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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:12 pm 


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Syntax wrote:
Thankyou very much for the all the details :)

Explains why I was having so many issues.

I was testing using av3 because I'm trying to route all my systems via an Extron Vga matrix.

Was thinking I'd use av3 and get everything done between RGBHV and RGBs but I guess not.


Have you considered adding a sync stripper and an Extron RGB unit?

Also, if you have a gscartsw, it has a LPF. So, the AV1 LPF on the OSSC isn't the only game in town.

Another option is to just feed everything as RGBsB on AV2. There's no reason why you need to use AV1. You can get great output and route everything througn one OSSC input with some planning.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:44 pm 


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I'm using a 12x8 (would love a 16×8) so I have outputs to spare.
Seems the easier option to just use av1.
I'll still have av3 connected for my GC DC and PS2 but I'll probably use those systems without the OSSC most the time id say, no real reason to add it to the chain unless I need HDMI out.
My LCD is vga/dvi.

I won't need a sync stripper, all my systems output csync.
I've fit a 470R resistor to my Extron to ossc av1 cable and also fit a 470R to the vga input on my GBS so everything should sit around a safe 600mv.

I do plan to try route blanking on vga pin 9 and also attempt to route composite video and other things on the spare vga lines of the Extron but I'm unsure if will work.

I own a GScart but I'll be selling it soon.
It's a very nice switch but it ain't no matrix :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:36 pm 



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Syntax wrote:
I own a GScart but I'll be selling it soon.
It's a very nice switch but it ain't no matrix :)

Everyone has their own use case. For me, I have a CrossPoint Ultra 88, but I use it like 3 1x2 distribution amps instead of a switch, because setting up separate presets for each input, and then having to hit the Preset button, then a number button, to effectively change inputs seems like a pain for everyday use.

Now, if I had a simple pushbutton switchboard to remote-control the CrossPoint that I could keep on my coffee table or near my array of consoles, or something that could tie into the CrossPoint to facilitate automatic input switching, then yeah, I'd start to use it like you and most other people seem to be using their matrix switchers.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:58 am 



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nmalinoski wrote:
Now, if I had a simple pushbutton switchboard to remote-control the CrossPoint that I could keep on my coffee table or near my array of consoles, or something that could tie into the CrossPoint to facilitate automatic input switching, then yeah, I'd start to use it like you and most other people seem to be using their matrix switchers.


You can do this with some units. Even a little wall mounted push-button thingamabob is available (mount the friggin panel on your coffee table!). More advanced Extron switchers can even use old LCD/LED? touchscreens by Creston and such. You can always hook it up a compatible device that's connected to your network (which the Crosspoints can be plugged in via Ethernet cable) and run it that way too. TONS of options....sadly the knowledge about these is almost lost since not many people ever ran them that way (manuals have like 50+ pages about running them remotely from PC's though). I even found an old iPhone app (discontinued and not available on the App store anymore) which could control the Extron wirelessly. Easiest would be a PC laptop or Windows tablet with their software on it (if you need the software let me know - think I have it and it's not available unless you have a 'partner' login on their site which they REALLY don't like to give out). It uses simple instruction set protocol I think but you can setup buttons in the GUI to setup those commands to switch to a certain system. This is on my VERY long to-do list to look into some more at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:16 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
Now, if I had a simple pushbutton switchboard to remote-control the CrossPoint that I could keep on my coffee table or near my array of consoles, or something that could tie into the CrossPoint to facilitate automatic input switching, then yeah, I'd start to use it like you and most other people seem to be using their matrix switchers.


You can do this with some units. Even a little wall mounted push-button thingamabob is available (mount the friggin panel on your coffee table!). More advanced Extron switchers can even use old LCD/LED? touchscreens by Creston and such. You can always hook it up a compatible device that's connected to your network (which the Crosspoints can be plugged in via Ethernet cable) and run it that way too. TONS of options....sadly the knowledge about these is almost lost since not many people ever ran them that way (manuals have like 50+ pages about running them remotely from PC's though). I even found an old iPhone app (discontinued and not available on the App store anymore) which could control the Extron wirelessly. Easiest would be a PC laptop or Windows tablet with their software on it (if you need the software let me know - think I have it and it's not available unless you have a 'partner' login on their site which they REALLY don't like to give out). It uses simple instruction set protocol I think but you can setup buttons in the GUI to setup those commands to switch to a certain system. This is on my VERY long to-do list to look into some more at some point.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll need to do some research first, but, if the CrossPoints can detect when an input gets a signal, I can hook up a Raspberry Pi to its serial port, poll for that sync information, and remote control it for automatic switching (and probably automatic configuration, too). Might even be able to do it over the network.

