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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:28 pm 


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Joined: 01 Apr 2014
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Been having a weird issue with this new firmware.

I spent all of yesterday converting all of my old profiles with the new site, setting by setting. For whatever reason, my SNES is now extremely noisy when capturing with my Vision E1s in line2x 256x240 optim 8:7.
The first level of SMW has a huge amount of noise and jailbars on the green background right at the start. Honestly, it looks awful.

I've double checked sampling phase, video LPF, reverse LPF, and sync LPF, and it just generally seems worse.

I'll try going back to the old firmware and trying it again when I get a chance, but any ideas? Nothing in my setup has changed at all.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:03 pm 


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Jademalo wrote:

I'll try going back to the old firmware and trying it again when I get a chance, but any ideas? Nothing in my setup has changed at all.


Two things to check:

E1S might be defaulting to 5-5-5 color space. It can make your OSSC source image look incredibly noisy, and you have to set it back to 8-8-8.

If that's not it, check H. samplerate just to make sure you have the right value. Use the 240p Test Suite checkerboard pattern to make sure.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:10 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
FBX wrote:
In other news: I'd like to request another feature in the optimal timing modes of the OSSC: 1024x240.
...
Now if we had access to 1024x240 optimal timing for the LineX menus, I would then have 4 sample points on the horizontal per pixel instead of just two. It would make this trick even better looking than it already is now.


Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but it seems to me you can just use generic mode, because the OSSC could not do any pixel repetition in such a mode. Think about it (example for 4x mode): 256x240 opt mode (in ”8:7” mode) pixel repeats 4 times per sample, 512x240 pixel repeats 2 times, thus 1024x240 would pixel repeat once, ie same as input, ie same as generic mode.
Just use a 4x multiple of the optimized sample rate in generic mode, and you’d achieve the same thing. Afaik (and I might be wrong) sample phase does have effect even in generic mode, just that normally it doesnt make much difference, but in this case you would need to adjust it to achieve perfect sampling.


I'm afraid generic mode does not allow the same trick, because you don't get to set optimal timing for it (as in H. samplerate). With what I was describing, you can optimally time the 1024 by setting the H. active and H. samplerate to perfectly land on each pixel for the background plane, and then the foreground's slight shift will have 4 point samples per pixel to help smooth out the misalignment.

Keep in mind what I'm doing is an advanced trick that most people won't understand even when I try to explain it. Generic mode does not allow the same trick that I am doing with 512x240 on a 320x240 image (and before people chime in about 512 not being a double of 320, remember the H. active function lets you extend 512 to 640 in the optimal timing menu).
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:16 pm 


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FBX wrote:
Two things to check:

E1S might be defaulting to 5-5-5 color space. It can make your OSSC source image look incredibly noisy, and you have to set it back to 8-8-8.

If that's not it, check H. samplerate just to make sure you have the right value. Use the 240p Test Suite checkerboard pattern to make sure.


-FBX



Awesome, totally forgot about 5-6-5 and 8-8-8.
I was using the window to quickly check rather than OBS, and that has 5-6-5 by default. Setting it back to 8-8-8 helped a ton. Phew, I thought I was going crazy =p

It's still not perfect, I've got perfectly vertical bars across the whole image, but I think that's the ghosting capacitor issue. I really need to get around to getting Voultar's amp kit and that cap...

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:20 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
For the near future I would really like for the OSSC being able to make the 1st and 5th line the scanline.

looks terrible for me. I have been battling this kind of scanline rendition on quite a few emus in the past. Why would you prefer that ?


Here is a picture from a bvm (capture from one of phonedork´s videos)

Image

Here you can see the "color scanline" goes from thin to thick in both directions (up and down) depending on brightness. With the OSSC you don´t get this effect, you can have the hybrid effect above (top alignment) of below (bottom alignment), but not in both directions.

Anyway, even with the "split" mode I mention before, it wouldn't be the same. On the yoshi picture you still get a dark portion between scanlines, even on the parts where the color blooms. On the OSSC you might get this (I'm just speculating here) with an option that allows something like this:

5x:
5th row: dark
4th row: hybrid
3rd row: regular
2nd row: regular
1st row:hybrid

maybe soon? the OSSC wiki says a custom scanline option is on the to do list, but I understand the memory is full and it´s hard (or impossible) to add more options.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:18 pm 


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Have you tried it ? You can create these kind of scanlines in many emus (Magic Engine for example). Doesn't look good. And I get the idea in regard to the BVM example - believe me.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:14 pm 


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awe444 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
is this version using the new CPU core?


