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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:15 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
If the real system was played on a CRT I think it's doing the game a misjustice if you don't emulate them with scanlines turned on. Many (not all) game designers took scanlines into account when they were developing the games since they knew they would be played in 240p on CRT TV's, so if the scanlines are missing you're not getting the full effect of the art they designed either. (or I guess being a CRT groupy, I'm all about the scanlines ;)


Yeah true enough! I was thinking that about the likes of Genesis/SNES, they look a bit sterile or bland without the scanlines to my eyes. PS1 era still would have been CRTs so I guess it's correct to use scanlines!


FinalBaton wrote:
I think scanlines looki great on those games. They act as a natural anti-aliasing of sort. Just play Medievil with or without scanlines, you'll see a way nicer picture with scanlines on. Same for MGS


That's funny, I did a full play through of Medievil on the PS1 a few weeks back! I used scanlines for the whole game and thought it looked great. I'm definitely leaning towards scanlines for basically all 240p content, might have to give the new beta firmware a go!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:37 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Now I have to investigate some tiny flickery colors parasites on the scanlines in x5 1080p mode I didn't have before...


May be the same as was reported in the vgp thread, something about changes to the pixel clock. It might be fixed already, but a problem was that Borti doesn’t have a Lx5 compatible display, so he couldn’t troubleshoot it directly.

https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... post-19829
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:19 pm 


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Yeah definitely looks like micro-glitches a bit everywhere. (checked cabling and PSU again to be sure but nope)

Defnitely great anyway, can't wait for the official release.

Oh and I'm probably the only bitch who'll wish there were more hybrid str. % steps :oops:
(just between 37% and 50% would be perfect)

:mrgreen: :arrow:

EDIT: tried w/ substraction and it's true that the colors seem more saturated and contrasted, but for some reason it is also more sensitive, I mean one step of hybrid str. shows a more brutal and visible change. This is where more steps would help imho.

EDIT: in x5 1080p mode (1:1), just 25% hybrid strenght is a very small change, yes, but enough to make a difference between the raw 'integer+blacklines' look and an already slightly more realistic one. This rocks.
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Last edited by Xyga on Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:07 pm 


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eric90000 wrote:
Speaking of scanlines....what's everyones opinion on using scanlines for 3D 240p games e.g. Metal Gear Solid, Croc, Crash Bandicoot etc?

I personally love them for anything 2D and 240p like Genesis, Super Nintendo etc, just not sure what to go with for the likes of PS1, N64 etc.


I actually think scanlines are even more important to me in old 3D games. I find most 2D games to look fairly visually appealing both with scanlines and without, but 3D games really show their age and scanlines soften the blow a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:13 pm 



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Edit: wrong thread.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:23 am 


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Xyga wrote:
Yeah definitely looks like micro-glitches a bit everywhere. (checked cabling and PSU again to be sure but nope)


I'll upload a build of the pull request version later this day. Please look if the problem persists.

Xyga wrote:
Oh and I'm probably the only bitch who'll wish there were more hybrid str. % steps :oops:
(just between 37% and 50% would be perfect)


Will take a look - should be able to be added quite quick.

Xyga wrote:
EDIT: tried w/ substraction and it's true that the colors seem more saturated and contrasted, but for some reason it is also more sensitive, I mean one step of hybrid str. shows a more brutal and visible change. This is where more steps would help imho.


Yes, subtraction is more saturated and contrasted, but this effects results from the effect that the mixed-colors become off in the scanline if you as you treat each color with an absolute value rather than with an relative amplification.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:04 am 


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When are we expecting a new official release with this included?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:48 am 



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I just wanted to say thank you to Borti for the work he has done on the hybrid scanlines. I actually use the hybrid scanlines with my original Xbox as back in the day I only ever played on a CRT TV and I just prefer that look. In general I do find that scanlines on PS2 games and Original Xbox games gives them a much more authentic and for me a sharper image especially for text. Now with the hybrid scanlines I've been able to create the effect that I saw back in the day when playing on my Toshiba CRT. It looks awesome and just as I remember.

Quick question, why do the scan lines look different when playing a game in 50hz as opposed to 60hz? I find that in 60hz the scanlines appear ever so slightly fatter?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:29 am 


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Quote:
why do the scan lines look different when playing a game in 50hz as opposed to 60hz?

50Hz has more lines - 288p instead of 240p, so the scanlines on 288p signals are thinner.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:37 am 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
why do the scan lines look different when playing a game in 50hz as opposed to 60hz?

