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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:23 pm 


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5x mode in 1920x1080p mode looks pretty spectacular on my LG 47". I haven't found a mode that this TV can't handle yet.

Is there any way to reduce the image cropping in 1080p mode? Top and bottom are cut a little bit, not a huge deal just wondering.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:26 pm 


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juji82 wrote:
I can confirm aswell that OSSC 5x line works with a VP50pro :shock:


8)

Its great waking up to news like this


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:33 pm 


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eric90000 wrote:
5x mode in 1920x1080p mode looks pretty spectacular on my LG 47". I haven't found a mode that this TV can't handle yet.

Is there any way to reduce the image cropping in 1080p mode? Top and bottom are cut a little bit, not a huge deal just wondering.

I was wondering: isn't this the expected normal result in 5x ? for instance with a 224 lines source like the MD there's -20 lines left out on the top and bottom, which shouldn't be a big problem since the console's output has a large underscan area.
Of course with 240 lines sources there's -60 lines top and bottom, so it's a bit more of a problem.

(I haven't tested this myself yet)
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:49 pm 



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When I was setting up my VP50 I tried to find a good default overscan settings that would hide all black bars, even if at the expense of cutting off some of the image and I found a 10% overscan setting worked pretty well for most my sources. Very few games had anything significant cut off at 10%.

240*5=1200, to get 1080 you will have to remove 10%. So really no change in my setup, though for some people and games 5x cropping will be too much.

eric90000: you said you haven't found a mode your TV can't handle yet, you do realize there's a 1600x1200 and a 1920x1200 option in the OSSC? You could try those. Those should display the full image, though I doubt a 1080p TV will show them (a 4K TV might).

VP50 (and VP50Pro likely) owners can adjust v.backporch to move the image up or down if needed, if the relevant information is only on either the top or the bottom of the image, but to display the full image I think the only option is 3x.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:19 pm 



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Xyga wrote:
eric90000 wrote:
5x mode in 1920x1080p mode looks pretty spectacular on my LG 47". I haven't found a mode that this TV can't handle yet.

Is there any way to reduce the image cropping in 1080p mode? Top and bottom are cut a little bit, not a huge deal just wondering.

I was wondering: isn't this the expected normal result in 5x ? for instance with a 224 lines source like the MD there's -20 lines left out on the top and bottom, which shouldn't be a big problem since the console's output has a large underscan area.
Of course with 240 lines sources there's -60 lines top and bottom, so it's a bit more of a problem.

(I haven't tested this myself yet)



Indeed, a bit too cropped for the PCE, half the Soldier blade's ship is cut at the bottom of the screen.

Still, picture quality in x5 really is amazing!!


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:27 pm 


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ZellSF wrote:
When I was setting up my VP50 I tried to find a good default overscan settings that would hide all black bars, even if at the expense of cutting off some of the image and I found a 10% overscan setting worked pretty well for most my sources. Very few games had anything significant cut off at 10%.

240*5=1200, to get 1080 you will have to remove 10%. So really no change in my setup, though for some people and games 5x cropping will be too much.

eric90000: you said you haven't found a mode your TV can't handle yet, you do realize there's a 1600x1200 and a 1920x1200 option in the OSSC? You could try those. Those should display the full image, though I doubt a 1080p TV will show them (a 4K TV might).

VP50 (and VP50Pro likely) owners can adjust v.backporch to move the image up or down if needed, if the relevant information is only on either the top or the bottom of the image, but to display the full image I think the only option is 3x.


Yeah I tried all three of the 5x resolution modes, surprisingly they all work on the TV! The catch is that scan lines are uneven in 1920x1200 and 1600x1200 unfortunately (TV only allows 16:9 and 4:3 aspect ratios in these modes and both look uneven). 1920x1080 is the only one that displays scanlines evenly (in "just scan" aspect ratio). The picture is really sharp and good looking in 1080p, I guess a little cropping is a worthy sacrifice for great picture quality.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:40 pm 


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When using 5x mode on my VP50 Pro I get these weird little horizontal lines about a centimeter long that flicker on and off. Always in the same place on the image (about 2-3 inches from the center of the screen horizontally, and randomly vertically).