I’m curious about this as well. As of this new update, how much free space is left?
v0.82 has zero-riscy core running the housekeeping/control tasks. There's now over 8kB free space which enables implementing some features like fully customizable scanlines and OSD, but it's not enough for anything that requires extra line buffers.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:21 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
For the near future I would really like for the OSSC being able to make the 1st and 5th line the scanline.

looks terrible for me. I have been battling this kind of scanline rendition on quite a few emus in the past. Why would you prefer that ?


I disagree, I think the 1+5 line pattern looks great and better approximates the symmetric flux profile of a real scanline pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:57 pm 



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marqs wrote:
v0.82 has zero-riscy core running the housekeeping/control tasks. There's now over 8kB free space which enables implementing some features like fully customizable scanlines and OSD, but it's not enough for anything that requires extra line buffers.


I have been testing vertical scanlines with an external SLG to get this low line count filter to work on lcd screens and would want to see if you or someone else can code this into the ossc to make it work.

Here's some image results.

https://ibb.co/fShy5L
https://ibb.co/cTb85L

Vertical scanlines are running in 960p, so all you have to do is run both horizontal and vertical at the same time. Also this means you'll have to figure a way to add scanline strength and hybrid adjustments to them independently, but I have faith this can be done easily enough.

This works better then trying to play some games that are overly pixelated on a some 900 line count monitor as it shows them the way they're supposed to be viewed in the first place. Fun part of this is when you get the right resolution for some games, the line count will do an exact line per pixel matchup (or x2 lines depending on resolution, sampling option), so it's all perfectly even rather then misaligned like most older crts.


Fudoh wrote:
Have you tried it ? You can create these kind of scanlines in many emus (Magic Engine for example). Doesn't look good. And I get the idea in regard to the BVM example - believe me.


The problem is most people are doing this on computer lcd's and that means you have no control over vertical sharpness settings. You need vertical sharpness to get the blend effect right or play it on an hdtv that has that option.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:30 pm 


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FBX wrote:
I made the first set of import profiles for the OSSC with custom labels (sans the last slot as I didn't use it). Please note that I found in my particular case I have to make Win32DiskImager write the file TWICE to the card before my OSSC will recognize the data (at least for firmware updates). So I always do this for profile imports as well. Also please note the 32X profile is tied to HD Retrovision cables, while the others are tied to RGBS SCART input.

As usual, sampling phase, H. backporch, and V. backporch are random variables on a console/cable case-by-case basis, so you may still need to adjust these for your given setup. Here's the import file link:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/ossc_profiles_fbx.zip

Simply go into the settings option and look for the import function.

Cheers!

-FBX

Hey FBX, can you post the JSON code from this file? I uploaded the settings, and they work great. All consoles that I'm using (most of them) are spot on with the settings you have included (and thank you for providing this file! :) ). However, I have a couple I'd like to add/delete. For instance, I don't have a Sega MS, and would like to replace that profile with one for CPS1/CPS2.

Granted, I can simply change the settings through the OSSC's menu and then save them; but I don't believe there is a way to change the name of the profile via the OSSC menu, and I'm just trying to keep things tidy.

Maybe there's another way to do this, but I'm not seeing it.

If possible to post the JSON code, I think I can solve my problem with that. Much appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:57 pm 


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NoAffinity wrote:

If possible to post the JSON code, I think I can solve my problem with that. Much appreciated!


Sorry about that. I posted the download on Twitter, but forgot to do so here:

https://t.co/ErshCF946T

Just copy and paste, then edit labels and attributes as you need.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:18 pm 


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FBX wrote:
NoAffinity wrote:

If possible to post the JSON code, I think I can solve my problem with that. Much appreciated!


Sorry about that. I posted the download on Twitter, but forgot to do so here:

https://t.co/ErshCF946T

Just copy and paste, then edit labels and attributes as you need.

Perfect, exactly what I needed. Thank you again for putting these together! :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:57 pm 



Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 120
FBX wrote:
NoAffinity wrote:

If possible to post the JSON code, I think I can solve my problem with that. Much appreciated!


Sorry about that. I posted the download on Twitter, but forgot to do so here:

https://t.co/ErshCF946T

Just copy and paste, then edit labels and attributes as you need.


thanks for these.

do you have any profiles for 5x 1920x1080 as well? Can't seem to dial in the H. samplerate perfectly. Maybe a multiple of 427 that works with 4x? Will any other settings need to be reconfigured if using 5x?

I notice in your profiles you keep the gains at 26 but in your youtube video you up it to 40. Any pro/con to doing this?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:25 am 


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FBX wrote:
people won't understand even when I try to explain it.


Correct, I do not understand what you are going for in this case lol. :D
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:33 pm 



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Posts: 247
FBX wrote:
I'm afraid generic mode does not allow the same trick, because you don't get to set optimal timing for it (as in H. samplerate).


