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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:23 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2015
Posts: 63
CobraKing wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
dang I didn't know about the Upsample2x feature for 480p. here I was asking for a 3x 480p mode when this thing was here all along. It cleans the image up very nicely.


3x would still be nice for 4K screens though, if it's possible.


@bobrocks95 do you think the TV's upscaling of 480p content wouldn't be decent enough?


Line 2x does a much better job than passthrough for me.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:11 pm 


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CobraKing wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
dang I didn't know about the Upsample2x feature for 480p. here I was asking for a 3x 480p mode when this thing was here all along. It cleans the image up very nicely.


3x would still be nice for 4K screens though, if it's possible.


@bobrocks95 do you think the TV's upscaling of 480p content wouldn't be decent enough?


Line2x could look really nice on a 4K screen, I don't know, if that's what you're getting at. If you mean straight 480p, personally speaking, I haven't seen even a 1080p screen that handles 480p well. It's usually too soft for my liking, even my Sony W7.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:24 pm 



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On that note, is there any chance line3x could be implemented for 640x400 in the future? My PC-98 looks pretty good already at 2x, but 3x to match the native resolution of my 1920x1200 monitor would be really cool.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:34 pm 


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Sirotaca wrote:
On that note, is there any chance line3x could be implemented for 640x400 in the future? My PC-98 looks pretty good already at 2x, but 3x to match the native resolution of my 1920x1200 monitor would be really cool.


Did you try adjusting the sampling settings? That sounds like something you can do already. I don't know how good it will look, though.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:01 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
Sirotaca wrote:
On that note, is there any chance line3x could be implemented for 640x400 in the future? My PC-98 looks pretty good already at 2x, but 3x to match the native resolution of my 1920x1200 monitor would be really cool.


Did you try adjusting the sampling settings? That sounds like something you can do already. I don't know how good it will look, though.

No, as far as I can tell, there's no way to get line3x for 640x400 right now. Only passthrough and line2x are supported.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:19 pm 


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Sirotaca wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Sirotaca wrote:
On that note, is there any chance line3x could be implemented for 640x400 in the future? My PC-98 looks pretty good already at 2x, but 3x to match the native resolution of my 1920x1200 monitor would be really cool.


Did you try adjusting the sampling settings? That sounds like something you can do already. I don't know how good it will look, though.

No, as far as I can tell, there's no way to get line3x for 640x400 right now. Only passthrough and line2x are supported.


True. It wont be full screen. The best image is a 480p linex2 output as 960p active inside a 1200p frame.

What I mean to say is that the OSSC should be able to deliver a boxed 1:1 960p on the screen.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:29 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
True. It wont be full screen. The best image is a 480p linex2 output as 960p active inside a 1200p frame.

What I mean to say is that the OSSC should be able to deliver a boxed 1:1 960p on the screen.

Well, I'm talking about 24kHz 640x400, not 480p. 3x 640x400 would fit neatly into a 1920x1200 frame.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:43 pm 


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Sirotaca wrote:
orange808 wrote:
True. It wont be full screen. The best image is a 480p linex2 output as 960p active inside a 1200p frame.

What I mean to say is that the OSSC should be able to deliver a boxed 1:1 960p on the screen.

Well, I'm talking about 24kHz 640x400, not 480p. 3x 640x400 would fit neatly into a 1920x1200 frame.


I'm curious: What source is 640x400 at 24fps?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:46 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
I'm curious: What source is 640x400 at 24fps?

HSync, not VSync. It's 70Hz VSync.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:47 pm 



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Posts: 127
Need to post this info here since during July I have some time to work and play with some old consoles.

First, remember my post reporting the Donkey Kong Country 2 situation where the sky would "flicker".
Found what was causing the issue.

I tried Voultar's C11 capacitor swap to remove ghosting.
Tried with a 470nF and didn't check it properly. I could see the sky flickering on my PVM too.

So I wapped it with a 560nF and problem solved.

Also, I posted in other thread about the "waves" I could see in the Final Fantasy 3 screen.
After trying different PSUs I tried measuring the voltage regulator since I have swapped the 7805 for a 78s05.
I was reading 4.75v.

Tried another 78s05 and same problem.

So I bought a new 7805 and the problem went away and I'm getting steady 5v on the output.

So, my problem was the 78s05. Not sure if both I got were defective or what but everything is fine now.


And lastly my SNES works with my Sony X900E in x5 and 1200p. But I never hooked it directly to my TV, it is using my receiver in passtrought.

The funny thing is, using the input closer to the HDMI output makes it unstable and loosing sync.
Using the input further away gives me a steady picture.

I know this may sound retarded on my end but could the lenght of cables or the internal of the receiver make any difference?
Just an example, I have a 12 meters cable that can pass 4k HDR and 4:4:4 chroma just fine from my pc to the receiver and the TV but I have to use the closest input to the output for it to work.
If I move it further away it looses sync. So it's the opposite compared to the OSSC but it also makes difference.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:49 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
I'm curious: What source is 640x400 at 24fps?