Related to that, on the VGP forums, I requested serial console access for the OSSC on the next revision (if we get a next revision) so I could similarly remote-control the OSSC for both automatic input switching and remote configuration.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:19 pm 



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Getting an OSSC tomorrow, does anyone know of a cheap monitor/tv that allows 5x mode? :D


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:26 am 


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Started my official repository page for OSSC optimal timing profiles. I'm redoing all the profiles based on the current 0.81 firmware, so only Neo Geo and Game Boy Interface are uploaded this far, but I'll be working most of the night to get as many console profiles as I can added to the links list:

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html

This new format will work out great as a quick reference guide, without all the confusing grids and ambiguous notes.

-FBX

PS: Had to pat myself on the shoulder for updating the OSSC logo to sort of match the T-Shirt colors :-P
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:26 am 


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FBX wrote:
Started my official repository page for OSSC optimal timing profiles. I'm redoing all the profiles based on the current 0.81 firmware, so only Neo Geo and Game Boy Interface are uploaded this far, but I'll be working most of the night to get as many console profiles as I can added to the links list:

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html

This new format will work out great as a quick reference guide, without all the confusing grids and ambiguous notes.

-FBX

PS: Had to pat myself on the shoulder for updating the OSSC logo to sort of match the T-Shirt colors :-P

That's great, thanks SO much.

Do you mind me asking if the Video LPF correction (from 9MHz to OFF) is purely based on your particular Genesis model? I'll check it out - with my Japanese unmodded MD2 console - later on tonight anyway, I'm just curious. :)

Also: compared to your previous suggestion of raising RGB Gain to 40, I found out upping Pre-ADC Gain from 8 to 9 (from my previous RGB gain values set to 28) provides a slightly brighter - as in, more pleasing - image, on my sRGB monitor profile. Still, I'm wondering if I'm doing it wrong, since the OSSC wiki only mentions to decrease Pre-ADC Gain, instead of the other way around.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:33 pm 



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FBX wrote:
Started my official repository page for OSSC optimal timing profiles. I'm redoing all the profiles based on the current 0.81 firmware, so only Neo Geo and Game Boy Interface are uploaded this far, but I'll be working most of the night to get as many console profiles as I can added to the links list:

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html

This new format will work out great as a quick reference guide, without all the confusing grids and ambiguous notes.

-FBX

PS: Had to pat myself on the shoulder for updating the OSSC logo to sort of match the T-Shirt colors :-P


Awesome, FBX, really appreciate it.

About timings and best settings, you mentioned in your video that for the SNES there's a bug when using 8:7 square pixels that a column of pixels in the left is cutout because of a bug in the OSSC.
A way to bypass it would be making 257 H active pixels which you commented are well supported by many TVs.
I tried it here in 5x mode and is working fine.

Is there any test pattern or specific game that have problems with that so I can test it here?
Or if it's working, leave it be?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:16 pm 



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So newb question...well, kinda newb because I shelved my OSSC months and months and months ago and just got to testing it out again, and have forgotten everything I've ever learned about it lol.

I see there's a new 1080p feature (over HDMI, mine is 1.6 w/ HDMI I believe with 0.81a firmware) which is the default for Line 5X mode. This snips some lines off the top and bottom I read in the Wiki (which I just put like 8 hours onto Castlevania: Symphony of the Night over the last week and I've never noticed anything being snipped off thankfully). So my question is:

Does this end any of the compatibility issues with certain TV's that the OSSC previously wouldn't work with? Since most all modern TV's support a proper 1080p signal? Can we finally tell people that the OSSC will work (in Line 5X mode) on ALL 1080p flatscreens?

I commonly see people using 3x and 4x - do they seem to think those look better than 5x or is it that 5x doesn't work on their TV or what? (I always like to see an image full-screen - well, at least top to bottom since this is 4:3 on 16:9 screens).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:23 pm 


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Castlevania runs with heavy underscan anyway, so you're not seeing the loss there.