Why would you not be able to set optimal timing for generic mode?

A 1024x240 mode would not be different to generic mode with equal timing settings.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:07 pm 


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paulb_nl wrote:
FBX wrote:
I'm afraid generic mode does not allow the same trick, because you don't get to set optimal timing for it (as in H. samplerate).


Why would you not be able to set optimal timing for generic mode?

A 1024x240 mode would not be different to generic mode with equal timing settings.


All I know is when you go to advanced timing while in Generic 4:3 mode, it's not hooked to a specific resolution in that list and so nothing lets you adjust the settings for it. I mean, I could be wrong, but nothing I tried seemed to be hooked into Generic mode.

Harrumph wrote:

Correct, I do not understand what you are going for in this case lol. :D


Yeah I got that the moment I read your first reply. It's MENSA-level OSSC settings work I'm doing, and I know exactly why I'd need a 1024x240 optimal timing mode in order to make it more effective.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:45 pm 


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...it’s not hooked to a specific resolution...
Spoiler: show
Neither is optimized mode really, it’s just pixel repetition which is different between 256x240 and 320x240 mode. Still very intrigued how you envision pixel repetition would work in the 1024x240 mode you propose. Or you mean some kind of interpolation of the 3 ”in between pixels” into one pixel?

Just curious.

And I would maintain, if there is no pixel repetition then, like paulb_nl seems to agree, there is no practical difference from generic mode.


EDIT: reading paulb_nls answer below I finally understand what you meant by "hooked to a specific resolution". So this was all based on a misunderstanding from the beginning. Of course you can adjust h.samplerate and all the rest in generic mode. Put my old reply in spoilers.
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Last edited by Harrumph on Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:51 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 247
I have changed the timings for Generic modes all the time. The OSSC automatically chooses the right resolution in the list but for NTSC 240p the resolutions are:

Passtrough/Linex2: 240p
Linex3: 4:3 960x240, 16:9 1280x240
Linex4: 1280x240
Linex5: 1600x240

You do need to turn off Allow TVP HPLL 2x to keep a stable phase when setting optimal timings in Generic modes.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:24 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 85
naz wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
For the near future I would really like for the OSSC being able to make the 1st and 5th line the scanline.

looks terrible for me. I have been battling this kind of scanline rendition on quite a few emus in the past. Why would you prefer that ?


Here is a picture from a bvm (capture from one of phonedork´s videos)

Image

Here you can see the "color scanline" goes from thin to thick in both directions (up and down) depending on brightness. With the OSSC you don´t get this effect, you can have the hybrid effect above (top alignment) of below (bottom alignment), but not in both directions.

Anyway, even with the "split" mode I mention before, it wouldn't be the same. On the yoshi picture you still get a dark portion between scanlines, even on the parts where the color blooms. On the OSSC you might get this (I'm just speculating here) with an option that allows something like this:

5x:
5th row: dark
4th row: hybrid
3rd row: regular
2nd row: regular
1st row:hybrid

maybe soon? the OSSC wiki says a custom scanline option is on the to do list, but I understand the memory is full and it´s hard (or impossible) to add more options.


The varying thickness of scanlines that you see there can be produced by the OSSC even without hybrid scanlines, but I think it's really up to how your TV/monitor handles or upscales the signal it gets from the OSSC. On my LG OLED the scanlines vary in thickness depending on the brightness of the color displayed, surprisingly like on a CRT (though less dramatic for darker colors and more rounded/less pointy at the edges), BUT only when using x3 i.e. when upscaling 720p to 4k (generic, I didn't try any optimized settings) and on non-PC mode. Any other combination resulted in the fake-looking uniform scanlines that seem to be the norm.

I found this using 100% scanlines on the OSSC. Adding any preferred percentage of hybrid scanlines will add to the effect. At the time I thought that I had finally found a replacement for CRT, but of course that didn't last and now my OSSC is just sitting there looking pretty. Still, it's nice to have as a backup.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:11 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
I found this using 100% scanlines on the OSSC. Adding any preferred percentage of hybrid scanlines will add to the effect. At the time I thought that I had finally found a replacement for CRT, but of course that didn't last and now my OSSC is just sitting there looking pretty. Still, it's nice to have as a backup.


What was the nail in the coffin for you?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:12 am 



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Maybe my previous post can change his mind?

I do get differing levels of scanline thickness, but you really have to rely on your tv's scaler and settings to make that effect happen.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:21 am 


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Indeed, depending on the next scaler in the chain (built-in or external) and your display's properties you can get scanlines varying in thickness.