They appear regardless of input source, and on two different OSSCs, I've tried different cables too, same problem. Anyone else seen them or have any ideas what causes it?
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:01 pm 


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wildchild22 wrote:
Well the new firmware fixes a big problem I had. Before the new firmware my OSCC and my new samsung 4k ks8000 would not accept any signal at all through the OSCC. Now with 0.76 if I use the passthrough option for all settings it works absolutely perfect.

I used to have to use my dvdo to get a pic but now this will cut the lag down hopefully and there is another device removed from the chain.

So anyone with a samsung set the oscc to passthrough and use dvi in the oscc setting and it works.
The samsung sees the signal as 1440x240p.
weird
I assume you have TX mode set to DVI? If set to HDMI, TVs should report signal as 720x240 due to explicit pixel duplication.

paulb_nl wrote:
jarp wrote:
Any reason LineX5 format is capped to 1920x1200?


You can increase V.active to 288 and decrease V.backporch to get 1440p.
Line5x modes for 288p assume a letterboxed (i.e. max 240 active lines) signal by default since that gives you correct aspect ratio. You can make those adv. timing changes if you want to go higher than 1200p, but increasing sampling rate and H. active to correct aspect might not work due to pixel clock limitations.

ZellSF wrote:
Uh, we've always needed too. If the cable is too thin or too poorly shielded, you get signal loss and/or very obvious image artifacts.

HDMI cable gauge is apparently measured in AWG, where lower is better, and of course if your cable run is longer and/or have higher bandwidth requirements (higher resolution, wider color range, audio) you need a better quality cable than if it was shorter or had lower bandwidth requirements.
Line5x modes generate 160+MHz pixel clock so bandwidth is a bit higher than standard 1080p (~148MHz pixel clock), meaning that good cables are a must. Turning off "Allow TVP HPLL2x" in sampling menu might help with (non cable-related) Line5x stability issues in some cases, but generally it's recommended to keep that setting on.

ZellSF wrote:
240*5=1200, to get 1080 you will have to remove 10%. So really no change in my setup, though for some people and games 5x cropping will be too much.
Yes, you'll need to either increase "V. active" or swap to a 1200p format to reduce cropping, but then it's no more 1080p output.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:41 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 419
marqs wrote:
ZellSF wrote:
Uh, we've always needed too. If the cable is too thin or too poorly shielded, you get signal loss and/or very obvious image artifacts.

HDMI cable gauge is apparently measured in AWG, where lower is better, and of course if your cable run is longer and/or have higher bandwidth requirements (higher resolution, wider color range, audio) you need a better quality cable than if it was shorter or had lower bandwidth requirements.
Line5x modes generate 160+MHz pixel clock so bandwidth is a bit higher than standard 1080p (~148MHz pixel clock), meaning that good cables are a must. Turning off "Allow TVP HPLL2x" in sampling menu might help with (non cable-related) Line5x stability issues in some cases, but generally it's recommended to keep that setting on.

ZellSF wrote:
240*5=1200, to get 1080 you will have to remove 10%. So really no change in my setup, though for some people and games 5x cropping will be too much.
Yes, you'll need to either increase "V. active" or swap to a 1200p format to reduce cropping, but then it's no more 1080p output.

Maximum output clock is 165Mhz according to the changelogs. Perhaps it's pushing the inputs a little past what they can handle as well?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:54 pm 


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Now that there are quite a few options and settings to tweak, it'd be cool to get a little database going for people's favorite profile settings.... On a console specific type of list. I know everyone's setup and display will be different, however it might be handy to look up the best possible settings for whatever console you're looking for.