The 1080p option does NOT make the OSSC any more compatible. It's still an "off-spec" timing which many TVs can't display. Compatibility got better on recent 4K TVs though.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:27 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
Does this end any of the compatibility issues with certain TV's that the OSSC previously wouldn't work with? Since most all modern TV's support a proper 1080p signal? Can we finally tell people that the OSSC will work (in Line 5X mode) on ALL 1080p flatscreens?

I don't think so. The OSSC still won't normalize any refresh rate weirdness, nor does it fix or work around any of the sync jitter found in the NES or SNES, and that 1080p frame feature doesn't apply to non-240p content, so anything that outputs, say, 288p, 480i/p, or 576i/p cannot be put into a 1080p frame. (As far as I know, anyway.)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:30 pm 



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Im newby also but I think 1080 output in L5X mode its not new with 0.81 firmware, in 0.78 was present. It does not resolve incompatibility issues cause you have still a non standard frecuency output that some tvs dont accept.

Maybe an expert can clarify

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:02 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
I commonly see people using 3x and 4x - do they seem to think those look better than 5x or is it that 5x doesn't work on their TV or what? (I always like to see an image full-screen - well, at least top to bottom since this is 4:3 on 16:9 screens).

In whichever output mode there's 5x displaying, and 5x displaying 1:1, two different scenarios.

The former will have upscaling applied on by the display like 2x, 3x and 4x do, so the quality will depend on the display's abilities in scaling.
The latter will look completely raw, like an emulator outputing integer scaling without any smoothing/interpolation.

The only way to see the 1:1 result of the latter is to use a display that accepts it anyway (very few I gather), or has a dedicated setting for that (like a handful of TVs do)
I've only experienced the 1:1 5x in 1080p so indeed there's a number of lines cut on top and bottom of the screen, so it's not recommended for 240p games, but with many 224p sources it's perfectly alright.

Appreciation of the 1:1 5x look depends on a number of factors such as just mentioned the source resolution size, but also if scanlines will be used or not, and the contents/type of game (some graphics look good in raw, some don't).
The main plus is that the picture is as clear as it can ever be, which is an advantage in fast moving games when you consider that LCD monitors and TVs still produce a noticeable amount of blur on their own. If you don't play sitting right in front of the screen like in a desktop environment, but rather from a chair/sofa distance, the rawness of the picture won't bother you, instead you will appreciate the improved clarity in motion.

Since the introduction of hybrid scanlines this 1:1 mode has become even more useable/appreciable and I really recommend it to those who have the luxury of it.
I haven't tried it with the special firmware that has like a 2x filter scaler included or something, but that might be even more interesting to some if fake scanlines arent their thing.
Without anything on top of it though, it's really too raw, too revealing, but I guess it can be used as an analysis tool there. :p

Last thing you can do if you own a VP50 Pro (maybe other high-end processors can do the same) is slightly modify the sharpness of the picture to add your own finely tuned level of smoothness to the picture.
Without an external processor it might be possible with some displays too if they still let you apply their own sharpness/processing on top even though it's a 1:1 situation.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:18 pm 



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Special firmware?
1:1 mode?

Where do you enable it?
I can see different outputs in 1080p 5x like 1200p but I had no idea there was a 1:1 mode somewhere.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:30 pm 


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fandangos wrote:
Special firmware?
1:1 mode?

Where do you enable it?
I can see different outputs in 1080p 5x like 1200p but I had no idea there was a 1:1 mode somewhere.


1:1 is a setting on the display's end. I've only personally seen it on a Samsung PC monitor I used to have, no clue how common it really is.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:44 pm 


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I meant it as in a 'without any scaling from the display' so 1 (source resolution) matching the 1 of the display (1 pixel to 1 pixel or 'pixel perfect integer scaling' in this case).
But yes indeed when it is porposedly available in the display's settings the option's called 1:1 or something with the same meaning.
Problem is that it's not really that common, and some displays will accept to do 1:1 in 5x with the OSSC even though there are neither options nor specs to reveal that without actually trying it.
When you buy a Full-HD monitor or TV for instance there's no guarantee that'll do it, your only clues will be from people who have reported it working on that particular model.
I think we're not paying eough attention because I read a couple of times people telling about their display being able to do 1:1 with not only 1080p but also 960p if that matters or something.
I don't know about the 1200p modes on 4K but for those it was my impression that it's rather nice/sharp scaling rather than 1:1, I'm not sure.