50Hz has more lines - 288p instead of 240p, so the scanlines on 288p signals are thinner.


Ahh that makes sense, thank you. :)


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:21 am 


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Thanks borti! I'll try the updated test build when it's up and report.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:31 pm 


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beta build has been updated: https://github.com/borti4938/ossc/tree/ ... l/fw_build

Thanks to marqs new timing assignment approach(es), timing has been relaxed a lot. I also refined the step with of the hybrid strength to have 6.25% steps rather than 12.5%. Drawback is that it's limited to 175%, which should be enough, imo.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:47 pm 


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Just tried (hybrid) scanlines with 480i. In Line2x and Line3x mode, everything looks perfect; in Line4x mode however, the scanlines look... well... completely broken. Very thin and flickery. Is this a known problem?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:07 pm 


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Tried the updated test build

Ok borti you showed those little glitches who's the man: they're gone!

x5 1080p (1:1) is impeccable, and I love the finer strenght adjustments, makes it easier to find the sweet spot.
I could find use of every step from 12% to 50% over various base intensities from 62% to 81%
Some people will certainy like stronger settings but as someone who's into fine details I really find it better this way.
The maximum of 175% is pretty extreme so I guess even those who like a more brutal effect won't complain.

I went past 2x 3x 4x quickly without seeing anything abnormal, haven't tried 480i, but I'll have a look at that all next and report if I see something like Thomago.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:00 pm 


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Thanks a lot Borti & Paul! Really liking the new multiplication/hybrid scanlines! Seems a lot more natural to my eyes.

I'm using this 0.81 beta firmware on an older OSSC which doesn't have HDMI w/audio out...I've now got audio options in the menu that have no effect on the analogue output, is it safe to use this audio enabled firmware? I presume so.

So far the sweet spot on my 4K TV seems to be:

LineX3
Scanline Strength: 75%
Scanline Hybrid Strength: 37%
Scanline Method: Multiplication


I'd be interested to see other peoples preferred settings too, post em up!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:22 pm 


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My favourite isn't fixed but so far I think it benefits x5 1:1 the most by adding a subtle touch or realism to the otherwise very raw and artificial look of that mode.

this is what I like so far;

LineX5
Scanline Strength: 75% to 81%
Scanline Hybrid Strength: 25% to 50%
Scanline Method: Multiplication

...depending on the game.

x2, x3, x4 -> the benefits are there too but IMHO more difficult to adjust because of the display's scaling interpolation mixed in it.
I'll study that later.

@Thomago: tested on Sonic 2 vs mode:
480i 2x - ok
480i 3x - lost signal (what? thought I saw it working some other time)
480i 4x - super thin and messy lines, but isn't this how it's supposed to look? first time trying it honestly, dunno don't care much about interlaced.
I don't think hybrid scanlines have much interest for interlaced modes anyway (?)
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:43 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
480i 4x - super thin and messy lines, but isn't this how it's supposed to look? first time trying it honestly, dunno don't care much about interlaced.
I don't think hybrid scanlines have much interest for interlaced modes anyway (?)

Well, what I think it should look like is like 480i 2x, just sharper. I mean... why should they look messy in just that mode? Doesn't make sense to me (at least from a "scanline look" perspective; I don't know if anything technical is at play here). Also, this applies to non-hybrid scanlines as well.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:29 pm 


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guys, guys, guys, day after days following the topic here and on the vgperfection board and not a single snapshot of the feature in action...WTF?! Eventually I had to give it a try myself. The hybrid implementation is nice indeed. Already so much better than currently on the Super Nt, where scanlines completely vanish from anything even coming close to the upper end of the luminance range.

Given my OCD when it comes to scanlines settings, it's not an easy setting though. Too many options, too many variables (which is not a bad thing), which keep me from enjoying any games :mrgreen: Scanline density at ~ 75% and the hybrid setting slightly below that is my fav' so far. While multiplication tends to get a little dull from time to time, subtraction is just too much in terms of color saturation. It's fun for certain games, but unless you like to toggle forth and back all the time, multiplication is just the obviously wiser choice.

@Xyga: still not sure what's there to enjoy about scanlines on 4x or 5x. It still simply slooks like synthetic lines over an overly pixelated rendition of the game. I just firmly believe that scanlines don't really work without the additional scaling on the display's end (or using a shader which essentially does the same: adding scanlines before scaling).