Anyone got any NTSC PS1 preferences?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:33 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 2216
BuckoA51 wrote:
When using 5x mode on my VP50 Pro I get these weird little horizontal lines about a centimeter long that flicker on and off. Always in the same place on the image (about 2-3 inches from the center of the screen horizontally, and randomly vertically).

They appear regardless of input source, and on two different OSSCs, I've tried different cables too, same problem. Anyone else seen them or have any ideas what causes it?

ZellSF wrote:
Trying to zoom in for correct aspect ratio revealed that the VP50 isn't entirely happy with the 5x signal though, there were some very bad artifacts on the image when scaling horizontally. Tweaking the horizontal sample rate made them go away, but custom horizontal zoom settings is going to be a bit of a PITA on the VP50. Good thing it's not something you will have to deal with often.

TL;DR: Reset your VP50Pro zoom level to default and your OSSC horizontal sample rate to default and I'm guessing they'll be gone.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:43 pm 


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Fiddling with the frame and active AR settings seems to have got it.

Edit - As soon as you try to correct AR they come back, gah :(

Edit 3 - Found some settings that work

H. Samplerate 2057
H. Backporch 255

Very nice and sharp.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:08 pm 



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BuckoA51 wrote:
Fiddling with the frame and active AR settings seems to have got it.

Edit - As soon as you try to correct AR they come back, gah :(

Edit 3 - Found some settings that work

H. Samplerate 2057
H. Backporch 255

Very nice and sharp.

Yeah dealing with the zoom settings on your VP50Pro is probably as "fun" as it is on my VP50. People who want to do custom zoom settings for every single of their consoles are not going to like it.

Personally I'll only have two profiles: GBA and everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:05 pm 



Joined: 10 Nov 2016
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marqs wrote:
[
paulb_nl wrote:
jarp wrote:
Any reason LineX5 format is capped to 1920x1200?


You can increase V.active to 288 and decrease V.backporch to get 1440p.
Line5x modes for 288p assume a letterboxed (i.e. max 240 active lines) signal by default since that gives you correct aspect ratio. You can make those adv. timing changes if you want to go higher than 1200p, but increasing sampling rate and H. active to correct aspect might not work due to pixel clock limitations.



Ah thank you all. I was ignorant and did not realize / remember I have to re-do advanced timing settings for each LineNX mode separately. Nor did I understand the nature Line5x format setting. But marqs is right, cannot push sampling rate and H. active high enough, OSSC loses sync at some point.

Does not matter though. 4x mode works flawlessly and is pixel perfect unlike 5x could ever be. Small black bars on my 1440p monitor but does not matter - it is just perfect. Thanks marqs!


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:27 pm 



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I can confirm that as mentioned earlier there definitely is a bug with PS2 and 480p detection. Sometimes it's detected as 120hz. Switching source to something else and back works.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:05 pm 


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Very nice x4/x5 modes.
Small bug to report : vertical scanlines on those 2 modes are not properly rendered. Too thin & narrowly spaced.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:47 pm 



Joined: 08 Apr 2011
Posts: 81
my dvdo duo requires a change for 5x mode in sampling options
1536x240p

I used samplerate 2040
and h back porch 237


and it fixes the 5x not working. I expect this will fix the edge issues as well


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:03 am 



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awe444 wrote:
marqs wrote:
* 960i and 1080i support added


Just wanted to highlight this---it means the large number of PS2 games which can't be forced directly to 480p using GSM now can be played progressive (in linedoubled 480p =1280x960p). Select the (incorrectly-named) GSM mode "VGA 640x480i" (in fact it's 960i) and ensure the OSSC is set to RGsB input. Also make sure the scanlines are set to non-alternating mode and you'll get a flicker-free, true 480-line image. Best viewed at native res inside a 1080p frame without scaling to fullscreen, e.g. using a DVDO or XPC-4 processor between the OSSC and display.