EDIT, the 'special' firmware is the one they've made that comes with scaling filters:
https://www.videogameperfection.com/2018/03/09/scaling-filters-feature/
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:25 pm 


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It can also be called ”Just Scan”, on LGs and Samsungs.
Or it is called ”Overscan”, ”Full Pixel”, ”Direct Pixel Mapping” etc

Tbh, most TVs do have this ability, it can just be hard to find it.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:28 pm 



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Oh my missunderstanding than. I expected it to be on the OSSC side.
I believe I've seen similar 1:1 modes called just scan.
My old sony had it the newer one is abscent it's just "normal" when outputting 1200p. All other options are greyed out.

Also thanks for the link on the special firmware.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:29 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
I think we're not paying eough attention because I read a couple of times people telling about their display being able to do 1:1 with not only 1080p but also 960p if that matters or something.

Ofc, it can be done with any input format. E.g. if one chooses it with 480p, it will only show a little box in the middle of the screen.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:33 pm 


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Yup that's what you'd expect from a 1:1 setting on a monitor, but I forgot to mention it was about TVs (Panasonic or Sony, not sure)
PS: never seen it working on LG's and never tried it on Samsungs...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:53 pm 


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I believe 1:1 mapping is different from any sort of Just Scan setting on modern TVs. Just Scan on my Sony gets rid of the default overscan and shows a regular 1080p image as 1:1 mapped, but if you feed the TV 480p Just Scan isn't going to stop it from scaling the picture up to 1080p.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:57 pm 


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I remember something like that from the last LG's I've owned as well (many years ago tho), today it was my understanding that newer 4K's like some Sonys and Panasonics have 1:1 integer-scaled modes for 1080p...and as I think I've read then; some also for 960p? (a Panasonic? maybe I misread...)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:51 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
I remember something like that from the last LG's I've owned as well (many years ago tho), today it was my understanding that newer 4K's like some Sonys and Panasonics have 1:1 integer-scaled modes for 1080p...and as I think I've read then; some also for 960p? (a Panasonic? maybe I misread...)


I double-checked and my Sony doesn't call it Just Scan, it's Screen Size +1, so maybe some TVs do have a Just Scan setting that will show 1:1? You're right that some integer scaled 1080p options have shown up on 4K sets, not sure I've seen it for 960p but it may be a thing. 1:1 seems a lot more common on monitors to me.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:12 pm 


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fandangos wrote:

Awesome, FBX, really appreciate it.

About timings and best settings, you mentioned in your video that for the SNES there's a bug when using 8:7 square pixels that a column of pixels in the left is cutout because of a bug in the OSSC.
A way to bypass it would be making 257 H active pixels which you commented are well supported by many TVs.
I tried it here in 5x mode and is working fine.

Is there any test pattern or specific game that have problems with that so I can test it here?
Or if it's working, leave it be?


The 8:7 alignment bug has since been fixed. I checked it last night with the 0.81 firmware and indeed the alignment is now perfect. So choosing 8:7 or 4:3 is now purely a matter of taste or situation. Though keep in mind the 4:3 mode isn't actually 4:3. In Line4x, it's considerably wider than 4:3 in that it stretches 256 out to 1280 (5x scale).

Galdelico wrote:

Do you mind me asking if the Video LPF correction (from 9MHz to OFF) is purely based on your particular Genesis model? I'll check it out - with my Japanese unmodded MD2 console - later on tonight anyway, I'm just curious. :)

Also: compared to your previous suggestion of raising RGB Gain to 40, I found out upping Pre-ADC Gain from 8 to 9 (from my previous RGB gain values set to 28) provides a slightly brighter - as in, more pleasing - image, on my sRGB monitor profile. Still, I'm wondering if I'm doing it wrong, since the OSSC wiki only mentions to decrease Pre-ADC Gain, instead of the other way around.


My particular Genesis with the subcarrier trace removed actually looked best with Video LPF turned off. I mentioned in the text file this may not be better than 9MHz for somone else's Genesis, so bear that in mind of course.

I no longer suggest color calibration settings. It's too subjective and too 'setup-specific'.

Xyga wrote:
I remember something like that from the last LG's I've owned as well (many years ago tho), today it was my understanding that newer 4K's like some Sonys and Panasonics have 1:1 integer-scaled modes for 1080p...and as I think I've read then; some also for 960p? (a Panasonic? maybe I misread...)