And on a side note:

- the x3 mode for 480i sources sometimes hits a proper sampling settings which results in a very nice and sharp image, but sometimes the horizontal sampling is completely off. I found myself switching back and forth between x2 (bob) and x3 a lot and it's maybe a 1:2 hit ratio (two bad sample rates for every good one). The mode is usually just useful when using a secondary scaler, but the sharpness boost compared to x2 (bob) is huge and it does a lot for image stability as well. Due the required secondary scaling scanlines are hard to get right here, but without them, it's a very neat little bonus to have that mode available.

- why does x3 with generic 4:3 sampling exhibit a slight horizontal pixel jitter when used with 240p from a PS2 ? Is there any setting to counter this ? I prefer the AR compared to the slightly wider AR on the 320x240 tuned setting and I prefer the slightly less sharp pixel rendition. It better matches the vertical rescaling from 720p to 1080p by the display.

And on a even different side note:

- somebody recently commented on the vgperfection board that the 480x2 mode made the CII absolete when it comes to 480p upscaling. My 2 humble cents on this: the 480x2 mode is on the OSSC is great, even more so the option to double the horizontal sampling resolution, but it doesn't get us there QUITE YET. Using the OSSC you can either sample your 480p source in 720x480p or in 1440x480x2. In the second scenario the display gets a 1440x960p for further upscaling. This results in a rather course vertical resolution compared to the hoizontal sampling, which doesn't really match the soft sampling used on the horizontal. What the CII does instead is to directly sample the image in 1440x480p and then upscale it to 1080p. This means you basically get the horizontal upsampling from 1440p to 1920p (the same you get on the OSSC using 480px2 and 2x hor. sample rate) while you get the "softer" 480p to 1080p upscampling on the vertical, combining the best of both scenarios. I'll eventually take same snapshot samples to show this. But hey, the OSSC is a close second (and it has MANY other advantages).


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:34 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
guys, guys, guys, day after days following the topic here and on the vgperfection board and not a single snapshot of the feature in action...WTF?!

Haha, actually installed the new firmware expecting to take some photos, but the funky 480i 2x scanlines threw me off.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:49 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
guys, guys, guys, day after days following the topic here and on the vgperfection board and not a single snapshot of the feature in action...WTF?

Still own no decent card nor camera so it's really difficult to capture fine details. Sorry. ^^"

Fudoh wrote:
@Xyga: still not sure what's there to enjoy about scanlines on 4x or 5x. It still simply slooks like synthetic lines over an overly pixelated rendition of the game. I just firmly believe that scanlines don't really work without the additional scaling on the display's end (or using a shader which essentially does the same: adding scanlines before scaling).

Simple, as I've ranted a couple of times about that; clarity, especially in motion.
The typical details and colors softening and toning-down of scaling interpolation gets in the way of motion clarity in omni/multi-directional situations (less obvious simply scrolling forward, much more when lateral or up/down and diagonal), and thicker blank lines also do get in the way.
Using a LCD which produces its own degree of ghosting blur, whatever sophisticated crt~ish imitation that looks good when still or not too busy/fast, doesn't so much when things start to move, too many details are lost. A raw, full naked pixels and artifacts-free picture in comparison is visibly more competent.

So I'm looking for a compromise, a middle-ground with thinner blank lines and much more gentle softening/rounding, hurting colors and details less, for a picture satisfying both still and in motion.
Thats what I've been doing trying all sorts of things with MAME and custom .png's some time ago, although it's a very limited method it was a good way to experiment and realize a number of things (using customizable crt shaders is a better option but they're not as flexible as they seem, I've been delaying an in-depht comparative experiment. but emulators ar not my focus)

So, x5 1:1 on the OSSC has been the same thing I get in MAME (or RA) using integer scaling, except only with uniform dark blank lines and no other means to customize the looks beyond basic darkness intensity. Hybrid scanlines today are almost a game-changer bringing a little superior degree of realism to x5, with a feature normally seen only in shaders, so the useability in practice for gaming has just increased.
Still not the ideal I have in mind though, I need a tiny bit of very subtle and controlled softening to add to that (edit: think crisp and soft at the same time), x3 doesn't give me satisfaction yet it's the best default but still a bit too damaging for my taste, no monitor/tv I've tried has good and controllable-enough interpolation for what I want, only the 50 Pro does in its own way, but I'm looking for the simpler/universal more direct solution.
(x5 sure is looking better on my 32" right now, but I will still resurrect the DVDO combo again soon to see how hybrid mixes into it)

Regarding x4; I use it almost exclusively without scanlines for yoko/vertizontal shmups, it's the best details/blur compromise the OSSC has to offer for these games.