Going to try this asap - but how do you set it up to display at native res in a 1080p frame without scaling using a DVDO?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:31 am 


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I need some help please.

I've been playing around trying to see if my TV will display any of the sweet 3x, 4x and 5x modes. The closest I can get is the mangled pic I posted in this thread yesterday. When I was messing around with various OSSC settings, I noticed that a couple of times my TV identified the signal from the OSSC as 1024 x 768. I didn't think much of it at them time, however, I'm now thinking that some more thorough investigation is warranted. I just need someone to confirm if my plan is on track.

Firstly, is 1024 x 768 a HDMI standard or a DVI standard? Given that this res only appears in the DVI Output menu on the Framemeister (not in the HDMI output) I'm assuming that it is a DVI standard. If so, this would suggest that my TV can handle at least 1 DVI res and that more investigation is warranted in order to fully investigate the possibility that my TV can in fact display any of the 3x, 4x and 5x modes.

First step in my plan is to use the Framemeister to establish which DVI resolutions my TV accepts. Then, dial in the OSSC settings so that it is outputting DVI at a resolution my TV is know to accept.

Given I know next to nothing about video standards, nor how hsynclen and all the various other sync setting on the OSSC work, I've been fumbling around in the dark like a chimp with a typewriter. In a post from Marqs (I don't recall where) there was a formula which shows how the various timer and sync setting relate to frame rate and/or resolution.

So, can someone knowledgable in this guff, tell me A) if this formula exists, what the formula is and if it can be used in the way outlined and B) any places where my reasoning is faulty.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:37 am 


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Ok I comeback for mys personal testing :

NeoGeo aes : line X5 worrks very well

Super Famicom 1chip2 : line X5 seems to not sync - I have to manage the sampling I presume

It goes like in this video around 24 - 28 min :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KMzc1NPhc8&t=1550s

I need more investigation :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:18 am 


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Updates!

LinesX5, at 1920x1200, works great (with no fiddling around, just some H/V backporch adjust) with the Mega Drive and the Mega-CD on my 4K monitor:

Image

Image

For some reason, though, the frame is still cropped - two colums of a few pixels each, left and right - with the Saturn, and this doesn't see to be fixable with H active setting either... Am I doing anything wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:57 am 


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bonzo.bits wrote:
I need some help please.
...
In a post from Marqs (I don't recall where) there was a formula which shows how the various timer and sync setting relate to frame rate and/or resolution.


Probably everything you need regarding the formula can be derived from this reply by Marqs

Regarding 1024x768, try to increase V.active to 256 in lx3 mode (256x3=768), then decrease V.backporch until you get a picture.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:16 pm 



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Galdelico wrote:
For some reason, though, the frame is still cropped - two colums of a few pixels each, left and right - with the Saturn, and this doesn't see to be fixable with H active setting either... Am I doing anything wrong?


I saw some cropping too left and right with the Nintendo64. These settings work for me:
H.samplerate 1980
H.synclen 150
H.active 1600
H.backporch 162


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:21 pm 


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@Galdelico: looking absolutely great! I assume this is sharper than the 720p output (we'd expect so!) but I'm curious; does your monitor still allow for a bit of sharpness adjustment at this level ?
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:36 pm 


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paulb_nl wrote:
I saw some cropping too left and right with the Nintendo64. These settings work for me:
H.samplerate 1980
H.synclen 150
H.active 1600
H.backporch 162

Thanks sir, I'll try and report back.
Just out of curiosity, are those numbers tied to the specific resolution/video out of the N64 - so requiring slightly different calculations, values and fiddling around in general, with the Saturn - or universal, for whatever source may appear similarly cropped in LineX5?

Xyga wrote:
@Galdelico: looking absolutely great! I assume this is sharper than the 720p output (we'd expect so!) but I'm curious; does your monitor still allow for a bit of sharpness adjustment at this level ?