24.8kHz h-sync, 56.4Hz v-sync. Used by Japanese PCs like the NEC PC-98 series and Sharp X68000, as well as some arcade hardware I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:01 pm 


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Sirotaca wrote:
orange808 wrote:
I'm curious: What source is 640x400 at 24fps?

24.8kHz h-sync, 56.4Hz v-sync. Used by Japanese PCs like the NEC PC-98 series and Sharp X68000, as well as some arcade hardware I believe.


Okay. 56.4Hz. That makes more sense. :)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:09 am 


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Unseen wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
so 3x 480p is off the table unless the new soft CPU will free up enough resources for 1440p

It's a limitation of the transmitter chip, freeing up resources in the FPGA won't change that.
The FPGA is also pushed close to its limits (speed-wise) at current ~165MHz max pixel clock, so there's no easy way to add support beyond 1200p unless you start reducing horizontal resolution.
Sirotaca wrote:
On that note, is there any chance line3x could be implemented for 640x400 in the future? My PC-98 looks pretty good already at 2x, but 3x to match the native resolution of my 1920x1200 monitor would be really cool.
It might be possible to add generic line3x support for 384p group of modes.
XtraSmiley wrote:
Is there a timeline for an OSSC 2? One thing I'd like to see is a way to play vertical games on a horizontal monitor (tate in yoko monitor). I know from what I've read this will likely introduce some lag, but a guy seemed to overcome this in 2008, it's been 10 years, isn't there some way to do this now?
Like with most hobby projects, there are no definite timelines. It's not a technical challenge to add support for +-90deg rotation if you have a framebuffer available.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:03 am 


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marqs wrote:
It's not a technical challenge to add support for +-90deg rotation if you have a framebuffer available.

This would be so convenient for those who use PC monitors that pivot in one direction - usually 90° clockwise - and want to play older shmups that didn't come with advanced display settings (and can only be rotated 90° counterclockwise).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:45 pm 


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Does anyone know of a good, low latency, 1600x1200 4:3 monitor that supports every OSSC mode, especially 1600x1200 Line5x?

Wanting something that can do full size pixel accurate 5x without pillarboxing, and I figure there'll be something super cheap used that I could pick up. There's the Dell 2007FPb, but that apparently has quite a lot of input lag. There's also the Samsung Syncmaster 204B, and I'm fairly sure i've heard that 5x works on that. Plus it has a swivel stand for tate mode.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:29 pm 


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Jademalo wrote:
Does anyone know of a good, low latency, 1600x1200 4:3 monitor that supports every OSSC mode, especially 1600x1200 Line5x?

Wanting something that can do full size pixel accurate 5x without pillarboxing, and I figure there'll be something super cheap used that I could pick up. There's the Dell 2007FPb, but that apparently has quite a lot of input lag. There's also the Samsung Syncmaster 204B, and I'm fairly sure i've heard that 5x works on that. Plus it has a swivel stand for tate mode.


If you want a 4:3 and inexpensive PC monitor, why not shop for a CRT PC monitor? I have two that handle 1600x1200. No display processing lag. No motion blur or persistence blur. Just get the real thing.

Also, you will be able to feed 480p line doubled and get full screen with no shimmering. You can feed inputs without worrying about native panel resolution.

---

One last thing, Amazon sells monitor mounts and stands for digital monitors that rotate freely. You don't have to replace a monitor or buy an expensive video processor to tate a desktop size monitor.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:34 pm 


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Quote:
Also, you will be able to feed 480 line doubled and get full screen with no shimmering.

have you really ever seen a LCD that introduces shimmering by rescaling the input signal ? I guess you'll much more likely with your average scaling blur.

The 1600x1200 21" NECs I used until a few years ago were nice. You don't really get much input lag, but the response time of the panels was massive. I don't think panels changed much during the times in which 21" 4:3 screens were available. If you don't have any specific space limitations, maybe a WUXGA panel (1920x1200) in a more modern display would be a better choice ?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:46 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Also, you will be able to feed 480 line doubled and get full screen with no shimmering.

have you really ever seen a LCD that introduces shimmering by rescaling the input signal ? I guess you'll much more likely with your average scaling blur.

The 1600x1200 21" NECs I used until a few years ago were nice. You don't really get much input lag, but the response time of the panels was massive. I don't think panels changed much during the times in which 21" 4:3 screens were available. If you don't have any specific space limitations, maybe a WUXGA panel (1920x1200) in a more modern display would be a better choice ?


Yes. Both the BenQ xl2720z and xl2420g introduce shimmering with non integer scaling factors. There's no scaling filtering. I guess that's rare. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with them because I hate blur.

They handle motion very well and actual display lag is ~2ms at the top and bottom (~18ms) of the screen.