In x5 mode over a 1080 or 1200 display though (1:1 pixel mapping) I can only get that with the help of an external scaler in the chain (VP50 Pro in particular for me since it features workable fine control over both the scaling and interpolation quality even in 1:1 situations)

Guess with OSSC hybrid scanlines + fitting scaler (built-in or external) + OLED's natural per-pixel brightness properties, you get the best non-emulation combination for simulating that effect.
Over an LCD it's only half-convincing because you get the shape but not really the live brightness variation only self-emitting displays can actually produce.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:58 am 


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Didn't have the chance to try the new firmware yet, so I'm asking out of curiosity: is it possible to name the profiles on the OSSC as well, or is that only doable through the web app?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:22 pm 


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paulb_nl wrote:
I have changed the timings for Generic modes all the time. The OSSC automatically chooses the right resolution in the list but for NTSC 240p the resolutions are:

Passtrough/Linex2: 240p
Linex3: 4:3 960x240, 16:9 1280x240
Linex4: 1280x240
Linex5: 1600x240

You do need to turn off Allow TVP HPLL 2x to keep a stable phase when setting optimal timings in Generic modes.


Okay I will look into this and confirm if it works on my end. If 1280x240 for 4x is in fact hooked to Generic mode, this means I can make a splendid 32x profile. I'll post my results after looking into this.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:23 pm 



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bobrocks95 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
I found this using 100% scanlines on the OSSC. Adding any preferred percentage of hybrid scanlines will add to the effect. At the time I thought that I had finally found a replacement for CRT, but of course that didn't last and now my OSSC is just sitting there looking pretty. Still, it's nice to have as a backup.


What was the nail in the coffin for you?


Motion persistence inherent to flat panel display technology was the main issue.

I really really wanted to make the transition to a flat panel+OSSC. I think we'll get there but it's probably gonna take a few more years.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:44 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
I found this using 100% scanlines on the OSSC. Adding any preferred percentage of hybrid scanlines will add to the effect. At the time I thought that I had finally found a replacement for CRT, but of course that didn't last and now my OSSC is just sitting there looking pretty. Still, it's nice to have as a backup.


What was the nail in the coffin for you?


Motion persistence inherent to flat panel display technology was the main issue.

I really really wanted to make the transition to a flat panel+OSSC. I think we'll get there but it's probably gonna take a few more years.


I'm kind of unsure why OLED is still using sample-and-hold when its pixel response time could allow it to be impulse-driven (at least I think that's what was holding back LCDs?). I guess when LG is the only company making the panels and they have no competition, there's no reason to drastically improve anything. Maybe there are longevity concerns too if being impulse-driven would require more brightness to counteract the lesser amount of time the pixels are on?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:38 pm 


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Galdelico wrote:
Didn't have the chance to try the new firmware yet, so I'm asking out of curiosity: is it possible to name the profiles on the OSSC as well, or is that only doable through the web app?
Currently it's only possible to name them using the web app.

bobrocks95 wrote:
I'm kind of unsure why OLED is still using sample-and-hold when its pixel response time could allow it to be impulse-driven (at least I think that's what was holding back LCDs?). I guess when LG is the only company making the panels and they have no competition, there's no reason to drastically improve anything. Maybe there are longevity concerns too if being impulse-driven would require more brightness to counteract the lesser amount of time the pixels are on?
Some OLEDs already support BFI which is a step towards that direction. Their motion clarity is closer to CRT and plasma, but come with the price of some flicker. Speaking of motion clarity, refresh rate tests in the display test suite fw can also be used to evaluate motion clearness of a panel.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:50 pm 


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Sony has rolling scan on OLED professional monitors.

I think Fudoh mentioned a couple specific models, but I don't recall the details.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:53 pm 



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The biggest drawback of BFI is not flicker, at least at 60Hz. The big drawback is a huge loss of brightness as a result, and current OLEDs are already limited in their brightness. And it's still far from the motion resolution of a CRT, but definitely a nice step forward.

The rolling scan of pro OLEDs has drawback of its own too, apparently. There really won't be something good enough for motion in a while, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:59 am 



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fernan1234 wrote:
The biggest drawback of BFI is not flicker, at least at 60Hz. The big drawback is a huge loss of brightness as a result, and current OLEDs are already limited in their brightness. And it's still far from the motion resolution of a CRT, but definitely a nice step forward.

The latest LG OLEDs can do 900+ cd/m² peaks and ~600 cd/m² nominal on real-world video when fed a HDR signal and ~400 cd/m² all day long on a all-white SDR test pattern. Even with the brightness cut in half from BFI, that's way brighter than the display calibration standard of 120 cd/m² or a bright office lighting standard of ~150 cd/m². Arguably lacking for good HDR, but for legacy SD/HD stuff with SDR brightness, that should be enough.


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