It is sharper, greatly!
Keep in mind that my phone's camera is uberpants, so everything looks way clearer and more vibrant, in person... That said, sharpness level on my LG is set to zero, in those pics. You can crank it up with no weird artifacts on scanlines (as it happenend on my Asus 24"), but the more you push it upwards, the more you see awful 'unsharp mask' kinda results, which I genuinely dislike.

All in all, I really think LineX4 is my favourite Output, and the one I'm perfectly happy with all my 240p gaming. Sharp and vivid, with thick scanlines that start to look PVMesque from 43% onwards. LineX5 seems similar to LineX3, in its way to display thinner lines and a more emulator-ish picture, overall (that's my personal opinion, of course).


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:00 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
bonzo.bits wrote:
I need some help please.
...
In a post from Marqs (I don't recall where) there was a formula which shows how the various timer and sync setting relate to frame rate and/or resolution.


Probably everything you need regarding the formula can be derived from this reply by Marqs

Regarding 1024x768, try to increase V.active to 256 in lx3 mode (256x3=768), then decrease V.backporch until you get a picture.


The formula still has me thrown, but I can see where the numbers were pulled from so it's just a matter of taking the time to work it out.

However, the V.active increase and V.backporch worked a treat! Taking the V.backporch down to 3 gives 1260 x 768 at 3x. Thanks for the tip, have been stuck with 2x until now, and even in a non-native resolution the 3x is a nice step up. But Messing around with the V.active more gives other resolutions so I'll keep playing around until I find the closest to correct AR. Should the same logic work with adjustments H.active?

Also discovered that the VT60 can handle the following resolutions:

640 x 480
800x 600
1024 x 768
1280 x 1024
1280 x 768
1360x 768
1920 x 1080

Seeing as 1024 x 768 is the only 4:3 AR above 960 x 720, is there a way to make the OSSC use only the 960 x 720 pixels of the 1024 x 768 window? Now that I've found some cake, I might as well eat it too :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:29 pm 


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RocketBelt wrote:
awe444 wrote:
marqs wrote:
* 960i and 1080i support added


Just wanted to highlight this---it means the large number of PS2 games which can't be forced directly to 480p using GSM now can be played progressive (in linedoubled 480p =1280x960p). Select the (incorrectly-named) GSM mode "VGA 640x480i" (in fact it's 960i) and ensure the OSSC is set to RGsB input. Also make sure the scanlines are set to non-alternating mode and you'll get a flicker-free, true 480-line image. Best viewed at native res inside a 1080p frame without scaling to fullscreen, e.g. using a DVDO or XPC-4 processor between the OSSC and display.


Going to try this asap - but how do you set it up to display at native res in a 1080p frame without scaling using a DVDO?


Personally I've only used an XPC-4 to buffer the OSSC's 960p output to 1080p, but lots of people in this thread seem to be using DVDOs so likely someone will have advice.

For additional info and a list of example PS2 titles that benefit from this mode see this post on videogameperfection.com boards


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:21 pm 


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bonzo.bits wrote:
Also discovered that the VT60 can handle the following resolutions:

640 x 480
800x 600
1024 x 768
1280 x 1024
1280 x 768
1360x 768
1920 x 1080


Since it lists 1280x1024, I'd probably try the same as before but in Lx4, as 256x4=1024. This worked on my Philips TV, and if I choose no scaling on the TV, it displays it pixel perfect utilizing only 1024 of the full 1080 height, with the video data in 960 lines (or 896 for 224 line material).

Btw, I'll once again remind everyone to contribute to the vgp thread in my sig. :)
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:11 pm 


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So what device do i need to place between the OSSC and my TV to get x4 & x5 mode to display?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:43 pm 



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Posts: 152
^^
It's been asked before but the DVDO devices work quite well and appear to handle the 4X/5X modes. The prices on the aforementioned DVDO devices are trending upward though.

If your TV's a few years old and you think you can recuperate some money by selling it then it might make sense to purchase a newer TV that can accept these modes.


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