?

RGBS and RGBHV on AV3 require TTL sync, but RGsB and YPbPr by design (or byproduct thereof) do not. I'm no marqs, but I imagine the pipeline used to bring down TTL sync to a lower voltage involves bypassing or avoiding the LPF, which means RGsB and YPbPr could very well be sent to the LPF instead.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:03 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
My interpretation of the description of the Video LPF settings is that, when set to Auto, the 95MHz LPF will only get applied to AV3 when the input is 1080p (probably also 1200p), regardless of format; and the 35MHz, 16MHz, and 9MHz LPFs will only be applied to 720p, EDTV, and SDTV modes respectively when feeding AV3 YPbPr or RGsB.

I'm almost positive that the device is physically incapable of applying the narrower filters to RGB on AV3 (thus why it says "The last 3 settings are not effective with VGA input in RGBHV/RGBS mode.")

Perhaps, but then why call out RGBS and RGBHV instead of saying they are completely ineffective on AV3?

RGBS and RGBHV on AV3 require TTL sync, but RGsB and YPbPr by design (or byproduct thereof) do not. I'm no marqs, but I imagine the pipeline used to bring down TTL sync to a lower voltage involves bypassing or avoiding the LPF, which means RGsB and YPbPr could very well be sent to the LPF instead.

you could be right about that, but it's beside the point of my original question

I was trying to find out if RGBHV/RGBS gets filtered under 95MHz or not on "auto"


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:25 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
I'm almost positive that the device is physically incapable of applying the narrower filters to RGB on AV3 (thus why it says "The last 3 settings are not effective with VGA input in RGBHV/RGBS mode.")

Perhaps, but then why call out RGBS and RGBHV instead of saying they are completely ineffective on AV3?

RGBS and RGBHV on AV3 require TTL sync, but RGsB and YPbPr by design (or byproduct thereof) do not. I'm no marqs, but I imagine the pipeline used to bring down TTL sync to a lower voltage involves bypassing or avoiding the LPF, which means RGsB and YPbPr could very well be sent to the LPF instead.

you could be right about that, but it's beside the point of my original question

I was trying to find out if RGBHV/RGBS gets filtered under 95MHz or not on "auto"

Right, and I said that the description on the wiki makes it look like it only gets applied when the input is 1080p (and possibly 1200p).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:40 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
Perhaps, but then why call out RGBS and RGBHV instead of saying they are completely ineffective on AV3?

RGBS and RGBHV on AV3 require TTL sync, but RGsB and YPbPr by design (or byproduct thereof) do not. I'm no marqs, but I imagine the pipeline used to bring down TTL sync to a lower voltage involves bypassing or avoiding the LPF, which means RGsB and YPbPr could very well be sent to the LPF instead.

you could be right about that, but it's beside the point of my original question

I was trying to find out if RGBHV/RGBS gets filtered under 95MHz or not on "auto"

Right, and I said that the description on the wiki makes it look like it only gets applied when the input is 1080p (and possibly 1200p).

ok but if narrower (<95MHz) filtering of RGBHV/RGBS inputs on AV3 is not possible, then what happens when you input a signal with LESS bandwidth than 1080p on AV3 in RGBHV/RGBS while in auto mode? does it get filtered under 95MHz or not at all?


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