Of course again all I've said here is only with playing on your average 60hz s&h LCD in mind. If I had an OLED already I'd certainly wish for more sophisticated processing.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:12 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
Using the OSSC you can either sample your 480p source in 720x480p or in 1440x480x2. In the second scenario the display gets a 1440x960p for further upscaling. This results in a rather course vertical resolution compared to the hoizontal sampling, which doesn't really match the soft sampling used on the horizontal.

On the matter of Line2x480p vs. good 480p upscaling, another thing worth considering is that line doubling will completely defeat any kind of in-game antialiasing and reintroduce jaggies (and possibly make worse those that are already there). Upsample2x and post-scaling can only partially hide it. I posted a few frame grabs showing this sometime ago here.

But surely, not many 6th gen games had anti-aliasing, and in any case the added jaggies are possibly only noticeable on large displays.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:20 pm 


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Quote:
guys, guys, guys, day after days following the topic here and on the vgperfection board and not a single snapshot of the feature in action...WTF?!


I have a new 1080p capable capture device but it needs the DVDO Edge in tandem to do anything other than 2x so I can't do any good screenshots at the moment either, since my Edge PSU is off for re-capping.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:28 pm 


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Quote:
I have a new 1080p capable capture device

what did you get? I had a Datapath Vision RGB which had some problems with the mainboard I intended it to use with, so I switched to a Datapath VisionLC (two inputs, but HDMI only compared to the Vision RGB which does analogue as well). These both take EVERYTHING from the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:42 pm 


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Just a Avermedia Live Gamer 2 Plus Portable nothing exotic.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:13 pm 


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Out of curiosity, are there any plans for a new revision of the OSSC that adds in HDMI input support like the Framemeister has? In the Framemeister, you can scale HDMI inputs just like you can component and RGB, and this would be nifty for OSSC to have the same ability. The workaround I hear is to use a VGA converter box, but it would be interesting to know if that does anything to deteriorate the signal.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:49 pm 


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If your D/A converter isn't crap, the quality loss isn't an issue, but of course you're still limited to the basic line-multiplier modes of the OSSC. E.g. you can input a 480p signal and output is as 960p. For anything else in terms of more flexible scaling you're simply missing the neccessary memory.

What source did you have in mind in particular ?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:57 am 


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Fudoh wrote:

What source did you have in mind in particular ?


240 HDMI out from the Gamacube for example. I was curious to know if you could get such a signal into the OSSC, would it give you the full five multiplier choices, or just line double, or neither?
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:34 am 


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You'd get all the options up to 5x. Isn't there a new Cube output adapter in the works that will output both digital and analogue? I would be surprised if both ports didn't deliver the same quality.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:14 am 


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Japanese sms rgb question for some of you experts.

I have been getting some really odd issues with my jp master system that I recently picked up.


Rgb is naturally really dim so in my scart cable I decided to remove the 75 resistors before the caps on rgb. I left sync as is with the 470 resistor into the cap. This brightened up the picture nicely but causes sync drop outs all over the place with my ossc

The refresh rate on the display seems to keep changing and it goes from 260 to 262p and back again over and over. The red led also comes on a lot. When I put the resistors back it’s stable once again. I have now changed all resistance to 33 and the brightness is playable and stable now

My question is, why would slightly less resistance on the rgb lines cause sync instability like this?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:04 am 


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marqs wrote:
Firmware v0.80 is out:

* PCM1862 audio ADC parameters corrected (fixes audio quality issues with certain systems, e.g. some MD units)
* audio gain setting added (pre-ADC, +-12dB range)
* video test pattern updated (32 step grayramp)
* profile link option added (allows binding a profile to each logical input)


I just tried 0.80-aud. Forgive me if this has been mentioned. I think I came across a bug in the audio gain setting.

I set it to -12 before turning on a system. When I turned on a system it still seemed as loud as ever until I turned it up to -11 where it got significantly quieter. Going back to -12 at that point worked as expected.

I tried to save profile 0 at -12. Then turn off the system and restart it to see if audio issues persisted. The setting successfully loaded as -12 but had the same result as before where I had to increase the volume to -11 to see an effect.

Saving at -11 and restarting seemed to work as expected.

Thanks so much for that feature by the way! I do most of my gaming at night after watching TV for a bit. And I was constantly underestimating how much I needed to turn down the volume before booting a game to keep sound contained to the entertainment room. If it's possible to have a wider range of control in the future I'd definitely leverage that.


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