I've only ever heard of some Panasonic brand 4K TVs that feature an integer scale option for 1080p, but only for that resolution (i.e. not available for 720p).
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:40 pm 


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FBX wrote:
My particular Genesis with the subcarrier trace removed actually looked best with Video LPF turned off. I mentioned in the text file this may not be better than 9MHz for somone else's Genesis, so bear that in mind of course.

I no longer suggest color calibration settings. It's too subjective and too 'setup-specific'.

Fair enough. Thanks again.

Also, I noticed this (in your Sega Saturn 352 Res Mode Optimal Timing page):

Quote:
Post-proc. >

Vertical mask = 8 pixels (not needed if you're running line5X in 1920x1080 output mode on the OSSC)


Since many compatible titles I tried - such as Street Fighter: Real Battle on Film and Donpachi - run full screen, I personally set it to 0, with the idea of increasing it to 8 should I encounter a game featuring colored overscan to cut off.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:47 pm 


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FBX wrote:
I've only ever heard of some Panasonic brand 4K TVs that feature an integer scale option for 1080p, but only for that resolution (i.e. not available for 720p).

I've heard from Panasonics and Sonys for 1080p and indeed only 1080p, but I think someone mentioned 960p in some manner too...well maybe I'll find that post if I look around.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:44 pm 


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Galdelico wrote:
Also, I noticed this (in your Sega Saturn 352 Res Mode Optimal Timing page):

Quote:
Post-proc. >

Vertical mask = 8 pixels (not needed if you're running line5X in 1920x1080 output mode on the OSSC)


Since many compatible titles I tried - such as Street Fighter: Real Battle on Film and Donpachi - run full screen, I personally set it to 0, with the idea of increasing it to 8 should I encounter a game featuring colored overscan to cut off.


That's news to me. I always understood the Saturn ran both 320 and 352 with a vertical res of 224. So you're saying there's actual graphics in Donpachi that go past the 224 area and into 240? I'll have to download the ISO and check it out for myself. Not saying you're lying, but I just need to vet these things before I make that correction. Thanks for the heads-up!

Edit: Some lazy SOB decided to use mp3s for the audio tracks on the ISO image for Donpachi, which of course crashes the game when you try to start a stage. However, the title screen did show full 240p usage, so I've edited and re-uploaded the text files to only recommend 8 pixel vertical mask if the game is meant to run in 224p mode (will take a refresh to see the changes). Also added Dreamcast VGA Toro Box to the list.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:23 pm 


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FBX wrote:
That's news to me. I always understood the Saturn ran both 320 and 352 with a vertical res of 224. So you're saying there's actual graphics in Donpachi that go past the 224 area and into 240? I'll have to download the ISO and check it out for myself. Not saying you're lying, but I just need to vet these things before I make that correction. Thanks for the heads-up!

No problem, and thank you for double checking.
Another one is Street Fighter: RBoF (or SF: The Movie, as I believe it's called in the West), and while I also recall Winter Heat to run fullscreen, I'll have to verify it myself, as I'm not 100% sure I remember that correctly.

Edit - On a different topic, I've also found another SEGA Genesis title - Jim Power: The Arcade Game - that runs in 256x224.
As a beta of an unreleased game, It probably doesn't belong to your list, but since it's entirely playable I figured it was worth mentioning nonetheless. Also, should you ever include Japanese Mega Drive games, there's a couple of NTSC-J exclusives to put in as well (such as Gōketsuji Ichizoku/Power Instinct).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:48 am 


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Galdelico wrote:
Edit - On a different topic, I've also found another SEGA Genesis title - Jim Power: The Arcade Game - that runs in 256x224.
As a beta of an unreleased game, It probably doesn't belong to your list, but since it's entirely playable I figured it was worth mentioning nonetheless. Also, should you ever include Japanese Mega Drive games, there's a couple of NTSC-J exclusives to put in as well (such as Gōketsuji Ichizoku/Power Instinct).


Cool. If you feel up to it, try to make a text file for the Japanese counterparts that play in 256. The criteria is main gameplay, so even if menus or titles screens play in 320, if main gameply is done in 256, it counts for the list.

In the meantime, I spent most of the night coding my repository page to look even more retro with the SNES graphics, and I sectioned off each family of consoles according to company. Still a lot of work to do in the coming days, but it's getting there! (hit refresh to sync the latest content):

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html

-FBX
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