Still, I can't see the wisdom is purchasing anything besides a nice 4:3 PC CRT in this case. A 15" isn't expensive, big, or heavy--and the OSSC output "just works". No worries about lag or response time.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:04 pm 


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Before going crazy about picture quality (basically before I started visiting this forum regularly), I used my OSSC with a ~2007 5:4 monitor (Nec 1990sxi) and I was quite happy. There was some blur, but it was bearable to me (at that time). A nice plus was the 1280x1024 native res. which, along with 1:1 mode, allowed for non-interpolated 4x240p and 2x480p (with vesa sampling). Lag was 20ms.

I am still browsing the internet on a 5:4 panel to this day :) Nec ea193mi, it's got a superior panel than the old one, but they removed the 1:1 mapping :(


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:57 am 


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orange808 wrote:
If you want a 4:3 and inexpensive PC monitor, why not shop for a CRT PC monitor? I have two that handle 1600x1200. No display processing lag. No motion blur or persistence blur. Just get the real thing.

Also, you will be able to feed 480p line doubled and get full screen with no shimmering. You can feed inputs without worrying about native panel resolution.

---

One last thing, Amazon sells monitor mounts and stands for digital monitors that rotate freely. You don't have to replace a monitor or buy an expensive video processor to tate a desktop size monitor.


I've got a BVM-20F1E, I'm good for CRTs.
The main reason I'm looking at this is for both portability, and when the CRT goes belly up eventually. Since 4:3 monitors are fairly uncommon nowadays, I want to grab one before they're hard to come across.

Also I know, just I noticed it came with one which was a nice bonus =p


Fudoh wrote:
The 1600x1200 21" NECs I used until a few years ago were nice. You don't really get much input lag, but the response time of the panels was massive. I don't think panels changed much during the times in which 21" 4:3 screens were available. If you don't have any specific space limitations, maybe a WUXGA panel (1920x1200) in a more modern display would be a better choice ?


A modern display would work, but really I'm just wanting something 4:3 for the cleaner footprint. Plus the fact that I'm looking at maybe £20 vs £300, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:15 am 


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In terms of PQ quality, built quality, tate-ability I really liked my NEC 2180UXs and 2190UXs. Maybe you can find one cheap.

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:54 am 


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Seems like the;

NEC MultiSync P212

and

EIZO S2133

are still available new.
Whorishly expensive though, and of course untested.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:12 pm 



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ossc has done a great job at showing my snes's disgusting jailbars :cry:

hope its an easy fix


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:34 pm 


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Oh man, that looks great Fudoh, exactly what I was hoping for. Guess I'll have a look for one of them.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:04 pm 


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Yeah, that NEC looks cool. Appreciate the left pivot as well, more convenient than the majority of today's monitors, that can only be rotated to the right (when they can be rotated to begin with).

Fudoh, when you said 'massive response time' you basically meant ghosting and/or blur, am I right? I guess it's not an issue on those models Xyga mentioned above... Prices are truly insane, though.

Jademalo wrote:
There's also the Samsung Syncmaster 204B, and I'm fairly sure i've heard that 5x works on that. Plus it has a swivel stand for tate mode.

Yep, it's the same display used for testing Line 5x over at VideoGamePerfection, in the early days of the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:38 am 


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Any IPS and VA panel from the pre-2010 era (approximately) was visibly less responsive compared to what we're used to these days, mainly due to the lack of worthy RTC/overdrive.

Dunno how those 1600x1200 monitors evolved though, are the current panels up to today's standards ? those haven't received any attention at all from reviewers since even before that time, because 1920x1200 basically took over the already niche segment.

Several of the latter 24" 16:10 have shown great performance at affordable prices, they'd be great multi-purpose monitors if it wasn't for the lack of 16:9 letterboxing for external sources that seems to cripple the entire category.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:21 am 


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Galdelico wrote:
Y
Jademalo wrote:
There's also the Samsung Syncmaster 204B, and I'm fairly sure i've heard that 5x works on that. Plus it has a swivel stand for tate mode.

Yep, it's the same display used for testing Line 5x over at VideoGamePerfection, in the early days of the OSSC.


Oh nice, that's super good to know.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:27 am 


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Quote:
are the current panels up to today's standards

no, I think the only reason that they're still available is that companies might need drop-in replacements with the same measurements.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:43 am 


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they might bear the same old slow panels as before then...tough choice (well, sometimes pure performance isn't all that matters)
in this case it's indeed better to go for used units.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:09 am 


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Bit of a weird question, but I'm curious - With the current hardware of the OSSC, would it be possible to make a firmware variant that had a forced locked output refresh rate regardless of input and accepting the tearing that comes with it?

I'm mostly thinking for games like RE2 on the N64 where the resolution changes constantly. If both 240p and 480i were set to the same output resolution (either 2x/passthrough or 4x/2x), then having a locked refresh should result in the OSSC not having to resync with the display on every change. (I think?)

I know this would be doable with a framebuffer, but my main interest is if it's doable without. Yes it may not be ideal quality wise with the tearing/stutter, but it should be lagless.


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